| Author |
Message |
Rusty Thompson (Rusty)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 8:50 pm: | |
I am just looking for some advise concerning rivets. I have a couple corroded panels on my 4104 bus and I have to replace them. I was intening to use solid rivets to replace the ones I took out so they would match the rivets that are currently on the bus, the upside of this method would be that the replacement rivets would be the same as the old rivets, that solid rivets are stronger than blind rivets and that it would only cost me about 100 dollars for all the tools and rivets... but from what I have read it seems that riviting with solid rivets is a skilled profession and I could damage the new skin on my bus if I messed up. So I found an alternative, Olympic Bulb-tite Structural Blind Rivets Shaveable Series. heres the link if anyone is interested
http://www.boltproducts.com/marson/blind-rivets-olympic-bulb-tite.html
(there at the bottom of the page) These seemed like a good solution they would be easy to use and would be a close match to what was originaly their. The down side is... their $369.00 for a box of 1000 if any one is doing the math thats .37 cents a piece plus another $175.00 for the special head shaver. Thats a whopping 444 dollar difference in cost. And I know that their is something else on my bus that I would rather spend 444 dollars on than rivets. So what I would like to know is what the people who have been doing this longer than I have think. Should I go with the costly blind rivets... or try my luck with the solid rivets... or is their a better solution. Any help would be appreciated I have work to do on my bus and this is realy stalling me out. Thanks for any help... |
T.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 9:36 pm: | |
Check the archives for mucho information on Rivets...
FWIW
RCB |
Rusty Thompson (Rusty)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:16 pm: | |
Thanks bishop I have looked at everything that has to do with rivets in the last 999 days ( several times trying differect varieations to get diffrent results) and Their wasn't anything that I found that awnsers my questions. If you know of a particular thread that has my awnsers just let me know I would love to read it. |
Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:46 pm: | |
Hi Rusty I don't know what they are called but my 4104 had the bottom panels of all the cargo bay doors replaced by the previous owner. The rivets that were used look exactly like the original rivets from the out side. From the inside however they looked alot like a pop rivet. I don't know how they are installed. They had used some other rivets that looked very nice and had the same size head as the original but you can see were they had a draw pin through the center like a pop rivet. They are similar to the ones you are looking at only on the inside they have a four jaw clasp that is forced to expand when the rivet is drawn tite. If you are interested I can look through my records the previous owner gave me with the bus to see if I can find info. on these. If I can't find anything I have kept in touch with the man I bought the bus from and we have become friends. I could contact him to see if he remembers where they had this done |
Cliff (Floridacracker)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:34 pm: | |
Rusty,
I have put over 3,000 new rivets in my 4905 during the roof raise and reskinning.
I used the shaved head rivets from Bylar rivet. The prices seem a little high per piece for bulbtite. The 1/4 " I used were .31 each as I recall and .37 if less than 1000.
Yeah, they are pricey compared to the solid but I thought it was well worth it as I was able to do the job by myself. Dont forget to get some Clecos to hold your panels in place.
If your worried about damaging the new skins with solid rivets, give it a try on your old panel before you remove them.
Cliff |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:57 pm: | |
Ever tried these:
Exploding Back Rivets. They do make them in larger sizes.....
I bought a box of the Bulb-tite Rivets at a yard sale for $3..!
( I love bragging about that!) They're nice to use, but you'll
need a tool that will take the larger shaft size (bought mine
at Harbor Freight - $12.95). The shaft doesn't always stay
solid in the rivet, however. Quite a few twirled when I ground
the shafts off, leaving the remaining shaft inside the rivet slightly
loose. Consequently, some look like normal pop rivets, with
the hole in the middle.
There are caps that can be placed over a normal pop rivet,
to give it the appearance of the solid type.
I've also used Phillips head sheet metal screws on a side panel
and found that once painted, they don't look too bad at all!
$444 for rivets sounds like a lot of bread.... That's at least
one trip around the block, for fuel..... |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 5:45 am: | |
" but from what I have read it seems that riviting with solid rivets is a skilled profession"
THIS "skilled profession" can easily be learned in about 20 min , if someone will show you how.
I don't have published data to back it up but feel a real solid rivet is stronger than a fancy pop rivet.
Yes, I know there are Cherry Rivets in many aircraft parts , but these "structural" reivets are really pricy .
Get a gun & learn those skills Rosey the Riveter learned.
Ony downside to REAL rivets is it takes an unskilled second person to buck from inside.
Any local chapter of the EAA will be happy to instruct you on the fine art.
FAST FRED |
Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 8:56 am: | |
Fred your showing your inexperience,the man with the bucking bar is the most important to any riveting operation.>>>Dan |
Rich International Bus & Parts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 10:57 am: | |
Rusty,
Standard pop rivets & umbrella caps are (9) cents each, (18)cents each for the pair. Look just like the buck rivet from the outside of the coach, just like Tim said. No special bucking tools to but, easy...........inexpensive.....We spent a lot of money developing it so you could get a great part. Sad to see everyone coming up with alternatives.
Rich
800-468-5287 |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 5:12 pm: | |
I used a lot of solid alum rivets on my old Brill; took some practice on some old material, but got it to work pretty good. How about epoxy the panel on and then epoxy solid rivet heads over the factory rivet holes? Be an interesting experiment. |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 5:16 pm: | |
Be a good demonstration project for BUSSIN 2006. |
Rusty Thompson (Rusty)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 8:56 pm: | |
Thanks for all the great ideas. I think I would like learn how to solid rivet... I found a place on the internet that says you sould use 3 pop rivets to replace on solid rivet, so if I can thats the way I'm going to go. If that doesn't work I'll order the rivets from IBP. By the way thanks to those IBP guys for developing a inexpensive blind rivet that looks like the solid rivet. So my new question is does anyone know of a place I could learn how to use solid rivets in Oregon. I live in Salem but I'm not afraid to drive to someones location to learn the trade.
Again, Thanks a lot for all the great imput:
Rusty |
John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 11:07 pm: | |
Rusty, goto eaa.org and peruse the site for info about an Experimental Aircraft Assn. chapter near you. Oregon is a hot bed of builders, so have no fear. Thsoe guys will have lots of good advice, and will probably even loan you tools to do it. The solid aircraft rivet is preferable for structural panels. For less stressed parts, the blind rivets that Rich at IBP sells do a splendid job. As Dan mentions, setting rivets well is a two person team effort, with close co-operation required to get a good "set" on the rivet. Probably the biggest hazard is your temper when the guns jumps sideways off the rivet head, and makes a "smiley" next to the rivet. How did GM and the other manufacturers get so many perfect rivets set? Huge hydraulic "C" presses! Set to "squeeze" the rivet only so many thousandths of an inch, to reach the perfect amount of compression. For best results you should buy "fresh" (new manufacture) rivets, (try Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co.) and keep them in a refrigerator until time for use. (Nope, I'm NOT kidding!) This stops the pre-hardening (ageing) of the aluminum due to heating/cooling cycles of normal storage.
Cheers...JJ |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 6:08 am: | |
the man with the bucking bar is the most important to any riveting operation.>>>
Didnt say he was unimportan , just EZ to train in a couple of min.
FAST FRED |
Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 8:29 am: | |
Hey Rich, Can your pop rivets be used for srtuctural? or are they reserved for non structural?
I looked at my bus & have found some of the solid rivet heads have popped off in random places. Do those need to be replaced?
Thanks,
kyle4501 |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 8:42 am: | |
Kyle,
There are several pull type rivets that are rated as structural, but I am not sure of the actual specifications of each style/type. Structural rated pull type rivets include Cherrybolt, Monobolt, Huck, and Shavehead. Like everything else, each has strong points and weak points. Some may be stronger in tensile strength while others may be stronger in shear. In each type there are diffent sizes with different strength ratings.
It would be a good thing to replace any damaged or missing rivets, as GM designed their buses to incorporate the skin as part of the structural component of the bus. Hope this helps, Jack |
Arthur J. Griffith
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:30 pm: | |
I am just this week finishing up the Mirror Finish siding on my Eagle 15. I used Sikaflex
on more than 80% and pinned it at the end of the seams an where needed with the Pop Rivets and
polished Umbrella caps. It is strong and Beautiful like my Wife.
The umbrella caps and pop rivets are a great
product combination. Avail. at IBP.
What a great Hobbie.
ARTHUR |
Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:43 pm: | |
Rusty - as John points out there are lots of folks working on planes around here. Vans aircraft (makers of the RV series of planes) are at Aurora airport just off of I-5 a few miles north of you.
Evergreen Aviation (owners of the Spruce Goose and many other cool planes) has let me into their restoration shop at the McMinville airport a couple of times. It is the southern most building on the airport straight across the road from the largest museum building. Last time I was by there couple of early jet fighters setting outside the south side of the building. I just wandered up and the gentlemen working there invited me in to scope out their work. I bet they would be glad to teach you.
You might also want to call R&M fiberglass in Turner. R&M Fiberglass is about 4-5 miles south of Salem's McNary field. Drop by or call and ask Karen for a pointer on where you could go.
Probably any truck repair or airport FBO with a mechanic could show you something too.
Good Luck!
Craig - MC7 Oregon |