| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: |
Well I'm finally to the kitchen. I've been working from the back of the bus toward the front and the bedroom and bathroom are pretty well done. So now I'm searching for recomendations of counter depth. The counters in my house are 24" deep. Should I use that depth? My sink will require a minimum of 21" and the stove even less. Since I'm dealing with the sloping walls of a GMC the depth will be about 1" greater on the floor. Since I'm building the cabinets I can choose any width. Is there any downside to making the counters 21 1/2" deep? Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Phillip Hendrix (Phil_hendrix)
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Hi Jerry, Since you are building the cabinets/countertops yourself I see no harm in making them less than the norm of 24". As long as your sink/stove/ref./micro/appliances will work in the space you choose. You might have a problem if you later choose to use a DW. The other issue that comes to mind might be the depth of the drawer guides you want to use, they come in 2" increments. I think the best drawer guide to use is Blum's Blumotion, you won't be disappointed. Just my 2 cents. Phil | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Huh? "- My sink will require a minimum of 21" - any downside to making the counters 21 1/2"" I think you're not going to be giving that sink much support across the front and across the rear, with only 1/4" of material supporting the longest sides of it. Have you considered placing the sink on the diagonal, in a corner or "L" section? That would allow for a narrower than usual counter and still have enough room for the sink. A trip to your local RV dealer can give you thousands of good ideas for your own layout! (bring a ruler) | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Try using a bar sink! They are smaller in size but deeper! For what little use, it seems that's all we will need and they have them in different shapes which makes them look more custom! Ace | ||
| bill chisholm (Billybandman)
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Jerry, If you remember my kitchen, I used 24" counters on both sides, sink on one side, stove on the other, and it doesn't seem too cramped at all. Even with my big butt it seems fine. I have about 40" in the aisle between the sink and stove. Just to try it take two 24" pieces of scrap lumber, prop em up where you want em and see if you like the room it leaves yu. | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
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I have been dealing with the same issues and here is my two cents. Sink - I got one for $140.00 on ebay rather than the $400.00 I found locally. Double stainless, one side larger than the other, drain holes in the rear of the bowls so I can still use a lot of the under sink space for drawers. Slides - Mepla-alift self closing sides, you close the drawer to the last 2" and the slide uses a little charged gas cylinder to slowly pull it closed form there. 2 advantages, my daughter can not slam the drawer irritating me or crushing her fingers, and the closure keeps them closed when moving as you have to pull the drawer 2" open before it slides freely. Counter depth - 24" is standard for a reason, standing at the counter 24" is as far as you can reach comfortably forward for the average person. Sinks, stoves, undercounter appliances are designed for slightly less than this depth, this allows some room behind for fittings and a drip edge where the counter overhangs the drawer fronts for wiping the counter off Counter hight - 34" to 36" is standard, I built mine at 34" with a 3/4" counter top on top. While I am more comfortable with a 37" counter (I am 6'4") I have become accustomed to using a 2" thick cutting board for food prep and my windows are exactly 36" from the floor, this will allow me a backsplash. Toe Kick - standard is 4" - 5" and at least 3" deep, this allows your toes a place to go so you can stand comfortably at the counter and work with your hands in an optimal position as not to be leaning forward and tiring your back. I chose 6" to allow air from the wall mounted radiators to flow freely and I suspended my cabinets from the walls and uprights so the cabinets seem to float above the floor giving an impression of space in a bus. Faucet - All the ones I liked were $500, again I found one on ebay for $80. As much as I hate to say it, most of these dimensions are what they are for a reason and this is why your home kitchen seems so much more comfortable than an RV or boat where consessions are made. I decided to build a comfortable kitchen as I like to cook and with a child much of the day revolves around meal time, she helps me cook and it is a time we enjoy together. Several Italian designers have innovative ideas where the counters are built an additional 4" out from the wall witha shelf behind, this is used for electrical outlets, cuttlery storage, drip trays, dispensers and plate racks, the main advantage here is that the cabinets can be lower to the counter (16"-18" standard) and still allow the counter to be used without ducking to peek under the cabinets, this also makes the kitchen appear larger. I decided to keep all my windows and installed two under counter refers, above the counter will be a stainless pull down dish rack above the sink so dishes can be washed and placed there and they will drain and dry into the sink below, the remainder of the cieling area will be for a spice rack, pot, pan & utensil hanging. The result has been a large kitchen which looks very open and is easy to use. You can see images of the progress at www.frybrid.com/bus.htm Put a lot of thought into it, you will be spending some quality time cooking and an easy kitchen is a pleasure to work in. Like the bedroom, make it comfortable and easy to move in. Just my opinion, heck I spent years cooking on the tailgate of a land rover with only a 2 burner stove and a bucket for a sink and at the time it worked well for me. Chris | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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John & Ace, Sorry I wasn't clear, I'm allowing for 1" of counter beyond the sink's rim both in front and behind. In other words the the sink itself is 19" deep & the cutout is 17". I plan on the counter extending over the cabinet 1" and the cabinets will be made of 3/4" stock. So I actually could use a 21" deep counter. Plenty of support from the cabinets. I've considered 'L's' and diagonals and looked at hundreds of RV's. To me the simple straight counter results in the least unusable, hence wasted, counter and floor space. Besides L's and diagonals tax my carpentry too much. BTW I've measured many stick and staple counters at 22" deep. I've also looked at dozens of sinks. The reason I've chosen this particular sink is because it's a little over 7" deep & I grew to hate the 4 1/2" deep sink that was in a stick and staple I used to have. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
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Nice site Chris,Monster Bus!!! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"Sink - I got one for $140.00 on ebay rather than the $400.00 I found locally." I don't mean to knock the ability to spend cash.... If you've got it, great! However..... Others of us (with fixed income and budgets) can get the same fixtures and cabinetry, but used and in great condition, by visiting a local builder's used / surplus shop. Our local renovator's surplus (used) store has deep sinks complete with "big name" faucets for $5 to $15. Counter tops (some corian) are usually around $5-$15 for the entire section. Cabinets are $5 each, complete (drawers with slides; doors with spring hinges). Paneled wood or glass doors are $5. They even carry the remains (returns) of builder's overstock. Brand name tile, wood or laminate, enough to do a small area, for .50 or less per square. Home Depot and Lowes also have a fair amount of returned goods for sale at a fraction of the selling price. And.... For what it's worth... A call to a few contractors in the area, that specialize in kitchens, etc, may provide you with the cabinets being taken out for replacement with new... usually free, or damned close to free. They'd rather have you help take them out and away, than pay for the disposal. I dream big too, but for me, being practical is a necessity. With a little ingenuity, anyone can have their dream without the nightmarish expense. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Jerry - Those dimensions make a world of difference! Ace's suggestion regarding a bar sink, is a good one! That's exactly the type I plan on. I hate those blasted 6-7" sinks. The "L" design can serve to define the kitchen area, and does not have to be massive. Even a shallow "L" that extends less than a foot beyond the main countertop, can allow a decent sized sink to fit, without being overbearing to the rest of the available space. I guess it all depends on the overall layout? We bought our Winnebago for it's straight countertop design, and we found it to work for us. Our Georgie-Boy had that "shallow L" design, with the sink on an angle (kitty-corner), and for that RV, it was better than a straight design. Whatever you do, I'm sure it'll look great! | ||
| Frank Allen (Frank66)
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I used 24 inch counter, the sink is a standard sixe double stainless house ytpe from home depot, wife insisted on a large sink to do dishes, works just fine for us, we did not want to try to save a couple inches here and have a little sink. Frank Allen 4106 | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Chris, Your's is a very different bus than my 35 foot GMC and very nice. My kitchen will be much closer to that pick up tailgate. Obviously your refrigerators aren't propane & with two of them you don't plan on being without power very long. I've also chosen a 'houshold' refrigerator but to allow some days without power I carefully shopped for the lowest energy use and ended up with a 4.6 cu ft of referigerator and 1.6 cu ft of freezer that uses, on average, 29 watts or about 32 watts from the battery. It however is 46 1/2" tall so it wouldn't go under a counter. But it does have the condensor on the back so I'll add 1 1/2" of foam on all the sides but the door. I'll measure it's power use after it's installed. I'm putting my microwave above the refrigerator and will have cabinets above the counters. The cabinets above the counters are pretty small due to the sloping walls and curved roof of the GMC. I've also eliminated the windows which are only 30" above the floor in my bus. I too found my sink on ebay and it also has the drains at the back. I wanted the drains at the back just to make the ordinary cupboard below it more useful. But My sink is white plastic and cost a bit under $40 delivered. I'm planning conventional toespaces of 5" h x 3" deep. Those drawer slides sound really great. Where did you get them? Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
I have found single sinks to be just fine IF given a drain board , to stack the freshly washed dishes. AS I couldnt find a "right" sized single , I simply chopped a used SS doubble sink in half. Good heavy construction and the right size too. I have mounted a garbage disposal in the sink drain , and it saves some trips to the Dumpster, getting rid of smelly stuff like shrimp pealings instantly. FAST FRED | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
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John, you could not be less well informed as to my situation. I moved back stateside 4 years ago with a backpack and a camera (Europe based wildlife photographer). We wanted a daughter and about a day later we were pregnant, since that time I have been the only one supporting a family of 3. My income is fixed every time I get any and my budget means that after everyone eats and all the bills are paid I can put a few dollars into the bus. I hate to buy anything twice, when I buy tools I call every contractor I know and ask which they prefer, I then call a tool repair place and ask which brands they repair the most, anything on the first list but not the second is what I buy. You are very lucky to live in an area with $5 sinks and $5 cabinets, that is not how it is in Seattle, the housing prices have quadropled in 10 years and the population doubled, every Microsoft mommy is trying to remodle or redecorate everything in sight, we have 3 builders salvage places here, two serve pastrys and espresso when you walk in and all 3 are far more expensive because they are "Vintage" or "Distressed" or "Period" appliaces. I looked everywhere for flooring, found an old high school gym which had beed demolished and could have gotten the floor at a good price (not as good as your .50 sq ft) but I can not justify raising the roof on my bus, so I had to find something less than 1" thick which I would only have to install once - the bamboo just made sense. I built every counter and cabinet in my bus, built my dining table, my bed (salvaged futon) and did my cieling with the lease expensive birch cabinet drawer bottom material I could find. My Jenn Air grille was from the local paper at $150 and my daughters bunk made from a salvaged window seat. Don't jump the gun here and assume that because I want a kitchen that works that I am burning money to warm my hands. Jerry - I found that i could increase the efficiency of the undercounter refers by 30 to 40% simply by circulating air around the sides, if you look at the image of my counter the uprights on either side of the refers (made from 2x4s and faced with scrap aluminum from my shop) form boxes on either side of each refer, in the botton, on the bus floor are holes which go into the bays, here they connect to plastic pipe which runs to the bay floor and open under the bus. the back wall of the boxes is the outer wall of the bus and there are holes there as well each fitted with a whisper quiet computer fan (These can easily be salvaged at any Goodwill for less than $1), the fans are powered by a solar panel on the roof. When the sun is out and the air is hot, the fans run and circulate air past the sides of the refers. I designed the bus system to run for 4 days without any power, at that point it has a 6.5kw genset, a 270 amp alternator and is wired for 30 or 50 amp shore power all controlled and distributed by a sw4024 inverter/charger. The Genset is a Honda construction site gas genset modified to burn propane which I found at a police auction for $200 with no fuel tank and less than 5 hours on the clock. There have been some really cool kitchen designs done for minimum spaces, I found one unit only 4' wide and floor to floor to cieling contained the sink, stove, refer and storage. Look at some of the aircraft kitchens of the 1950's or sailboat kitchens for ideas. I have seen some really nice designs in airstreams as well, look at http://www.wakefieldfarms.com/airstream.htm and http://airstream.sicore.org/Airstream%20CCD%202003-Pages/Image17.html Chris | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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Thanks Chris, Nice to know that you can get crisp, clean look with out looking cheap or spending loads of $$$. From my experience, it is cheaper to buy it once, If you get quality to start with. John, I have yet to find the deals you refer to, around here, the cheap stuff isn't worth a trip to the landfill. The useable stuff is snatched up for cheap rental houses. But maybe I don't spend enough time trolling the salvage stores.... FWIW kyle4501 | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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Chris, I've always appreciated your posts. Above, you said, "Several Italian designers have innovative ideas where the counters are built an additional 4" out from the wall witha shelf behind, this is used for electrical outlets, cuttlery storage, drip trays, dispensers and plate racks, the main advantage here is that the cabinets can be lower to the counter (16"-18" standard) and still allow the counter to be used without ducking to peek under the cabinets, this also makes the kitchen appear larger. " Is the 'shelf' above, at the same level, or below counter-'grade'? Any sites with examples? | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Chris, Neat stuff, thanks. I'd like your opinion as to which of two 'floor plans' of my kitchen counter would be more 'user friendly'. My counter is 84" long, the sink is 25" wide and the range top is 20" wide. This leaves me 39" of 'pure' counter. The alternatives are: 1. put the sink 3" from one end and the range 3" from the other leaving a single 33" counter between or 2. put the range 3" for one end and center the sink in the remaining counter giving two 18" counter spaces seperated by the sink. I'm leaning toward option 2 because it better allows sharing kitchen tasks with my wife even though the counters will be on the small side. 4 days on battery is impressive,what do you have for house batterys? I have 4 L16 house batterys and to get to 4 days I have to average 48 watts. I just bought a meter to measure kwh and I'm going to measure my refrigerator's power use before and after adding insulation. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
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you can get stainless sinks for under 40 bucks at lowes. (i'm in olympia by the way) and were you aware of the rv recycler in rochester? -dd | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
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Jerry - Hate to hijack the thread. I would go for option 1 since I think 2 18" spaces would be cramped, block your kitchen counter at home allowing only 18" of space and make a dinner or two, I think you will find it daunting but again it depends of your cooking style. I cut my teeth in restauraunt kitchens and like a good prep area, especially when you want to get everything preped then just cook and serve. I have an impressive collection of small stainless bowls and do all my chopping and prep at once, then fire the stove and start dumping bowls into pans and skillets and serve everything right off the stove. As a result I need prep space. It takes little space to pull a lasagna from the box and plop it in the microwave. I chose to have two 35" counter spaces, one will likely have a coffee maker, toaster, etc on at least half of it and the other will have a cutting board on it and a knife rack above it. I have a bank of 12 8D batteries. Many of the lights are LED and with a 2.5 year old our nights are pretty early, On my bus every other window opens out and in our last motorhome we never once used the AC but elected to open windows and live mostly outside in the nice weather so our only power draw is some lighting (we went through boxes of candles), the water pump, the refers and stereo. I am shopping for a low draw LCD computer monitor to use as a TV for the mandatory Sesame Street, etc. likely connected to a laptop. The Xantrex SW4024 will auto start the genset if the battery bank drops below 50% and can be set not to do so during sleeping hours. Since most of our trips are weekends or distance drives of several days with camping between or shore power at the grandparents I thought that 4 days would be more than sufficient. In addition I have two 30amp solar panels left over from an old project which are going on the roof. Until I have some real boondocking time logged I am just speculating as to real consumption. Kevin - I looked at Lowes (Less Of What Eagle Sold) as well as Home Despot but could not find anything I liked, I wanted drains at the back and a full size sink made of at lease 16g stainless, they simply did not have it, I tried salvage and even called 4 of my friends who are all remodel contractors, after 3 months $140 seemed like a deal. Chris | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
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Chuck - It is level with the top of the backsplash, so about 5" - 6" above counter level. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Chris - Just to set the record straight... I -did not- intend my comments to be taken as any insult, nor should they be taken as such. How each of us spends our hard-earned cash, is our's alone to decide. So no, I did not intend my comments to insult you, or anyone else. It sounds like you're doing a first-rate job, and doing it "your way". Why would I or anyone else have a problem with that? (I don't) When I first came to BN (way back when)(harps please), I found one after another post describing the costs of the components used for the "conversion". The prices I saw were staggering; some were higher than marine quality. If I didn't know better, I'd have quit thinking about converting a bus I have some experience with remodeling homes, and the price to do a quality job does not have to be high, nor does a high price indicate quality. The average newbie can feel awfully intimidated after reading posts in forum after forum, of all the high dollar conversions. Embarrassed to ask if it can be done for a fraction of the price? Sure! Who wants to feel inferior. I'm a cheap *^%#&#. But I know I can buy a premium quality fixture, "used" instead of new, and if I don't tell anyone it's "used", they'll never know. Instead of 400 or 140, it may be $10. Yeah, that dramatic. Corian tops are nice, but a guy can tile over a plywood countertop for under $30 total, and have it looking like one in a million dollar RV. It's always been my opinion, that a reader should be made aware of all the options available to accomplish a decent job. No harm intended. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"It's always been my opinion, that a reader should be made aware of all the options available to accomplish a decent job." Anyone can Visa an $800 Swiss Franke sink, getting the same effect for $10.is MY WAY! of conversion. Remember 75% of the trolls are wannabees , so ALL concepts and OPINIONS should always be welcome. FAST FRED | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
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Another thread begins to unravel... John - What in the world are you on about? I never said you had a problem, I just pointed out that I was not tossing cash around like a flower girl at a wedding and that the deals you spoke of are simply not available in the geographic, socio-economic area in which I live. As for a reader being made aware of all options, I agree, it is our solom duty to be sure that all possible options be posted to any question asked.... I was simply offering what I chose to do and why as an example, take it or leave it, I posted for edification, not disection. "I don't mean to knock the ability to spend cash.... If you've got it, great! However..... Others of us (with fixed income and budgets) can get the same fixtures and cabinetry, but used and in great condition, by visiting a local builder's used / surplus shop." First sentance inplies that you think me to be made of cash and spending it foolishly as the same fixtures, etc. can be had for for less. Then you seperate me from yourself and others by implying that I am not on a fixed income nor do I have a budget. Wrong on both accounts, I am not made of cash, do have a budget and you can not get the cabinets I have used, I made them. Somehow I have clearly offended your sense of frugality, and you feel the need to state that the reader should be made aware of all options, while standing on my neck. I was simply pointing out how and why I have done my kitchen, which after all was the question. Was it not? How about offer some advice without trying to tear mine apart? As for anyone being able to Visa an $800 Swiss Franke sink, I surely can not and if I could, would not. "I dream big too, but for me, being practical is a necessity. With a little ingenuity, anyone can have their dream without the nightmarish expense." I am not dreaming, I am building and doing so in a practical way. I am not incuring "nightmarish expense" My kitchen has so far cost me $90 in stainless, $140 sink, $40 plywood, $30 laminate, $80 faucet, $120 Grill, 2x $100 refers.... So about $700 plus the materials I had laying around. Other than that I probably have another $1000 into the floor and $400 into the rest of the bus including walls, doors, beds, etc. So I am into my bus a total of $2100 rounded to $2600 for the entire interior to date. I have a kitchen with appiances, two bedrooms, doors, floors, beds... All I need now is a couch, some chairs and all the detail work. With all due respect, can we not stay on the topic at hand rather than attacking one another. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Scroll up, Chris; I think you missed a post. | ||
| mikeEMC
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Chris good for you to be frugel , i bought this bus for 500 and it ran , drove it 70 miles home with no dash insterments lol it was totoaly burned out. the guy i got it from started gutting it so i didn't have the whole mess to clean out. i had to completly reweld and replace both sides. it's titled as a bus and was built by ElDardo motorcoach 350M ( the only other one i've seen is in Seattle area) and it now doesen't look like the factory model. buy the way i have a jenair too that i haven't installed yet , was thinking on converting 2 burners to gas and leave 2 as electric , would like some input on this idea | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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Be sure you can use the electric on 110 volt. | ||
| mikeEMC Rating: N/A |
Chris I was interested in the flooring sence i was putting wood floor in mine... bamboo ? interesting |
