| Author | Message | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Rating: |
I'm looking at the blowers that are in my mci9 that are mounted above the engine and thinking that they could be up graded to electric fans or dual electric motor blowers for a small horse power gain and get rid or the old belt drive system. Has any mci owners thought about this. Can I get some advice from the experts out there? What do you think? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Two Dawgs? You out there, son? It would seem to me, that the enormous alternator that's in an MCI, was there to run the enormous air conditioner fans. You're going to need fans at least as large as those, to cool the radiators. MCI designed, engineered and produced the bus using belt driven fans for the cooling system. I -personally- wouldn't use my precious time trying to improve what's worked perfectly well for so many millions of miles, for so many thousands of buses. | ||
| Two Dogs
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, it will work fine. After all, fans are fans, don't be so fussy. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
IIRC, doesn't it take about 30 HP to cool a 2 stroke? This means 30 HP worth of electric motors driving the fans to do the trick. The fan system delivers air in rough proportion to the engine's needs (RPM related) Controlling high amperage motors won't be simple, cheap or maintenance free. Running off a suitably (increased) sized alternator, (How much $$??) you'll have approx 10% energy efficiency converting from diesel (chemical energy) to electric energy and another huge loss in efficiency converting from electrical energy to drive the necessary airflow. The extra fuel wasted will more than eat up any "paper" gains in hill climbing performance, forget about a mpg increase. The fans will take some huge conductors, etc. You'll be able to buy lots of fan belts just for the price of the motors. Whole idea busts the KISS principle. But this is a "do it your way" hobby, if not avocation. Whatever floats your boat! | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
If your Radiator Blower system is intact then when the thermostatically controlled trap doors are shut you are not using any HP at all......a squrrel cage fan that is not moving air does not draw HP | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Steve. To put this in perspective.... With the shutters and damper doors open, have an assistant run the engine up to the governor. You check out the hurricane blowing down from the fans, and the suction you can feel being pulled through the screens over the rads. Then wonder where you will find electric fans that will suck like that through the radiators. There are lots of places to apply some re-engineering in your coach. Perhaps best to leave this area alone? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
Why do you want to change it? Changing mechanical energy to electric & then back to mechanical is not very efficient when compared to the system in question. Moving air thru a pressure differential is what requires HP. The max cooling is needed when the engine is making max power. It would be nice to violate the laws of physics & reverse this. If you are trying to improve the cooling capacity of the system, you first need to understand why MCI built so many coaches this way. If there was a cheaper system that was as reliable, they would have used it. But if you must change your system, I would suggest that you get the fan curves, even if you have to generate them yourself (they relate air volume at various pressures to HP required) for the fans in the bus. Then you will know what size electric motor to put in. You may find that the HP required surprises you, especially when you see the size motor required to get that HP on 24V. However, if you believe the statement "fans are fans", then why not use a 12V dash fan from almost any truck stop? Then you could sell the package to MCI. After all it would cost less than $50 and save MCI THOUSANDS of $$$ on EVERY bus they make! Just some food for thought, Kyle4501 | ||
| Ray Jensen
Rating: N/A |
So, we are back to the electric fans again. If the question is will it work, the answer is an an absolute, no doubt, complete, YES. Now I had the privilege to eat dinner with Marc Bourget and other equally taken bus nuts at "BUS'N USA". At that rally they had a coach in progress constructed by "Infinity Coach"..., it was modified with a nicely installed series 60 annnnd ELECTRIC coooling fans. Now, the fabled gigantic alternator didn't exist, in fact it was smaller than the one on my MCI and was belt driven off the front of the engine. Infinity drove it there and back, so it must have worked. Now I can't be the only who saw this..., So, all those who watched Two Dogs get slandered on this topic, stand up and welcome him back, It's bad enough to be a bus nut in a world full of infidels then to kill one of our own R Jensen MCI 102c3 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I can swear I read someplace, that there's a slight teeenie-tiny, miniscule, wisp of a pittance of a difference, between the "V" 2 stroke series and that series 60........ | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Ray, I didn't survey the alternator(s)on the Infinity-Eagle IIRC there were 6 motors (don't know HP) but it wouldn't surprise me if they were 5 HP each, all totaled that equals the 30 HP I was mentioning above. I have a alternator off a Military vehicle that is smaller than the DN50 and puts out 200A 100% duty cycle. The S-60 has a significantly lower heat rejection total than the 8V92. Nobody ever said Two Dogs was wrong just because he selected electric fans. My position is he can't do it with the fans he "selected". I also repeated that it isn't efficient but it is different. It bears repeating that a properly maintained engine and cooling system in a properly driven coach won't overheat. But responsible realism isn't the longsuit of dreamers like us that take on such gigantic projects such as converting a bus. Seems like we get so involved in the project most of us don't know when to quit, IYKWIM. The choice of electric vs. mechanical is logic'd above. I quietly submit that the current stuff works and we've better things to waste our time and energy on. If its properly maintained and driven it ain't broke so don't fix it! Spend the $$ practically and on something that will convey a benefit besides reinventing the proverbial "wheel" Onward and Upward | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Forgot to mention that, after collaborating with Bob Sheaves,I plan (subject to later confirmation) to give a "coach side chat" at Busn'USA, Rickreal, OR., this summer. The topic will be "All you never wanted to know about bus cooling systems and More!" This will present a definitive review of the type of info contained in GM's MVO division's colling system engineering design standards manual. Dave Gregory has insisted that in order to draw a crowd of more than 2 cooling system geeks, I have to buy the first keg. The presentation will therefore be intelligent and intelligible for about 10 minutes or so !!!! Bring your own Beer Stein. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Or a straw? | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Touche, Mark - seems like some topics never die - but I'm still here waiting for that SUCCESSFUL verified experiment showing the bus engineers WRONG in their design of our cooling systems - Stan tried to fund the only test I know of - the results of which can only forever be SPECULATED on - and of course you are correct on the 4 stroke vs. the 2 stroke - It would be nice if Infinity would establish the parameters of their design and the results of their LONG TERM application of their design - Its hard to slander the non-existent - but it can forever be SPECULATED on - FWIW - Niles | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Niles, and others, 'struth said, there are no WRONG designs, only more or less "practical" designs. Fact is, energy costs money and complexity costs labor effort and (usually) more money and labor "down the road". College physics and Chem professors (IIRC) used to roughly estimate, in a practical sense, (and avoiding but not ignoring, for the sake of this statement, the Laws of Thermodymanics) that each step in the energy "chain" exposed the user to a 90% conversion loss or "expense" in energy. For example, solar energy to tree "lost" 90% of the photon energy, tree burnt to form steam lost 90% of the bio energy, steam convertesd to electricity lost 90%, electricity to motion 90%, etc., etc. In an absolute respect, a cooling system design is WRONG only if it doesn't have the heat rejection capacity to handle what the engine/tranny and accessories throw at it in a WORST case scenario. The USER defines their own "worst case scenario" With one converter with a bus this might be the Cajon pass, 105 deg day, 48,000#, driver lugging the engine, system poorly maintained and constructed. With a military vehicles, (Israel has the toughest standards) it's much worse, including the ability to handle a certain volume of gas separation introduced from a leaking head gasket. That being said, it's patently obvious from some threads that it's EASY for the ignorant (not stupid, rather the unknowing) to slander both the existant and the non-existant. Especially when the "goals" of the design aren't fully expressed. It's an apples vs oranges thing - UNLESS THE DESIGN PARAMETERS ARE SET DOWN FIRST. Two Dogs design is energy and cost efficient - as long as the engine isn't asked to produce more heat than the fans can take out of the cooling system. Trouble is, simple, unassailable physics tells you 2D's approach won't handle the Cajon pass under the above conditions. Who's right? Every(any)body whose design meets the criteria THEY have established. If your major definite purpose in life is a bus with the ability to "do" the Cajon Pass (see above) at 70 MPH, then build a 1000 HP "hand grenade" with a cooling system the length of the bays on one side. But be willing to absorb the cost of that BIG engine loafing along the rest of the time and poor utiltiy of the bus in an overall sense. IMHO, the flame wars start when two individuals begin to argue preferences when their (unspoken or ill defined) respective criteria are so different as to be incompatible in a practical sense. That's just childish if you think about it. Taking all of the posts to this thread in perspective, that's why the topic "All you never wanted to know about cooling systems and MORE" appeals to me. It will give a panoramic view of cooling system design criteria and enable those exposed to appreciate the attributes and weaknesses of these different approaches. For the rest, they're condemned to a life of bickering! (LOL!) Onward and Upward | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
i'm converting my scenicruiser to a 14L series 60. the plan is to use a pair of big squirrel cages similar to the mci design, and build a custom shroud for it (i have access to a tig) i have a stretched, triple axle dodge van. i tow a very heavy trailer with it, the engine is a 360 with a 727 tourqeflight behind it. (thinkin' it's time for a diesel or a 440  ) i had heat problems climbing passes with it. then the radiator broke into the tranny cooler (man what a mess) so i put in a new radiator, and went with the triple core while i was at it, and picked up a remote tranny cooler so that if it happened again i wouldn't have to go through the hassle of getting the water out of the atf / transmission. still had the heating problem. suspected it was because i was climbing slow, and not moving enough air. so i bought a big rapidcool electric fan, and pulled out the stock mechanical fan and shroud, and away i went. took about 10 miles of 2% upgrade to realize that the fan on all the time wasn't cutting it, and that i needed to tie it into the big second alternator and the house batteries instead. i called my parts guy, he told me the shucks in issaquah had another fan like the one i had. as i was headded past there, i spent 10 minutes in the parking lot putting in the second fan. better, but not good enough. pulled the non functional ac condensor out, propped the hood up so it was level (think giant hood scoop) and away i went. (with a van you need to evac as much air out of the engine compartment as you can) did okay, but about what i had before, and nothing like i had expected. so when i got home i built a sweet custom made slightly offset stainless steel fan shroud, on the assumption that the airflow wasn't going through the whole raidiator. this worked pretty well, but the current draw is pretty high, and it's not really any better than what i had, and i had to stop twice and cool down coming over bluett pass. the next step? took that radiator, fans, and shroud, and shoved them under the back of the van, fans on the topside, radiator on the bottom side, aft of the fuel tank. (keep in mind this rig is a stretched triple axle) and put a heavy mesh rock protector over it, put a new triple core in the front, put the mechanical shroud and fan back in, and plumbed the system in series, front rad first, and put a toggle switch on the relays for the rear radiator and fans. yeah, it works very very well now. what i *should* have done was to check the mechanical fan clutch before i did anything. that extra bit of horsepower isn't worth the fuss. good luck with it -dd | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Nice writin', Kev! | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
thanks john been thinking about this whole process a lot lately, and it seems to me that no matter how it's done, a belt driven mechanical solution is best. electrical cooling fans have their place.. like some temporary assistance to the mechanical system in the case of extreme duty... someone has an aftermarket carbon fiber fan on their scenicruiser, and i seem to remember the claim "50 hp" associated with it. that seems way high, but i can see how a modern fan may take less power to drive... i know that on my cruiser, stock i have 2 really heavy duty arms bolted to the sides of the block. both hold v-drives. one is for the cooling fan (left side) and the other is for the 7.5 ton ac unit (right side). as i'm dumping the 8v71 (i really want a ten speed eaton autoshift / series 60 (14L) combo) i have to reingineer most of the engine compartment. the 60 has more grunt. the 60 generates more heat. there's a million ways to do this, but i am, in essence, taking a shotgun approach, combined with a bit of solid engineering, to make this work. facts: the stock ac is going away. (leaving lots of room and open right side) the stock engine is going away. (leaving more room, new one is not as wide) the new engine is turbo'ed, so more heat is likely. the current exhaust system is probably going away as well. (i suspect the mufflers aren't going to work with the 60 very well) there are no provisions on the new engine to mount the oringinal fan drives. i have no idea if leaving the right side open is a good thing or a bad thing, but it seems to me that the airflow at the back of the bus will whack out a lot due to this, and that this may not be a good thing (tm) i *do* know that it's a bad place to put anything that doesn't like heat, so that is not a terribly good place for batteries. (although i can make it okay with some work, it would be better to keep them in front of the rear axles, as too much weight in the tail makes a cruiser handle very very poorly) so i have little use for that space. (put a generator there maybe?) so, if i leave the stock cruiser radiator where it is, (or the one out of the frieghtliner donor truck) and put a match to it in on the other side, it should solve the "airflow balance" problem (which may be imagined, but it's still sound engineering) a couple big scoops, and when she's empty, 55 mph would be fine. but then, scoops would be hard to do and keep those sexy lines, and would do zip when i wasn't moving. so, i need fans. i *have* a pair of absolutely huge ac blower fans that would do the trick. surprise surprise, they're centrifugal fans (squirrel cages). hmmm. the big burly fan in my furnace is a squirrel cage too. the assumption can be made that these are better for my purpose than propeller fans... hmmm. mci's use 'em too. done deal. so how do i mount / drive them? given fairly decent tig skills, i should have no problems at all building a pair of radiator shrouds to neck down the radiators to the fan intakes. (the rumor has it that mci's have overheating problems, i suspect that part of this is because of leaky seals in the fan compartments, loose belts, etc.) i can either put the whole fan in the shroud, drilling a hole for the fan drive shaft, or i can neck it down and line it up. the difference, ultimately boils down to how much air i want to pull out of the engine compartment. (i suspect i'll put the whole thing in a box, put in a pair of adjustable vents to pull engine compartment air into the shrouds. (if i want to cool the engine compartment more, and therefore less air through the rads) make them blow straight back to increase my gas mileage i'll probably drive the fans with either a single or double belt system. the one installation i saw up close had a spring loaded idler wheel to keep the belt tight, and a great big belt. i figure as the series 60 is a different engine, i'll have to figure something out, but it will either be two belts drive both fans, or one belt drives each, and put a limit switch under the spring loaded idler, to notify me (big red light?) if i throw a cooling belt. the series 60 doesn't have separate cooling banks like the 8v71, so i'll probably run the rads in series, although the plumbing will be a bit long. radiators function better the longer the water can stay in them, so it may be a better idea to do it in paralell, but i will need to figure out how to keep the water flow even between the two, or close to it.. (divided plenum maybe?) lots of factors involved. -dd | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
Ray, You mention that the infinity coach had a S60 and electric fans and worked.... That is all well & good, but you have left out too many details. And here the details matter. These coaches are expensive enough with out people chasing bigger holes to throw $$$ at.You can bet that Infinity coach had reasons for what they did. Too bad no one got the details. It would have been nice. How does it do on hard pulls? Is the radiator stock? Where was it located? How much air flows thru it while running down the road with out the fan? What fan was used? How was it powered? What was the amp draw? What shrouding was used around the radiator? For those that still don't get it, The cooling system is just that, a system. If you change one part with disregard to the rest, you are looking for trouble. To freely advocate reckless experiments is not helping any bus-nut to improve. Kevin was kind enough to tell us how his experiment turned out. It sounded like one of the things he learned was to throughly check the stock system first. That is the best advice. Sorry for the rant, but I feel better now. Kyle4501 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Wouldn't radiators in the bay cause the bus interior to get gawd awfully warm? Yeah, the heat is intended to go out, but as soon as you shut down, all that heat's going to rise; rise up through the floor.. Gonna' make you sweat; maybe even smell. Oh, I suppose you could insulate the living hell out of it.. It'd be a shame to lose all the room, tho. It was my understanding, that the 60 series runs cooler than a 2 stroke, and needs less cooling system capacity. Did I miss something? Maybe I misunderstood? An RV maker using the 4 strokes is also using electric fans.... (don't tell 2-dawg. He'll try to use mechanicals) I wish you luck with the project. You've got more guts than I, and more sprit into the whole thing. Cheers! | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
"Wouldn't radiators in the bay cause the bus interior to get gawd awfully warm?" umm. not sure if you were talking to me? i'm putting mine in the stock locations for the original radiator and ac condensor respectively. they're on the sides of the engine compartment on the cruiser. good to know it needs less cooling, that means i can run it harder with the system i have going in -dd | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Yup, Kev. And check the specs for the 60. I may have it wrong. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Rating: N/A |
Well I owned Big Trucks with the DD series60 12.7 hopped up to 500 hp at 1850 ft lbs. with 13 speed trans. Grossed out at 80000 lbs in the flat lands the fan very seldom kicked on when I started up a grade about 2-4" incline the fan would kick on and off to keep the 12.7 L engine cool.(And on down grades I would switch on the fan to help slow the truck down.) Also there is a fan switch so when your idling in the truck stop depending on outside temp. I would switch on the fan on and high idle for air condition. With the switch off on high idle with air on the fan would auto start and stop automatic. Also the large Garrett intake air intercooler helped alot by keeping intake air cool and condensed before the turbo compressed it to 46lbs boost at 1600 rpm. So 70% of the time the fan was just idle at 60 mph to 95 mph. Past 95 mph to 120 mph the fan ran without cycle.On down grades switching on the fan I could feel the truck rock from side to side and it helped slow the truck down along with the jakes. So the auto cluch fan worked great for 500,000 miles. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Kevin: Since this thread has morphed from electric fans to repowering with a S60 I offer a word of caution. The 4501 bus was well known for structural cracking above the drive axle. The S60 will add a lot of weight behind the axle. | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
steve: i suspect that my situation is worse, as the radiator isn't out front like it is in a truck, and i'm after the 14L ... but it's good to get an idea of how much grunt she's got, thanks (i love input ) stan: i know that there was some reinforcing done on a bunch of the last-in-service ones, but i have no other information on it. (i.e. what was done, how it was done, etc) if anyone has any pictures or technical documents on this i'd love to see them. i'm going to need a tow hitch, i have a 35 ft custom built pop top gypsy wagon i pull with my van i need to tow with the bus. a tufftow or similar is not out of the question, but i'd like to solve the problem, not the symptom. as the cruiser engine technically hangs off the roof, i need to do a lot of work in the tail. i know someone on this board hasn't had any trouble with a 35 foot lexmark trailer with 2 race cars and tools and such in it, so i don't think the goal is unobtainable, it's just going to take some heavy thinking... i'm not one to "build it for 8,122 lbs" or whatever. i'm much more likely to build it for the heaviest i can actually tow with a ball hitch. (safer that way) i haven't dug into it yet, but it looks to me like i can take the bottom hitch rails and run them all the way to the rear baggage bays, and triangulate off the drive and tag axle mounts, and pull another diagonal from where the back bulkhead and the floor come together. (don't quote me on this, i need to look at it with the engine out of it before i really get too far into this) in essence, i need to continue the monocoque construction all the way to the tail. someone stretched one to 45.6 ft. i'd love to pick their brain on this. the guy who designed the cruiser has passed on, so i can't ask him :/ how much more does the series 60 weigh than the 8v71? (i can't seem to find real numbers :/ ) i know my bus has an airbag mount that looks like the metal piece it's welded to is pushed up... (someone got it off the ground and landed on the drive axle right wheel first? i dunno) while we're at it, is this aluminum over steel frame construction, or is she all aluminum monocoque? (i'd go look but the bus isn't here) thanks -dd | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
My knowledge of the 4501 is limited but I converted a MC7-Combo. It utilized the lower rear third of the 4501 married to the 2/3 MC7. I am assuming it was when Greyhound had the conversion done that a 10 ga. steel shear plate was welded to the structural steel and then covered with an aluminum panel. This shear plate covered the area from the floor to the window line and from the rear of the bus to about three feet in front of the drive axle. This was done because of the cracking problem. You are correct about the entire rear of the 4501 hangs of the roof. If yoou want to pull a heavy trailer the caster wheel sold for supporting the tongue weight might be the best solution. If you check the archives on this board you should find quite a bit of information on this method. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin, You should be able to get the specs from DD concerning the weight of the engine. You also need to get the heat rejection rate for the engine you are putting in. Then you can size the radiator properly. With the new efficient design core, you may only need 1 radiator & that would greatly simplify your project. Keep us posted, Kyle4501 | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
stan: i think i got it. pull the interior, cut and fit a 10 ga stainless panel from roughly the back of the rear baggage bay all the way to the back of the bus, welding it to anything steel i can, as i go, in essence turning the upper walls into a torsion box... roughly where the white panels are in this pic: http://www.scenicruiser.com/images/newdog/09050018.JPG but not above window level and not so far t'ward the camera... (no this isn't my bus) heard a rumor about someone doing stainless for the bottom third on their cruiser... welded, no rivets... that on the inside and outside would solve the problem, but i think we'd be adding a whole lot of weight really fast. i was going to sprayfoam insulate the bus, so i have to rethink the back, since i won't want to weld to anything that's got sprayfoam near it... suggestions? (i'm assuming it'll be an enclosed box once the panel is in place, and if not, i should add steel to make it so, as that will be stronger. .. i mean, i could fill it full of fiberglass after the fact, but ugh... 10 ga is a pretty serious reinforcement. are we sure this was to reinforce it, and not just protect the outer skin from cargo being thrown against the walls? as a visual aid: http://www.scenicruiser.com/images/newdog/09050008.JPG (again, not my bus) from roughly the top of the red stripe up is structural, the bottom all just hangs there. (there is a second floor in just below the paint line as well, there's air tanks and so on under those side panels) makes me wonder about the fasibility of triangulating this whole area (from in front of the drive axle all the way to the back bumper) the biggest problem i see is that with the tires and so on, it would be pretty far inboard... it would work for the hitch though. start the hitch rails 3 ft into the baggage bays, and run them all the way back. they would have to bolt in so you could remove axles and such i think, but you could use 2" square box tubing and backing plates and weld in all but the two bottom rails. basically triangulating the whole thing, like a bridge truss. the last pair of diagnals that go down would have to clear the engine on either side, but it should be doable. man i wish i has a structural drawing of this thing -dd | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin - http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Public/specs/3sa353.pdf Gives you the specs for both the 12 & 14 L S-60s, including weight. According to an older DDA spec sheet I have, the 8v71 weighs 2345 lbs., you do the math. . . By using a Tuff-Tow, you may be worrying too much! HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
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Kevin..your towing a 35 ft trailer with a 40 ft coach?... That's 75 ft long, and if that doesn't include the trailer tongue you'll be bumping up against 80 ft. Just about all states and provinces have a 65 ft Max combined towing lenght. You might get away with 5ft over the 65 ft...but 75 to 80.. it'll be to hard for the cops to miss or resist giving you a ticket. Just food for thought Ron | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
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yikes. hrm. not sure how i'm going to shorten that trailer maybe i should measure it again -dd | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Register it in a state with an 80' limit. <a href="http://www.wecamp2.com/size.html" target="_blank">State RV and Motorhome Size Limits</a> If you're "full-timing", you can claim any state as your "home state". | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
well, i'm in washington, and ours is 75... -dd | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Case closed, Kev. | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
oh, is it only the "state it's registered in" that matters? (seems odd to me?) ... by the way, called detroit diesel today and talked to a tech. told him what i was up to, and he said "don't" and told me the issues were heat rejection and it was going to cost a *lot* of money, and suggested i shop around for a later model 8v* i told him i had a tig, a mig, and a plasma cutter, and my first car was a 74 mustang 2 with a supercharged 351 cleveland in it, and was he sure it was *that* hard? silence for about 5 seconds, and then he said: "scratch everything i told you, you need to talk to bart hansen, i'm leaving him a message to call you..." "i can't give you heat rejection numbers without the block serial numbers of both engines, because there are so many differences. for the series 60, they can be up to 500 hp, and that's at least 3 times the heat rejection of the low horsepower 14L..." "i can't just give you a worst case, because i don't know any of those serials off the top of my head, but he does..." "the wiring is a snap, it's basically just a positive and a negative if you have all the guts out of a donor truck..." and proceeded to explain to me that in essence, i can't overcool it, and that the only issue will be cooling, but it'll be a big one. he also suggested a really big set of ram air cooling scoops, but only if i can make 'em sexy.. he was very knowledgeable, and i asked him why the "it won't work" in the beginning... and he basically told me that they get, minimally, a call every other day about someone that blew up their 8v71 and wanted to bolt in a series 60, and it's a lot of custom fabrication and time. as soon as he realized i was serious about it, and knew that it was a major transplant, he did the best he could for me. so for now i'm going to run with "5 times the heat rejection of an 8v71" and start crunching the numbers. so... need to find me a class 8 500 hp 14L frieghtliner with under 250k miles on it... -dd | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Kevin: Unlike the DD tech I will not tell you not to do it. With enough dollars anything can be done, but you have a tremendous learning curve before you start. For example; you immediately decide to put on a stainless steel shear plate instead of mild steel. The shear plate has to be plug welded to the mild steel frame and welding stainless requires more knowledge and experience than welding mild steel. If you have that knowledge then you know which SS alloy is suitable for that use and is not subject to cracking at the welds. What I am trying to tell you is look at everything you want to do and research it thoroughly before you start cutting and welding. The rear sub frame is designed to support an 8V71 with a manual transmission. Changing the weight, length, balance point and position of the motor mounts warrants serious consideration. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
For your drivers license, it is 'home stete rule'. For rig length, weight, width, etc. It is the where you are that rules. Interstates usually have a max width of 102", secondary roads are 96" unless you are with in ~2 miles of the interstate. It seems this law is seldom enforced, but I'm not interested in explaining why I'm too wide to Barney Fife if stopped. One of the north east states has a 96" width limit period. You can bet Barney will be interested in talking to you if you exceed the local length restriction. Some of the laws are based on the road's ability to accomodate long rigs. Some are based on stupidity. Great info to have from DD concerning the S60. Just a thought, but with the increased torque you are gonna be putting to the road, you might consider the consequences of that on the rear axle in your cruiser. With the total weight you're moving, that could be a real big issue. A standard class 8 truck axle would need different profile gears since it turns backwards in a bus. Ain't hot rodding a bus fun! The guy I got my bus from replaced it with a Freightliner 10 wheeler sleeper cab with a HUGE box body. Part of the box is RV living & the rest is storage. He can also pull a large trailer. It is private/ not for hire, so he does not have to stop at weigh stations (he keeps his weight in line & usually does stop & they just wave him thru). Since it is a truck, getting service on the road has been easier. For what it's worth, Kyle4501 | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Have you never seen the signs at the inspection stations 'ALL TOWED VEHICLES MUST STOP'? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Kevin - "oh, is it only the "state it's registered in" that matters?" For the vehicle(s), yeah. But road usage laws are a different matter. If a state clearly prohibits vehicles or vehicle combinations over a certain footage (65' fir instance), then you may run into some headaches driving that 80' mass of weight on their roadways. Special permits may or may not be needed. Generally, recreational vehicles are exempt from laws that govern commercial vehicles, but 80', is 80'. Some roadways may not be able to withstand that amount of concentrated weight, or may not be suited for navigation of that length vehicle. Ron is right, you may have a problem driving it through other states, even though they will honor your own state's registration, title and inspection law. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
Stan, I can't say that I've ever paid attention to those signs. I've never had a problem, maybe I'm lucky (or stupid, it's such a thin line). In South Carolina the signs read 'All Trucks Must Stop'. I discussed this subject with the State Transport Police (DOT man) in South Carolina and the signs apply to commercial vehicles only. If you are non-commercial, you are not required to stop. RVs are non commercial. But you are required to be legal on weight and they can have you pull on their portable scales to check your weight any time you are on a state road. There are 2 types of legal weight, axle limit and registration (tag) limit. The axle over limit fee is 10 to 100 times more than the registration over limit fee. The DOT man said that most of the officers were truck enthusiast and were very good at estimating the weight of rigs so they don't waste time checking rigs that aren't grossly over weight. Any of us doing this sort of thing will be better off checking directly with the agency that operates the inspection/ weigh stations in the areas we travel. Just don't pull in in your rig first, if you aren't legal it could get ugly & inconvenient. Kyle4501 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I never had a problem acting dumb. (I wish I said that out loud before actually typing it) | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
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stan: "stainless" was me getting mixed up with something else, yeah, mild steel it is. the rear frame of a scenic is designed to support a pair of 4 cyl diesels... they converted to 8v71's in the 60's, and i'm sure it's fine with that weight in it. i think it's actually a bit lighter than the dual 4's. however, i don't think static weight will be an issue. the series 60 weighs 300 lbs more than the 8v71, true. however, the 2 support arms and v drives for the stock radiator and ac drives are very heavy, and the stock ac compressor should easily weigh that much and then some. modern rads are lighter too. i don't have the weight on the stock ac pump handy, but my guts are telling me that i'm going to come out of this a few hundred lbs lighter in the engine compartment than it is now. i'll know for sure when i pull it out. i can lighten it up even more by moving the stock battery location: http://www.scenicruiser.com/images/owners/gregbush/GregBush04.jpg to somewhere a bit further forward. the problem is going to be the "twice as much horsepower" thing, and the "how do i get rid of five times as much heat?" thing... one of the things im going to do is add a second air intake in the rear, opposite the stock one. i may or may not keep using oil bath, but if i do i think i'll need to make it bigger (add in a second assembly?) still on the fence about it. another thing i want to do is to change the look of the rear engine door. the original looked a lot more like this: http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/fgruin/misc/buses/fg_scenicruiser_rear.jpg and i'm not sure, but i think in motion the air will have a tendency to come through the side radiators. if i remember correctly that's a high pressure zone. the question would be, would opening up the rear engine cover like they used to be, help cooling or hurt it? (it would give a much smoother air path through the engine compartment, right now it sucks in the sides and blows out the bottom) gregs monster-kitty-powered cruiser: http://www.scenicruiser.com/images/owners/gregbush/GregBush03.jpg looks like it may capitalize on this concept a bit.. (put a reverse pitched fan in and call it a day?) but i'm left with the distinct impression that a pair of big side mounted rads would be better.. if nothing else because that's how most big buses are done and there has to be a reason. one thing i am going to do is make it so that the rads and so on will pivot out of the way so i can get to everythng back there easily. i suppose it's time to pull the engine lid off, dig out the surveyors tape, the duct tape, coat hangers, and the chase car and go do some tests. (i'd love some input here) john: yeah, nothing got my attention quite like some of the bridges back east. a major highway really shouldn't have a 12' high bridge over it. i wasn't sure if my 11'9" was with the bags up or not, the pucker factor was very very high kyle: "registration (tag) limit" do our cruisers have one of these, and if so, what is it? i know we were about 30k off the assembly line, and someone threw out the 46,000 lbs number, but i really have no idea here? as for the rear axle, yeah, i'm still sorting that out. can i swipe the one out of the frieghtliner and flip it over? thanks everyone for the input -dd | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
RE:"registration (tag) limit" In South Carolina, the vehicle tag (for cars and trucks) has a weight associated with it. You can pay more to increase the tag weight rating. I think the RV tag may be exempt from this, but I'm too lazy to find out since it has current tags on it & I ain't driving it now. :^( If you flip over the truck axle, you may have lubrication issues as far as oil flow is concerned. Check with the axle manufacturer. If you keep it right side up & rotate it(turn it so that it points backwards), then it will be loading the gear teeth as if in reverse while you cruise down the road. The tooth profile & bering arrangement may or may not be designed for that, here again check with the axle manufacturer. YEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH! kyle4501 PS: electric fans - There, at least I referenced something in the original thread! :^) | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Kevin: When I look at an S60 sitting beside a 8V71 it just looks like a lot bigger engine. It is definitely a lot higher and a lot longer. What are your plans for the extra length. I don't think there is much room to move ahead so you may have to extend the rear. If you do that you will be able to design the rear any way you like. The extra height I asssume will be inside the bus and must be accessible for servicing. The rear bulkhead that the engine rails hang on will not tolerate much butchering without some well engineered reinforcement. The bulkhead will be affected a lot more by the position of the motor mounts and the total length of the engine than just the weight. I just re-read you post on the shear plate and I might mention that Greyhound put the 10 ga plate on the outside of the frame and another thinner aluminum plate on the inside. The outide plate was covered with an aluminum skin to match the rest of the bus. | ||
| Russ Barnes (Neoruss)
Rating: |
Kevin, I'm just reinstalling a 12.7l, 500+ hp S60 into my Neoplan that had a 475 hp 8V-92. I have changed to the B500R World Transmission from the HT747R. It's about 8" taller than my top mounted turbo 8V was. The engine is a lot longer, but the transmission is shorter resulting in 12" +/- of added frame that I had to build as well as moving my two radiators back (belt drives). I chose to do that rather than shortening the drive-shaft and suffering possible vibrations. You also need bus mounts, the truck ones that I had from the Freightliner donor would have vibrated the coach too much. That was about $600 of Prevost parts. I talked to the factory engineers at Neoplan before starting and they said I'd over-cool using the HUGE 8v-92 radiators, but that was easier to control than the opposite. I also had the rear (Mercedes HD) rebuilt because the 1650 ft/lbs on a rear with 260,000 miles might have been a stretch. Just like all the street-rods and sprint cars I made 30 years ago, except HEAVIER. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Kevin, I did some math using 500 hp as a starting point for your S60 and I came up with around one million BTU per hour heat rejection at full horsepower. This is only intended as a starting point, but I would not be surprised if you already had a good part of that with the original plant. It looks like you will only need a third of the heat rejection at legal speeds, running on the level. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
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so the super cool ninja engineer (bart hansen) at detroit got back to me via e mail last night, and sent me the spec sheets on the engines in question, so now i just need to crunch me some numbers and see what i can come up with this. they're here : http://www.warbusaur.com/specs/ if anyone is interested. -dd | ||
| Russ Barnes (Neoruss)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin, That's the program I had installed into the DDEC IV computer I installed on my 12.7 l 60 and then I played with some fuel items and exhaust items and you'll have a strong motor. I found it hard in TN to get a used 14 l motor. My way was to make a deal, I bought the '93 Freightliner, took the motor, radiator, air to air, wiring, etc. and for less than half the cost of rebuilding the 8V I had the four cycle. Now where I blew my budget was bring that DDEC II up to the DDEC IV specs and raising the power from 400hp to 500. It took; cam, injectors, bullgear, sensors, computer, wiring harness and a few other things to do that part. Probably ended up the same cost as the professional rebuild on the 92, but more torque and longer life. (Of course while I was at it I replaced bearings, compressor, injector pump, etc). Also for bus you need new oil pan and from what Bernie at Bernard Bus (Who has done this many times) told me, use good bus mounts. I got mine from Prevost. I also had to get a bus intake for the air hoses to clear the floor above. Footnote: the torque for this motor is greater than the B-500 specs I have, so if you to it, STOMP THE GO PEDAL - softly. | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
yeah. was wondering what i'm going to do about the rear end... baby it and hope i don't break it until luke has a flash of brilliance maybe i suppose i could use the one out of the donor truck and put the engine in the rear bay and make her mid engine... that would give me cathedral celings in my bedroom in the back *sigh* really wish i had somewhere close to work on the bus, i'd be a lot further along. -dd | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
truthfully, i'm not really doing this for more power, that will just be a nice side effect. my main reason is more gears, and the shift linkage. (it's pretty wasted. 1-2 is a bit stiff, and 3-4 is almost a 2 hands on the lever, one foot on the dash kind of situation) this bus really shouldn't be a 4 speed. we have mountains over here, and while i appreciate that i can climb all of them in second, a 20mph top speed while hill climbing sucks. (slow downgrades i'm happy about) with more horses i could probably pull them in third, but with a linkage that has 15 pivots, 3 bellcranks, 2 flex tubes and you have to pull out the heater core and the ac to get to the bottom one under the stairs (that's also buried under a ton of dirt sucked into said heating system) i'm just frustrated i can probably fix the linkage. but it's going to take removing every last bit of the parts that pivot, and polishing the snot out of them. that alone seems like a good reason to go with something else. .. and this bus really shouldn't be a 4 speed anyway. more ponies will make the "not enough gears" problem much less, but won't solve the linkage issue. ... and i'm not sure about my transmission. (it pops out of all the gears, but i couldn't tell ya if that's linkage or of it's the tranny) there was a lot of suggestions my way about a 6 speed auto and the 8v71, or possibly even an 8v92ta ... looks like a nice way to go. thing is, if i'm going to have to replace the engine, and the transmission, it seems like it makes more sense to go looking for something that will get the best fuel mileage and reliability in an 80,000 lb rig, as it should do a hair better in my (currently) 25,000 lbs coach. the detroit guy said i don't want a new engine, as i'll have a very hard time breaking it in because my rig isn't that heavy. all the contenders are electronic engines, and most have electronic auto transmissions behind them. (it's going to be an auto unless i want to fix my linkage) i was looking really serious at putting an 8v92ta and a 9 speed manual in her when i stumbled on the 10 speed eaton fuller autoshift.. there's a gentleman at lukes thats very knowledgeable, working on an mc something-or-other he's going to take to nicaragua. he was in the middle of putting in a series 60, and the reasoning all made sense all i've been recommended is the 14L. i'm sure i can get by with a 12L series 60 with the 10ea behind it, but it makes more sense to me to go for the big one. are the blocks the same, or is this a smallblock / big block situation? (i don't have a spec sheet on the 12L, is the 14L a stroked 12L, or?) if you're getting 500 hp reliably out of a 12L, and it's lighter, that may be a better way to go, but it sounds like you were looking for a 14L.. can you tell me what the differences are? (i'm still learning here thanks -dd | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Kevin, according to some recent specs that I saw, there is no overall size or weight difference in the two engines. The specs showed bored AND stroked for the 14L. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska |
