| Author | Message | ||
| visitor Rating: N/A |
I've been wondering if anybody, in doing their conversion, has taken the shortcut I'm considering. Rather than removeing the inside skin (ceiling & walls), I want to just cover over them with a vapor barrier, maybe something like bubble foil, and then cover with new plywood and finish off the normal way. Will I have problems with condensation and sweating @ the ceiling? I realize that by not removing them I will not be able to inspect and repair any possible problems. Is there any other reason that I shouldn't do this ? Do any MC9 conversions out there have the original ceiling in theirs? Thanks Mark | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "I realize that by not removing them I will not be able to inspect and repair any possible problems. " What you don't see, you won't have to fix. Why look for problems? You'll be driving that bus for another 500k miles before any ceiling structural problem rears it's head. Worry about the undercarriage, the frame, the engine mountings, instead. I'm leaving the OE ceiling. In the hot summer Floriduh sun, the bus seemed cool enough, with just the windows open. I ran the bus Aux AC unit during a 110 degree day, and had no problem with cooling. Added in$ulation is always a plu$, but prepare your$elf if you're going to add in$ulation to the roof. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Where are you going to run all the wires for lights, speakers, backup camera, etc? You want to cut the minimum number of holes in the main beams above and below the windows so unless you run surface wires, the roof seems to be the logical place. | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
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John, "What you don't see, you won't have to fix. Why look for problems?" Sounds like something the plant manager of an unscrupulos coach converter would say.  Mark, It depends on what your plans are for the coach and how long you plan on keeping it. If you have read this board for any length of time, you have learned that it is the unknown, hiding problems that can cause massive infusions of cash and time into your project. I found several places in my GMC's ceiling that showed no water damage from inside, but once I removed the ceilig panels I found saturated bags of insulation. Not trying to scare you into tearing out your ceiling, just inform you of my experience. Yours may be perfectly fine. Good luck Cliff | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Cliff - ("unscrupulos coach converter " ... Ah HAR de HAR HAR .....) Yeah, ok...that aside... When we buy an old, tired and worn out bus, we don't have to go looking for problems, they will look for us soon enough. I'm always amazed that so many backyard bus converters seem so concerned about "codes" and safety issues, but so willingly disregard the manufacturer's engineered design. Especially the engineering and employment of the monocoque design, where the skin (inner and outer) comprise the basic structure; it is the skin(s), the window frames, the framework, that when combined, provide the strength of that engineered design. GM, MCI, Prevost, and Eagles were all put together to last generations of use. A lot of chassis twisting and bending took place through all those millions of miles, and yet the bus remained as intact as the day it rolled from the factory. As far as I'm concerned, that's one hell of a great piece of engineering. Why take the basic components apart? Why remove the ceiling panels - that are part of the basic monocoque design- if it's not absolutely necessary? Thin insulation (like this poster mentioned) can be applied, and a second layer of finish material applied over it. Wires and ducts can be run through the bays. If ducts are not planned, and no bays available, surface mount (flexmold) wiring is perfectly usable. If water's been seeping into the bus. there will be signs of it somewhere. I'd wager that the conversion process, with all the holes we put through the roof for vents, etc, make the leakage problem an issue, where there has been no issue before. How many times will any of us peel away the ceiling, to insure our vent isn't leaking? I try hard to live by the words: "If it ain't broke; don't fix it" | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
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When I went "looking for problems" on my MC-8, I sure found some. I removed the inside aluminum skin and found some rusty frames inside the wall. They weren't all that bad and I've since repaired them. Maybe they wouldn't have caused any major problems on the bus, but all the bags of dripping wet insulation in the walls sure were nasty. There were really no signs of leaks except for one spot. That one place had the least rust. I'll be pulling down my ceiling 'looking for problems', add some insulation, run wires, and be done with it. After all, how difficult is the ceiling to remove and reinstall pre-conversion? How hard will it be to do when the conversion is finished? | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
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I have the original ceiling in my MC-8. Where I have had to access the ceiling (e.g. for the ceiling skylight vent in the bathroom, holding tank vent pipes) I have found the insulation, sheet metal and the structural members to be like new with no evidence of any deterioration. I tend to go with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it approach". FWIW Dave Dulmage | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
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A couple of things to consider on an MC9 1) The interior ceiling is NOT structural. It is plastic bonded to very thin aluminium and held is place with very few small screws in trim strips. It comes down easy and goes up just as easy. I vote to remove the interior and check for rust and water leaks. I did - found a few minor ones - and fixed them. It will never be easier than now! 2) The insulation isn't great up there - but it works. You may want to re-use some. I found a couple of sections in bad shape in my MC9 3) Running wire is easy when the panels are down. 4) I cound a couple of areas where condensation was a problem - mainly on the surface of the ceiling at the trim strips that hold the panels in place. I bet you want to fix that now rather than later. Good luck Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
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If it ain't broke don't fix it. It is broke, its substandard insulation. If it can't be seen you don't have to fix it but that doesn't mean it "aint broke." Ed | ||
| JoHn mC9 Rating: N/A |
"It is broke, its substandard insulation. " I'm gonna' call MCI and complain RIGHT NOW. I can't imagine building a bus that's going to carry human lives comfortably, and that costs so much money, using substandard products! It's a disgrace, I tell you! A DISGRACE! (wHeRe'S mY MeDs?) | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
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as many of you know, i'm gearing up to completely overhaul and modernize a scenicruiser. it'll look vintage from the outside, and no roof airs, as i think they're ugly it is very likely that i will be keeping all the windows, but i'll be limo tinting the side ones. a friend of mine has a gooseneck cattle stock trailer he's turned into a pretty nice camp / haul trailer for his blacksmithing business. one of the things that was done was the interior has been sprayfoamed, but not yet paneled in some spots, so it's easily accessible. i've been thinking about doing this to my cruiser. in essence, taking the package racks, celing panels, and windows out, doing the entire thing (roof and walls) and then trimming and flattening where necessary to put it all back in. by the way, i'm looking for the old aluminum fluted side panels that go between the windows, and a couple sections of package racking if anyone has any laying around.. someone cut the package racks in this in 2 places, one for a fridge and one for.. i have no idea. anyway, his trailer is really cozy when it gets cold and windy, not to mention the sound deadening qualities i'm sold on the sprayfoam, i'm just looking for opinions, suggestions, gotchyas, experiences, etc. anyone care to comment? -dd | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
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Mark - I guess it comes down to your personal set of goals. I use the word set because for me it is a collection of considerations that drove my choices. For us, time was of the essence because we wanted to use the bus for family trips and my oldest was a year away from high school when we bought the bus. We are not going to full time it. Weekends, long weekends, and a week at a time are the dominent themes. I was already self contracting the construction of our house. This kept the tools busy enough without the bus project. And so on the list goes. I bought a decent bus that was already converted that could use some updating inside. I do a little here and there and use it in between. If I had started with a shell like you are, I would have done exactly what you are talking about as it is not a full time home for me and energy management for such short durations is easy enough. Take a look at the reasons that you are doing a bus conversion and make sure that your choices largely support those reasons and I think you will be happy. All part of doing it "your way" and of course, your milage may vary! Craig - MC7 Oregon | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Re poor indsulation: When MCI designed the MC series of busses with the 71 series engine they had an unlimited souce of heat and they installed a large A/C unit to keep the passengers comfortable in any weather. The bus engine ran 24 hours a day and diesel fuel was cheap. If your conditions are still that way, there is no need to update the insulation. | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
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I have never heard anyone say that they regretted putting superior insulation in their coach. I've heard a lot of people complain that they should have taken the time to insulate it right. It's a lot harder to go back and re-insulate after the conversion is done, and you see the mistake. Sure insulation is expensive but you save on heat and A/C costs, so its free in the long run. I suppose all the people who say not to do it have no insulation in their house either. Ed | ||
| marcschlabach Rating: N/A |
I have an mc9 . I removed the panels and ran all my wires that i needed thru the ceiling space then put the panels back on . Now is the time to look in there for problems, not after you have to remove cabinets and ceiling covering. Doug is right. Put new insulation in if needed. It's not expensive. Marc | ||
| Ed (Ednj)
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Kevin said- by the way, i'm looking for the old aluminum fluted side panels that go between the windows, > Kevin I'm sitting here looking at them in the International Bus & parts catalog. | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
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for a scenic? wow. umm.. how much? -dd | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
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I don't disagree with the assessment that insulation in an MCI could be vastly improved. However, it's easy to get caught up in trying to make a coach perfect, at the peril of taking an awfully long time to ever to get to the point where it can be used. Life can be fragile and unpredictable. That's not to say that essentials or personal priorities should be overlooked, nor should structural problems be ignored. I spent a fair amount on my coach when I first got it that went well beyond meeting the safety inspection requirements. These were things that had potential to need replacing down the road, many of which will probably now outlast my use of the coach. FWIW Dave Dulmage | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Ed - "I suppose all the people who say not to do it have no insulation in their house either. " Please read the initial post that started this thread, and what the poster was asking? These threads always seem to get morphed into a push and shove match between personal principles and the haves and have-nots. There's no reason the poster can't add insulation the way he suggested, and have a warm and comfy bus. In fact, his way would insulate the interior from the heat conducting and heat radiating metal ceiling. And, if he's not going to be in a radically cold or hot environment, he could live without additional insulation, also. There are many, many rvs and conversions that do not go to the extreme with insulation. Jeeeeeeeee-zues. You guys get all worked up over -0-. (and yeah, my house is insulated. And NO, I'm not going to rip the sheetrock off to double-check) | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Here is the original question: "Will I have problems with condensation and sweating @ the ceiling? I realize that by not removing them I will not be able to inspect and repair any possible problems. Is there any other reason that I shouldn't do this ?" Several people gave valid reasons for not following his plan. It has nothing to do with 'have and have-nots'. He didn't say he couldn't afford to do it right, he asked a question and got answers that gave him a choice. I think most people want to do a good job. In a lot of cases they have started a project that they have neither the talent or the resources to complete. These people would be much better off to buy a factory built motor home. If they lack the ability and money to do a proper conversion they face the same obstacle owning any bus, even one converted by someone else. | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
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John, Remember what month it is? Remember that "Naughty or Nice thing"? Do you want an onion in your stocking AGAIN? Santa may make you a "HAVE or HAVE-NOT" Cliff | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Aww come'on Cliff... I'm already a "have not" and I always got rocks in the mantle sock, cuz coal was too expensive. There's no one single "right way" to do -any- job, including converting a tired, worn out commercial vehicle; one that's too worn out to be of any use to make money transporting people for hire.... into a somewhat comfortable vehicle for part-time camping. How many people tear the walls and ceiling out of their house to see if something's leaking? There -are- other ways to tell, instead of tearing things apart. And even when a leak is noted, we just go on the roof and fix it, not tear the entire house apart. You ain't gonna' fix an outside leak from the inside! The opinions were all good. Some of us treat the conversion process as the hobby, and take time (years and years) to get it perfect (then sell it and start again).... while others of us prefer to go camping in our own home-made RV as soon as possible. Man, some of youse guys oughta' lighten up..... "I heard what Santa said as he was leaving, so of course I was expecting three hoes." [a nony mouse mc9] | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
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John, All kidding aside, I hope you are coming to Arcadia. I look forward to meeting you. I have a cooler that I will need help emptying to decrease the excess weight for my return trip. Doing my part to conserve fuel and keep the economy moving! Cliff | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Yea... what Cliff said! Where is that cooler going to be anyway? Ace | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I'd love to make one of these rallies, and will soon (I hope). There's been some family health probs that have taken priority, so about the only amount of bus stuff I've been able to get into lately, has been here on I@n's board. (oh.. I did manage to get a windshield replaced last week!) I sincerely appreciate the invite, btw! I hope and trust all debaters and "arguees" realize that nothing here should ever be taken personally. Life's too short to begrudge anyone. (There, Cliff.... Maybe I'll get one less rock in the sock this year.) Cheers! |
