| Author |
Message |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 9:54 pm: | |
OK I salvaged a Webast which had been removed with a cutting torch, rebuilt it and installed it yesterday. This morning it was 20F and my 6V92TA would have been difficult to start. I connected the webasto (still using aligator clips at this point), the fan started whining and the circulation pump spinning and after 20 seconds, woof! it started, there was a bit of exhaust for the first 30 seconds and it cleared right up, then I noticed smoke comming from the engine comnpartment, AI opened the flap and found it was steam from the coolant I had spilled when installing the unit. After about 5 minutes the unit shut off and I climbed aboard and touched the starter button. Rmmmmmmmmmmm quick as a flash with no gray smoke at all, purring like a kitten!
This thing is GREAT!
Now I have questions...
1) I would like to be able to use engine heat / webasto heat / 110vac / Propane to supply hot water for the coach and for the radiators which heat the interior. I am considering installing a 10 gallon 110vac/Propane water heater with a heat exchanger for engine coolant and wiring the circulation pump so I can turn it on independantly of the webasto. In this way I could plug in the water heater and turn on the circulation pump on the webasto, this would circulate coolant through the webasto/engine and radiators through the heat exchanger in the water heater and supply the bus interior with heat when plugged in to shore power or by firing the propane side of the water heater. When driving I could just turn on the circulating pump and this circulation would heat the bus as well as heating the water heater. I could connect the circulation pump and water heater to a thermostat in the bus to maintain a constant interior temp when parked in the winter.
Any thoughts?, a better way?, cautions?
Chris |
KC Jack
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 2:34 am: | |
Normally you would not have both propane and diesel (webasto). The redundancy and flexibility is a great idea but I don’t think you will find a water heater that will use 110v, propane, and heat exchange from the webasto / engine fluid. Usually a webasto is purchased so you can get rid of propane. So, if you want to heat hot water with both diesel and propane you will probably have to get two separate water heaters. Theoretically you could preheat the engine with propane if you had enough pumps & valves but it would be a complex setup.
It is a good idea to not pump the engine coolant through the webasto but use a heat exchanger to transfer heat from one system to the other. This will allow you to service the systems separately. Also, a leak in one system will not disable the other.
It sounds like you may end up with quite a few valves to open & shut at various times. Will anyone but you know how to operate the system? Make up a chart of each valve and the proper position for each possible configuration. Better yet, install electrically actuated skinner valves and run the system with a series of centrally located switches.
Sounds like fun. Good luck.
Jack in KC. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 9:45 am: | |
I have a Webasto that works off the engine heating system-- all I did was tie into the heater lines that were already there for the driver's heater/defroster. I then added two box heaters and an RV water heater that works off 120v electric and/or propane with an engine heat exchanger. The heat echanger for the water heater works great to heat the water while driving, but trying to heat the domestic water with the Webasto only gives me warm (not hot) water. The heat exchanger for the RV water heater is simply a short pipe welded to the outside of the water heater tank so thinking of using the water heater and circulation pump to heat the engine or the interior would not work.
An alternative to the RV water heater as I described above is a marine water heater with the heat exchanger. The marine water heat exchanger has more coils inside the water tank to heat the water so it works better with the Webasto. But it is available only in electric, no propane. Also, trying to use this water heater to heat the engine and interior would not work very well since it is only 1500 watts.
Here is good drawing of how to tie the Webasto into the existing heating system:
http://www.hydro-hot.com/Webasto/webasto_school.html
That is how I installed my Scholastic Webasto and it works fine.
--Geoff
'82 RTS AZ |
Jim Stewart (H3jim)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 10:42 am: | |
Its a good idea to keep the two systems - bus and heating system - separate. If you use a hot water heater with heat exchanger, and any of the radiators to heat the bus, they are typically more sensitive to oxygen in the water. Read, they will develop leaks over time if not maintained well. This includes PH, so its also a good idea to have a coolant filter / conditioner in your lines. If a leak does occur, you probably want a separate system from the cooling system in the bus so you can still drive. When you talk to folks that have lots of experience with auxiliary heating systems, they agree that on the separate systems thing. Have them connected via a heat exchanger, so you can heat the engine, or use engine heat for domestic hot water etc. I bought a heat exchanger from Dick Wright, it can transfer over 40,000 btu, so it works well for heat transfer in either direction.
Ditto Geoff's comments on the electric part of a combo hot water heater. I have one that can heat through a heat exchanger or use electric. The electric is only 1500 watts, and can barely heat the 11 gals in the heater, much less the engine block too.
The Cadillac system is the webasto / aquahot / espar, heating hot water that's used to heat the coach, bays, heat domestic hot water and preheat the engine. Separate systems, using a heat exchanger. Aquastat's, several zones with thermostats, summer /winter valve so hot water only goes through the hot water heater in the summer.
David Haines at Vehicle Systems 800-685-4298 x 127
Dick Wright at Wrico 541-744-4333
are two great resources for system design help and materials. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 12:14 pm: | |
If you are worried about leaks in the single system all you have to do is shut the gate valves off that supply the engine heat to the interior. Most (if not all) buses already have these valves in place.
I have the single system in my bus and it works great-- in fact, I am currently full-timimg in my bus as I take care of business in California and ran my Webasto for heat for two weeks until I got worried about running low on fuel. Now I am using little portable electric heaters and let me tell you-- it "ain't the same"!
The only drawback to having the single system that I can see (but can be remedied) is that you don't want to pre-heat the engine while you are camping. It makes the Webasto run more than it needs to. My solution is to have a by-pass loop to just heat the interior. This works fine, but when you do this you have to open the loop periodically to get the air bubbles out of the system and into the engine expansion tank.
--Geoff
'82 RTS AZ |
Jerry 4106
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 12:33 pm: | |
I have a Hydro-Hot system and really like the way it works. One of the benifits I have found with a seperate engine preheat loop during cooler weather is that when you shut down somewhere you can use that amall circulating pump to put to use that 180 degree heat that is stored in the 2-3k# of metal in the engine & transmission for a few hours of heat for the interior. -- granted is doesn't last long but shame to have all that heat go to waste. Once I feel I need more heat than the engine is supplying is just simple shut down the engine loop and turn on the diesel burner. -- Jerry |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 1:20 pm: | |
It seems that the hydro hot and aqua hot are basicly what I am talking about building, they both employ a webasto as the heat source and from what I can tell they are a webasto and some electricly controlled valves to specify where you want the heat going. Is this correct? If so perhaps I can build something similar with the webasto I already have by adding some valves and a water heater with coolant exchanger. I would like to be able to use shore power when availavle for heat simply because it is often free, maybe I will look into building something utilizing several water heater elements in a tube, like an on demand electric water heater...
Chris |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 9:02 pm: | |
My Espar coolant diesel coolant heater has been in use for 23 years with no problems with leaks. Same as Webasto, just a different name. It is all one system, continuously connected to the engine coolant/heater lines. there is a 20 gallon accumulator tank that is bled when the system is opened for any kind of service. I guess bleeding it also reduces the amount of oxygen available to cause corrosion problems. There are two valves that can close off the system from the engine if needed. Plumbing to all the six heat exchangers was done with Gates Green Stripe heater hose. It is very expensive, but if you are burying part of your heater, engine cooling system you need the best. The only problem I had was electrical, when a previous owner fed 24 volts to 12 volt circulation pumps and they had to be replaced. That experience with a 23 year old common coolant system should encourage anyone who wants to use it. The nice thing is that all six heat exahngers work off engine heat when we are driving. |
mikeEMC
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 5:40 pm: | |
I had a bus i used as storage and used a old 10 gal 1500w hot water heater hooked up to the exsiting hurry hots and a small 110v pump nothing fancy but it worked well. |
R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 10:08 am: | |
Steve...where, in the coolant line is the accumulator placed? ie, just before, just after or??? I have been considering doing the same thing.
I have had an annoying problem with system air, having to bleed often. Finally placed the pump at same exact level as the Webasto, rather than 3 inches off the floor. It has changed dramatically, but I can still hear air in the system, I imagine due to heat expansion.
Have a Merry Christmas!
Thanx,
RCB |
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