| Author | Message | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: |
so i've been doing a lot of designing for the subsystems in my scenicruiser, while i come up with the coin for the engine and transmission i'm putting in it... and i'm now down to plumbing... i do *not* want roof air. during my trip to lukes and back i had to *push* the bus out of a rest area, hit the starter, and then let out the clutch to get it to start because it was so cold :/ so, i'm trying to find solutions, and one of the things that gets thrown at me a lot is hydro hot, aqua-hot, and webasto... i figured out what an aqua hot is, and what a hydro hot is, by the "vs." doc on their website. but i don't understand the webasto at all. can someone clarify all of this for me?  it seems to me that these are dual circuit diesel fired hot water systems ... one circuit is an engine block / radiant interior heaters loop that circulates engine coolant, and the other is a fresh water loop that gives you domestic hot water. or at least i think that's how it works. basically, i *need* heat for the driver, heat for the room in the back, and the bathroom and shower rooms. call it 7 if i put some in the lounge... i'd really really like engine preheat. (the series 60 isn't going to be as bad as the 8v-71, but it could still really use it) i was thinking about how i could do all of this except engine preheat with the stock system, but the heater core, ac core, and the stock lavatory system takes up a bay that, while i haven't measured it, looks about the same size as the one my 180 gallon diesel tank lives in, and most of that is air box... if i pull all that out, and the blowers, i can gain a whole lot of space. even more so if i turf the ducting. not sure how i'm going to do ac though. suggestions? | ||
| bruce knee (Bruceknee)
Rating: N/A |
Save up $400. and call Nick at Nimco in Newark, NJ. Buy a Proheat. Used takeouts, hell of a deal. | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: N/A |
It seems to me that the proheat doesn't give domestic hot water. Is that correct? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Nick - You can buy an RV hot water heater that includes a copper coil around it's inner liner (that contains the water for actual usage). The copper tubing is connected to the vehicle's cooling system and the water in the tank is heated as long as the engine's running. There is no reason the Webasto, Proheat, or any other make coolant water heater, cannot be used to heat that same tank with it's copper coil! In fact, adding a copper coil around the tank liner of any home electric hot water heater, would work in the same manner. But hey.... there's an awful lot of "on demand" hot water heaters on the market, most that cost a fraction of the price of these models... and are much less complicated. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
okay, i hadn't heard of the proheat. 400 bucks sounds reasonable... what models is nick selling, and does anyone have some suggestions on how to make it preheat... (seems like it might be problematic to copper wrap the tank so i can circulate engine coolant through it to preheat the engine...) hmm. seems to me that i need 3 on demand hot water circuits... one for engine preheat, one for heat, and one for domestic hot water. 3 different systems sounds like a major pain in the butt. what's a good solution for the ac? the gen4 product looks like it's everything i need, but i have a feeling that it's ac circuit isn't going to be big enough to keep my bus cool. (i'm going to sprayfoam it, but im not getting rid of the windows) boy that looks purty. bet it's expensive :/ -dd | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
hmmm. okay, did some digging on the proheat gen4 and what i came up with was: Engine 13.9HP, 2cyl Kubota Alternator 40 Amps @ 12-14 volts DC Generator 4,000 watts @ 115V, 60Hz AC AC 12,000 BTU/hr Heating 5,000 & 10,000 BTU/hr and it looks like it engine preheats too. everything but domastic hot water. looks like a really nice system, but i have no idea how much cooling 12k btu's is.. (or how much heating 5-10k is for that matter) i apreciate how cool this thing is, but i'd like to do it for less than $7,000 ... hrm. but then, it is a diesel generator, and if i'm not driving ac units, 4k is enough for my needs... (i've got a 5,000 watt aims inverter as well) i don't mind building custom stuff. the plan was to buy a good diesel generator in the 15kw range, and run the whole coach as electric. listening to everyone here has changed my mind about a lot of it, so now i'm looking at alternatives... i basically need a small fridge, (shorter than the windows) a microwave, and some kind of heating / ac solution. i have a tendency to put in a second alternator to run house batteries, and i was probably going to lay in 6 more 8d sized deep cycles. for a total of 8... (the inverter goes on the 6) and charge it with a separate alternator. thing is, i don't want to punch holes in the roof, but if i can find a way to do *one* and keep it invisible from the ground, i'm fine to use it to vent a propane fridge and genset... thoughts? -dd | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Rating: N/A |
Go to the Home page, click on Coach Convertors Bulliten and then go to Epic support and check out the Heating with hot water. Answers alot a ?'s.You can use heat exchangers to do your heating. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
umm.. which homepage? it's not on http://www.aqua-hot.com/ anywhere i can find? -dd | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
... also doesn't appear to be linked from the home page of busnut.com, but i found it here http://www.busnut.com/seecs.html via another article.. is this what you meant? -dd | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: ".......i have no idea how much cooling 12k btu's is.. (or how much heating 5-10k is for that matter)....." The normal RV rooftop air conditioner is 13-15 btu and one is not enough to cool a 40' area down initially (after sitting sealed in hot southern sun). The average RV propane heater is 20-30 btu and can keep a 40' RV fairly warm in 30 degree weather. You would need 2+ to keep it warm in sub 0 weather. "i don't want to punch holes in the roof, but if i can find a way to do *one* and keep it invisible from the ground, i'm fine to use it to vent a propane fridge and genset... " The standard RV propane fridge can be vented through the side wall, it does not have to go through the roof. You can see many examples of that design, at any new motorhome dealership. Kitchens that are built into slide-outs vent the fridge in that manner! | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A |
Sylverstone, I'm actually using something different, I am installing a Hurricane Heater, which is also a diesel fired heater, with block heater, hydronic heating and hot water supply! It even has a backup electric heat around the boiler(I bet that makes the lectric meter whirl), I'm impressed with the way it is built, very well made and all stainless. I'll keep everyone updated as how it works when the time comes, good luck on your decision! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Pat - The Hurricane Heater Manual (a PDF will download) The model big enough to "do it all" is expensive (boat model is around $70k!) Unless your talking about this water heater: Hurricane model C045XL? This is a 45k btu heater... Isn't that a bit small to heat the engine, bus radiators and water tank (and associated pipes and hoses)? | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
dd, to make it easy to figure in your head, just allow 5,000 BTU per 1,500 watt electric heater. A heat pump can give you 10,000 to 15,000 BTU on 1,500 watts. An air conditioner is just a reversed heat pump, so it can get fairly close to the same numbers. A propane furnace will probably produce 30,000 BTU or more per hour, and a gallon of propane should give you somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 1/2 hours of burn time. A golf cart battery doesn't hold enough energy to run an electric heater for an hour; they're only good for about 20 minutes between recharges. So, a bank of six batteries feeding your inverter while running one portable heater is good for about two hours between charges. Those numbers should make it a little easier to keep your energy needs straight. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
john: well, i was hoping to get out of having any obvious signs it's an rv from the outside... (i especially hate roof airs on a scenicruiser, it's sacrilege) given a choice between rooftop and side i'll take the rooftop, but the roof is curved, so that gets complex. i dunno, need to think about it some more i guess. (or run electric) ... i'm going to sprayfoam everywhere i can reach inside the bus, so how much ac do i need to keep it cool in, oh, say the south dakota badlands in the summer? (we go through there every year) i'm not sure how much propane stuff i want, truthfully. pat: i'll check it out. i was almost thinking about picking up three diesel fired on demand type heaters and just kit bashing my own system, as it really can't be that hard. john: i didn't realize i had to heat up the rads and so on as well as the engine, i figured heat up the block, fire it up, and it'll take care of the rest when the thermostats open? tom: i'm not running electric heat, i know better (i have a little portable catalytic propane heater if i absolutely have no other options) not sure what a golf cart battery is, but i have 2 workaholic 1400 8d-mhd's in it now to start the bus with, and i think 6 more of them for the house circuit would run my inverter for at least a few hours with a 1500watt load on it, but that's not what i'm going to do, since you lose a lot in the conversions. i want diesel powered heat sources, because i have diesel on board. any problems with running antifreeze through your internal heating system? ... seems to me that a quick and dirty solution here would be to plumb the engine heater circuit through the radiant heaters in the bus, with two thermostatically controlled valves and a hot water heater... so if the valves are open water circulates through the engine, if they're closed it doesn't... hrm. starting to think that a beefy (15k+) generator and soundproof the hell out of it might be the way to go for the ac. -dd | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A |
John my thinking was more as a backup, I really liked the idea of the dd heat doing more for the comfort zone in the bus while traveling, I'm sure it can't handle all three items at once, up here in the Frozen North (just south of Canuckistan)it gets cold, I also liked the idea of using it more as a preheat for cold morning starts. I have two coleman basement heat pumps to carry most of the load. Yes that is the system I bought that you linked to, not the 70k one, that one would really blow the budget! | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Every noisemaker only pumps about 1/3 of the fuels power into making electric. The nice way is to use another 1/3 from the noisemakers coolant to do work for you. Heat the coach? just heat domestic HW? pre heat the engine ? All work , but KISS is really important to a system you can live with. No one has yet figured an EZ way to use the exhaust for actual work , but 1/3 more of your fuel is going up that HOT stack! FAST FRED | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: N/A |
I'm planning on a hydro-hot myself and it looks like that will solve most of your trouble. They say they use about 4 gallons a day with the hot water wide open and all the heaters wide open. I personally like the idea of being able to heat the engine, the coach, the water, as well as have a separate circut for the wet bay to keep it from freezing. And to answer your question these heaters heat antifreeze that heats the domestic water and also circulates to heat the rest of the systems. Hydro-hot says all these functions are performed continously with the Aqua-hot and with hydro-hot the coach heat will be suspended during high hot water loads i.e. showers. I'm also figuring on an electric coach but one that I can run mostly off my inverter. I'm using basement air (that will have to run on the genny or shore power for any period of time)and the hydro-hot to keep the roof line clean as you are. I'm guessing I'll have a TV antenna, Sat dish, two or three small circular vents (not the huge things that stick up a foot) and one pipe for my sewer vent and exhaust pipes on the top. Pretty clean I think considering the options and I'm going to run as much of this stuff to the center that I can so it won't be as obvious. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "a quick and dirty solution here would be to plumb the engine heater circuit through the radiant heaters" That's the way it's been done in RVs for quite awhile, and school buses also! There's a lot of school buses that have heaters at the front, midway and in the rear, all using the engine's coolant for heat. There's no reason we can't use convection type radiators, and run our engine coolant through them. Adding circulator pumps, or diverter valves can allow for "zoned" heating, if desired. In fact, adding a coil of copper tubing around the hot water heater's inner tank can keep that water damned hot while the engine's running. Pat- I'm wondering if a 45k btu heater would keep all of the above mentioned items hot enough, with or without heating the engine. It would seem to me, that a conventional home oil (or gas) hot water heater would be more practical...(?) Info FF- Volkswagon used the exhaust pipe to heat the interior of the vehicle, via a heat exchanger. There's really no reason it can't be done with a bus. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
fred: ever seen one of these? http://oikos.com/esb/49/gfx.html -dd | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
nick: from looking at the differences, basically the aquahot is twice the size, stainless instead of galvanized cabinet, and doesn't have the solid state electronics... it has 3 pumps instead of two, but does one less zone for some reason... the "engine preheat is optional equipment" has me a bit concerned. how do they suggest it be done? -dd | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Rating: N/A |
John: I have a Hydro-Hot it's around 45k BTU. It's been -15C, 5 F, I have the electric heat on the boiler going but it will only keep it around 2C, 36 F. If I want to work I/S I turn the diesel on and the coach is up to 20C, 70 F in 1/2 hour. Ron | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Ron- Does it keep the bus warm after the bus interior has been brought up to a comfortable temperature? | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello. Lots of good discussion in this thread! I will suggest that you want to consider having the capacity to warm up your coach from cold in a timely fashion. I will also suggest that being able to forget about the embarressment of forgeting to plug in and then waiting for electric engine block heaters is of some benefit. (She already has more than enough ways to put us on the Alzheimer's watch, eh?) I have an MC8, up in Canada (Canukistan?) and a big Webasto DBW300, 104 000 BTU diesel fired coolant furnace. Stock coach HVAC has been maintained. So, I have the big heater core and fans still working. All the stock double pane windows and no extra insulation added, just the stock fibreglass and the stock interior panels. Bare plywood floors too! The Webasto was mounted in the middle bay by the previous owner, plumbed inline to the main forward heading coolant pipe. The HVAC fans have a bypass circuit that allows their use with the ignition turned off. In owning this bus for the last 7 winters, and being intimate with it before, in its previous life, I have been unable to find winter conditions to beat it. My more northern countrymen and those in Alaska will report on more extreme conditions, but I am proud to report that in my personal experience at minus 30C / minus 22F, this big Webasto will bring it up to temp. For the record, the bus had sat for many days prior, with the battery switch turned off. In -30C/-22F, I turned on the batteries, turned on the Webasto, and after 20 minutes of Webasto burn, the bus started right up on the first pull. Now, from extremely stone cold, it will take longer to warm it up inside, but this past weekend, in making preparations for heading out to Arcadia, it was -7C/19F. The system was up to temp and cycling the heater water valve in about 20-25 minutes. Since I have no zones, the engine block has also been brought up to temp at the same time. Power wise, to accomplish this, the Trace 4024 inverter shows a draw from shore power of about 10 amps at 120V to power the big HVAC fans and the Webasto. The batteries were already fully charged, so they weren't interfering. This model of Webasto is a little thirsty, consuming 4 litres per hour/ 1.2 US gallon per hour when running flat out. The burner assembly consumes 130 watts at 24V, the circulation pump is good for 104 watts at 24V. Once the coach is warmed up, the burner will cycle on and off according to the amount of heat pulled out of the coolant, just like your furnace or air conditioning at home cycles on and off. This configuration also lets me run the Webasto at the same time as the engine. If you get stuck and have to idle to stay warm, in winter conditions, the 8V71 cannot make enough heat for itself and the interior. Note to four strokers: a Series 60 makes even less heat at idle than an 8V71. All the new buses have a coolant furnace installed stock to supplement the engine heat. While idling, the Webasto will keep the engine up at operating temperatures, keeping you warm inside, and there will be less smoke when you drive off! Now, I will be the first to note that my present set-up is wasteful. There is no need to heating the engine block just to be comfortable inside, and the stock HVAC fans draw in a lot of outside air, which must be heated. I will eventually install some baseboard radiators, a water tank compartment zone, get the engine bypassed, domestic hot water loop, etc. But, as a northern resident, I would NEVER be without a coolant furnace installed in anything with a heavy diesel motor in it. When it comes to winter conditions, I think it is safe to suggest that there really is no such thing as too much heating capacity. So, for the minimalists, one of those neat Honda 3000 Watt gasoline briefcase generators, the really quiet ones, my coach, in its present wasteful configuration, would still leave a complete 15 amp circuit available for other uses. If the Webasto fails, the Honda will power two of those electric cube heaters, or one engine block heater and one cube heater. Do you really need more than 7-8 KW of generator in a bus conversion? Also, save some money, the various tractor trailer turn-key packages for generator/heating/AC, may have some decent generator capacities, but they don't have the HVAC capacity for the interior size of our buses. They are sized to take care of the same kind of drivetrain, but only the cab and bunk of a tractor. For fun, price Wrico's similiar sized generators, and with the change, find the bus wrecker near you to buy a used take-out Webasto or Espar for $500 or so. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Volkswagon used the exhaust pipe to heat the interior of the vehicle, via a heat exchanger. There's really no reason it can't be done with a bus. Yes my 53 Porche had a similar setup (but NO heat exchanger) as does a whole bunch of tiny aircraft. The hassle is a cylinder head leak will have you DEAD or voting Democrat . Have seen setups on boats to take a bit of heat from the dry exhaust , by wraping the exhaust with SS tubing , and using it with water to clean the slush off the deck. The SS coils were dry , untill the water pump was turned on. But hard to actually USE in a bus camper. FAST FRED | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
buswarrior: i guess i'm just not sure what a webasto does anymore the plan was: 1 loop for block heating 1 "keep it unfrozen" loop (basically, a loop that runs under allt he tanks and so on, to keep them warmish. (call it 40 degrees, i'm just trying to prevent bad things... a frozen blackwater tank would be very bad)... as i'm trying to keep my big cargo bays empty, i may not need to do any of this, depending... 1 loop for coach heating the scenicruiser has a lowered floor walkway that's structural, so i'm not removing it... i figured finned copper tubing down both sides full length, like an underfloor radiant heating system without all the work, should keep it pretty nice. then i need domestic hot water. seems to me that i need to take a beefy diesel fired hot water heater, lay 3 3/4" copper tubes side by side and wrap them around the tank tightly (solder it when i'm done?) and put a pump on 2 of them that's thermostatically controlled (block heat, coach heat) and use convection to move the "keep it unfrozen" loop... the block heat loop would use the stock heater outlet and inlet on the engine... seems like the best of all of it. engine heat helps out the hot water heater when the bus is running, when it's not, it doesn't suck the temp down much at all unless water is moving. i'm left with the impression that this is sorta what an aquahot does? i've got a plasma cutter, a mig, and a tig. fred: wouldn't a set of marine "wet" exhaust manifolds work for heating water up instead of coiling the exhaust? -dd | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
fred: wouldn't a set of marine "wet" exhaust manifolds work for heating water up instead of coiling the exhaust? Sure and they are easily avilable for most water cooled engines used in noisemakers. The wet manifold does quiet the engine better , but I'm not sure you would get that much more USEFULL heat than just a cooling loop. Although it is common to use a 50% larger radiator to help dump the heat from the exhaust , when sticking a boat takeout into a coach. FAST FRED | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
no idea, i was just discussing it with someone offlist and thought i would throw it out there, since it seemed like a quick and dirty approach *sigh* 40 ft shop, 10 ft wide, 12 ft high. that's all i want for christmas... (i'll make it work, trust me) ... it's raining here, has been long enough i'm wondering if the cruiser can be made a swimmer... seriously thinking about an ark, ya know? -dd |
