| Author | Message | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
Does anyone use propane Catalytic Heaters in conversions and, if so, how do you like them? Please, may I have responses only from actual users. | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
Not sure if you call them catalytic or not, I had one of the unvented "blue Flame" styles. 15,000 btu was more than enough heat, but the moisture it made was a distinct disadvantage, almost rained in there. | ||
| Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
Rating: N/A |
Two admonitions about Catalytic Heaters: The "Catalyst" is so named for its ability to promote the reaction between the fuel sources (propane/air). The product of this reaction (if 100% efficient - and that's only attainable in labs...) is CO2 and water. Problem 1) The reaction is taking air from the room to complete the "burn" and replacing it with CO2. True CO2 won't kill you as fast as CO, but try holding your breath for 30 minutes and see how you do (think Apollo 13 here...) Problem 2) The reaction releases water vapor into the air - ask anybody what happens when you drop a 120V CD-player in the toilet - you get a good "tickle" and the darn thing seems to sound like s*** afterwards... Wood, carpeting and the fiberglass insulation that is not well covered next to the exterior sheet metal will act like a sponge for this vapor. This could lead to all sorts of other problems (Sheet metal cancer anyone? How about mold?) The problem with Catalytic Heaters is that they really need a separate fresh air source and an exhaust vent - which is great if your air intake and exhaust is the air you're trying to heat, but bad if you need to open a door or window to relieve the adverse effects. The typical heaters that you can buy are intended for garages or large rooms where there is enough fresh air circulating in a large space to offset these effects. Cheers! -Tim | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A |
I used one years ago in our first coach as we couldn't afford a propane furnace yet. Worked ok,BUT you will get a LOT of moisture inside on all the glass and metal surfaces on the coach walls. If you provide much ventilation, you will need an extra catalitic heater to make up for the lost heat.I would not use one again in MY coach except for an emergency. | ||
| Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Rating: N/A |
M last three rigs I have used them. I would not use anything else myself, I get no detectable mosture at all. However, my rig is well ventalated without opening windows, and I seldom am in weather lower than freezing and then just long enuf to get somewhere warmer. I'm a full timer and follow the sun. | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
You my dear Edward, are one smart fellow! | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
We only use a non vented heater to short term winterize the coach, if were NOT aboard. The water tanks , plumbing and such is all located aft of the bathroom door. By locking the door open and using a pillow or two as top & botton seals only the aft portion of the coach gets to be heated enough to keep everything liquid with minimal propane use. Not a way to heat a coach with anything alive aboard. Works for me, There used to be a brand called Cat that was vented , but they priced themselves into oblivion. For a non road coach the Cozy brand stuff works well, but is NOT able to handle the vibrations of road use.No electric required ! FAST FRED | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
We had the small olympic 3600 BTU in our 4106. It really worked well where you just wanted to take the chill out of the air. We used it a lot in the winter in AZ for evening usage. The small unit uses about the same amount of oxygen as a third person on board. Mosture may be a problem. If we tryed to heat the bus in MN at less than 0 degrees we would get a good coat of frost on the windows. In our current unit we do not have a cat, not for any reason other than no place to put on. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
I Just purchased a "Glow Warm" yesterday at Lowes. I have it on low and is very comfortable. I had it on high and it was too hot. it has 3 settings low, med. and high. 6,000 10,000 and 16,000 btu's I'm not sure it's gonna cut it when i get back to Wisconson though. I'm in Murfreesboro ,Tn at the moment. and it's rather warm for this time of year. I do plan on putting this in my new bus along with my regular propane furnace. I'm also going to have 2 quick disconects one forward and one aft so I can move it to where I need it the most or buy a second smaller one for the bed and bath area and then have them permenantly plumbed. The moisture is a welcome thing to me as I am a singer and the dry heat and dry winters realy kill my throat. If it's too much moisture you can always get a small dehumidifier. I'm interested in seeing how much propane usage it has though. I was going through 20 gallons every two days in wisconsin with my regular furnace and that was using it as minimal as posible. Like Siskal and Ebert I give it a 2 thumbs up. Captain Ron | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
You may be surprised Ron. I had one like that in my 4905 and never found any weather that it wouldn't have handled. As you say you can run it on high for a short time, then back it off to low. I would expect it has an oxygen depletion cutoff on it, you may have to give it some oxygen once in a while if you are sealed up pretty tight. I found a couple of cracked windows or such would do the job just fine and not let in too much cold air. Only a couple of times did we actually leave it on at night. You will also find the darned thing just sips fuel, I used BBQ bottles, they seemed to last forever, MUCH better fuel economy than the RV type furnaces, just go outside and feel the exhaust if you don't think they waste fuel.. | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
Someone enlighten me...Cap't Ron mentioned quick disconnects on his propane lines. Is that kosher? I'm sure it is technically feasible, but is it legal? This is for my information only, and should not be construed as a comment into the discussion at hand. I don't have gas of any type in my rig, and was just curious. Cheers...JJ | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I can report that it is in widespread use, I have several friends that use them. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
I especially thank those of you with actual experience. They are on sale at Camping World and are made specifically for RVs. They have oxygen depletion cutoffs. They look like ideal heaters to me and so far your posts have reinforced that feeling. Extra moisture in winter is a plus. I hate the dryness of forced air heat and don't have it in my home. Another thing I like is that the small ones will not be difficult to place around the bus. They also sell a portable one. I had never heard of them before and so far can't really find anything not to like about them. I think any single pane glass in cold weather will condense a lot of moisture no matter what heat you use. Fresh air is no problem in my leaky ole 4104 with the original windows!! These heaters are not "Ventless heaters". there is no flame. I wouldn't even consider ventless heaters because they give off CO. Quick disconnects can be backed up by plain shutoff valves and be completely safe. Again, thanks guys for giving me a lot of very useful information based on real experience. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "These heaters are not "Ventless heaters". there is no flame. I wouldn't even consider ventless heaters because they give off CO." No matter what you burn, it's going to give off CO. And the consumption of oxygen is quite impressive! The radiant Catalytic Heaters were not designed for this type usage; you are at your own peril. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
Gus, I would reconcider those at Camping world. they are very pricey. If you want to use that type of heater I would go to Lowes or HD and get a larger one like mine for the front salon which is usualy more area, and get a smaller one for the bedroom area. They put out a cosiderable amount of heat so you should watch clearance issues near combustables. And yes there is a flame, how else could they produce heat and why would they have a pizeo ignighter? there has to be a pilot light that is the only flame you see the ceramic eliment glows red hot but you realy don't see the flame. but believe me it's there. I'm going to mount mine on a hinged board on the wall so it can be swung out and better directed to the length of the bus rather than from side to side, I believe this would be more eficient. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
My understanding is you put 1.3 galons of water in the air as combustion byproduct for every galon of propane burned. 2 or 3 gal a day would be almost an entire bathtub full of water tossed about the coaches insulation behind the walls every month. If you ever wonder about rusting the tubes in the walls , and under the window rails , keep wondering! The moisture will severly reduce the insulating value of many insulation types , FG in particular if its not in an airtight water proof bag as GM does.Foam depends on open cell or closed cell, and the quality of the instalation. Caviat Emptor. FAST FRED | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
Spray insulation might be better, but in mine I had put the insulation in by tightly packing it between the wall stiffeners. The condensation formed on the inside of the walls, BEHIND the insulation, and found cracks to run out on the outside, staining the bus, as well as into the bays. Big mess, dehumidifer might have helped. | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
Instead of a heater with low, med, and high, it might be a good idea to consider the 'blue flame' models. These are available with modulating thermostats and use no electricity. I use one in my house as supplemental heat and it works great. | ||
| Cable (Fe2_o3)
Rating: N/A |
Gus; We have 2 cat heaters in our 4104. One up front, and one in the bath/bed area. We also have 2 forced air furnaces in similar locations. The cat's are used to knock off the chill in the morning or evening or when on the road because they require no electricity. The furnaces are used when in an area where elect. is available. The O2 and moisture aren't a problem as She Who Must Be Obeyed smokes, so I keep a window open when I want to breathe. There is also a vent over the stove and 2 ceiling vents . If I were to build another bus it would be the same. Hope this helps.... Cable | ||
| Jim Stacy
Rating: N/A |
There is a difference between "catalytic" heaters and the ones with ceramic radiant panels or obvious flame. The catalytic heaters such as sold by Camping World are approved for sleeping areas, the others are not. The propane quick disconnects are the same type as hydraulic hose lines. They seal on both sides when disconnected. We have used two of the Olympian catalytic heaters for several years in our '04. When in use I crack a window open on one end and slightly open a roof vent on the other end. This certainly takes care of moisture buildup. The reason we have two units is we bought the middle size first and most of the time it would drive you out of the bus when on low so we bought the smallest size and that's the one we use the most. (We are smart enough to head for South TX when Oct is over and you need massive heat.) We have the usual Suburban forced air furnace but the catalytic heaters are the answer for boondocking. No electricity and very little propane use. There have been thousands of these in use by boondockers for many years without a problem. The Olympian has been made for decades and is still in business, I see the newest models have doubled the btu output. I'm not sure that was necessary. I hope they can be run low enough. These units are a lot like having a wood burner running. Just a slow, steady, "no draft" heat. IMHO a good product. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
Cable, Thanks, it is good to hear positively from an actual user of these heaters, convinces me I am on the right track. Simplicity is the key here and these things really are simple from the user's standpoint. One thing I don't have to worry about is fresh air in this bus! Capt ron, I figured the ones at Camper's World were designed for vibration and that one for a house would not so the extra bucks might be a good investment? As I said before, any kind of heat in a bus with single windows and Al sides is going to cause a lot of condensation, no way around it except maybe a good spray insulation job on the sides and double pane windows, I have neither. If there is an igniter why is a pilot needed? One post said the cat heater gives off CO2 and water, if so then there is no flame. I wasn't too sharp in Chemistry but I don't think this heater has a flame. It is not the same thing as a ventless heater which does have a flame. David, What is a 'blue flame' heater, sounds like a plain old gas heater to me? John, Well, actually they were designed for this type of use, that is the reason they are on sale at CW. As I said in my last post, they have oxygen depletion cutoffs. | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Gus, you can cut out window shaped inserts outta 3/8 or 1/2 " celotex insulation board for nite use or when your camped out. One side is black and doesent look to bad from the outside. It helps alot. And i would always put a gas cock just ahead of a quik-coupler!!!. cheap insurance. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Worth a look: THE PLATINUM CAT's key features is its catalytic combustion process. I haven't read the specifications for the "Olympian Catalytic Heater", but it would seem to me, that a catalytic heater is a catalytic heater, and venting is absolutely needed. | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
It is my understanding that the catalytics produce no CO. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
If I'm going to heat with anything aside from electric or hot water, I'm going to want to insure there are absolutely no fumes that will kill me, my wife, or our pets. It would be prudent to have the inlaws stay in it for one winter, just to make sure. | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
Gusc, You're right, a blue flame heater is a 'plain old gas heater.' My comments were mainly directed to Captain Ron and the Lowes's heater with three settings. By the way, does anybody know how much more CO/ CO2 a blue flame heater produces than a catalytic heater? | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
By the way, does anybody know how much more CO/ CO2 a blue flame heater produces than a catalytic heater? Thats like wondering if you hit the wall at only 80 instead of 100 weather you would be "LESS DEAD". Even if you ventilate enough to stay sort of alive , the water behind the walls is KILLING your coach. FAST FRED | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
FF, 80 vs 100 is in no way similar to what I asked. Mine was not a moisture question. You're not required to respond, especially if you don't know the answer. | ||
| Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Rating: N/A |
I'm currently using a Blue Flame in my rig (MC5A) and can get NO readings on my detector. A little known fact is that propane burned at low pressure, and a BLUE burn pattern produces little to no co2. I confirmed this by putting my detector close to my propane stove and if a medium flame, burning blue (not yellow) is maintained I get no reading. If, however, I burn a steak I get readings of up to 40 ppm right away! I also found a problem with my reefer unit with the detector. I kept getting readings of around 15 ppm without either the heater or stove being used. Then I noticed it was worst when winds blew against the starbord side of the bus, where the reefer is. turned out there were unsealed cracks around the unit that allowed CO2 to enter the bus (RV). I sealed the cracks and get no readings now even if using heater and stove at the same time. The point here, in case you didn't catch it, is the meter was sensitive enough to catch the input of harmful fumes from the reefer but gets NO readings from the propane heater (which is approved for indor use). I don't even crack open a window because the crack in the door seal (non-seal really) provides enuf air! As for moisture, I find more condensation in my rig on a rainey day than I ever have from using propane. Ed | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
Edward, Very useful information based on experience, the best kind. If a blue flame won't kill me a cat certainly won't. I don't think the people worring about moisture get it yet that any metal with warm air on one side and cold on the other will cause condensation. The primary concern about moisture is not to let it get into absorbent insulation where it won't dry: otherwise moisture is not a problem. Sprayed, bagged or solid insulation is not a problem. The installation instructions for my Norcold ref say that up to a 1" crack is allowable at the sides and top of a ref so they don't seem to be really worried about it either. They are much more concerned about raw propane leaks. | ||
| John Bessette (John_bessette)
Rating: N/A |
Gus I like my Olympian cat heater i use it all the time night or day I do crack a roof vent about a half inch just to be safe. I dont see alot of water though. It doesn't use power John4106 | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
David....ease up....enjoy life... FF is one of the things that keeps this board so interesting. In five years I haven't known him to intentionally throw dirt at anyone, though many seem to carry a big chip... and FWIW, he has a lot of food for thought, but as he says so aptly, do it your way.... Two heads are better than one...three better than two and so on. What a great board Ian....and thanx again for the opportunity to participate....invited or not!  Have a great New Year everyone! RCB '64 Crown Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
RCB, I'm aware that FF has a lot to contribute, and is generally right on mark. I also think he (and lots of others) feel so strongly about things that he HAS to comment, even if it's not relavent. 80 vs 100 mph.... I'm asking about CO and CO2 emissions. That is relavent. We'd already covered the humidity issue. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
David, At the same time, all things considered, it's fair for a poster to advance a point that's "not all about you" and instead targets a point that might be significant to the "greater audience" other than the original poster. If you've been on the BB for any length of time, you recognize that basic topics recur - frequently. Having spent a significant amount of time with FF, one-o-one, I note that his ascerbic wit is both intentional and purposeful, designed to make people THINK, which is what I believe this BB is supposed to be all about. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Edward, I think your readings must have been for CO, NOT CO2. As far as I know, every carbon containing fuel will produce as much CO2 as the carbon present is capable of producing with complete combustion, if there is complete combustion. If combustion is incomplete, then there will be some CO, depending on the fuel and the fire. Your burned steak produced CO. I think the results you got with the blue flame heater are the reason that propane powered forklift operation is allowed inside a warehouse, even though it's not quite the same thing. Something that Fast Fred hasn't mentioned on this thread like he has sometimes in the past is that there can be contaminants in the fuel that can change the picture. Also, I don't know what kind of instruction book you have there, but our manual for our Norcold goes to some length to make it very clear that we should prevent any air leakage between the front and the back of the refrigerator. Why do you suppose that the blue flame heater produced no CO but the refrigerator did, running on the same fuel? We get some occasional production of CO, as well, but we aren't sure of it's causes, yet. These detectors are a big help, but we still have to hunt for the sources. One other thing that we've found out is that the detectors that have a wall wart that puts out 9 volts AC run just fine on 12 volts DC from the coach. Ours takes about 50 ma., which is much better than keeping the inverter awake. We just cut the line from the wall wart and hook it up to coach power; it doesn't even matter which way the connection is made. I do think it would be a good idea to put a very small fuse in that circuit, comparable to the current from the wall wart. The units that come with a backup battery will still need the battery to keep them from giving the low battery chirp. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| john wood
Rating: N/A |
Proper combustion in any gas appliance produces water vapor and co2..... plus a trace of co and other "stuff" but is for the most part inoccuous. Where the problem CO shows up from is when you have any combustion problems, such as a spot of dirt or some such crud on the "target" that causes imperfect combustion......... or.... if the flame is in an o2 depleted environment such as may be found in a tightly sealed bus perhaps? Side note; There was a company, recently departed, that manufactured a 12vdc powered cat heater with a vent and a wall mount thermostat! Figures they would go out of business......... probably folks were too cheap to buy a safe and easily controlled appliance? | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
OK,now that we've gotten all the BS out of the way, I'll ask one more time. Does anybody know how much more CO/CO2 a blue flame heater produces than a catalytic heater? I ask this specifically, because I know about moisture (I have a blue flame heater at home). I've searched for several hours and can't find any info on the subject of CO/CO2. As a correction, a gallon of propane produces .8 gallon of water vapor (not water). | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Do apples taste better than oranges? This topic of "which one is worse" doesn't interest -me-, since I've long ago decided I'd never use one inside my RV... However, there's enough reading on the web for you to drill down through and figure it out for yourself. The answer really isn't all that easy. As mentioned previously, a lot depends on the fuel, and catalytic properties. Goooooogle: flame vs catalytic CO | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks John. I'm more curious as to the 'relative' safety of each, as I use a blue flame heater at home and may switch to a catalytic. I might use one in the bus while I'm converting since they're cheap. I have a diesel fired forced air heater that will be installed eventually. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
David - What brand/model is that diesel one? That's more what I have in mind for our bus. I had been informed that I'd have too much trouble using a conventional home oil furnace, due to the changing air balance of a moving vehicle... But hell... there's other ways of keeping warm while the engine's running! | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Rating: N/A |
John, It's a Stewart-Warner 30k BTU. I paid around $60 for it. It has an odd multi-pin connector on it and it came with no documentation. I found a similar one on eBay (hot water version) and the seller kindly sent me the instructions, wiring diagram, etc at no charge. If you find one similar, let me know and I'll get you the documentation. Stewart-Warner wanted over $50 for this. |