| Author | Message | ||
| Rob King Rating: N/A |
I am doing the electric wiring. I want to have a switch at the coach front door for the bedroom lights and two in the bedroom, one near the entrance from the bathroom and one near the headboard. Samething with the living room lights. One switch near the front coach entrance and one near the headboard in the bedroom. These are 12 volt "puck" ceiling lights in both places. I know in 120 volt you have to wire as 3 way with 3 wires and use a 3 way switch. What I don't know, since it is 12 volt, do I still have to wire with 3 wires and 3 way switches? Thanks for your help Rob 91 LeMirage Missouri | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Rob, Yup, exactly the same circuits are used, the voltage doesn't make any difference. To make it easy on you, it's totally ok to use the same 3 way 120 volt switches you'd use in your house, if you can't find any RV style switches to your liking... | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
Rating: N/A |
Or you could use latching relays. Mechanical ones ony use current when they are being switched, and no current in either the on or off state (except to run your load). One version even comes with two swtiches on it so each of your on /off switches can be illuminated when the light in questions is on. | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
No Rob, you may not use AC rated switches. To be safe (and legal) use only switches rated for DC. Yes, they are difficult to obtain, and they are expensive, but not without cause. I won't belabor the point, so to see lots of info on it, try The Archives and search for DC switches. Although a bit more complicated to do, I really like Jim's suggestion of the latching relays. Ask around your area to locate someone to assist you with this very important (and potentially hazardous) portion of your project. Good Luck...Cheers...JJ | ||
| Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
Rating: N/A |
I just thought of a quickie way that decends from digital logic that may work - however you would need to run +12v to both switches and a ground (or 1-wire and ground locally). If you're only using two switches, try using single-pole/double-throw switches (with NO center off - otherwise called "on-on"). Unlike wiring these switches as an "A/B selector" switch - you would tie one side of the 12v circuit to the center lug (typically labeled "2" when 1-2-3 are the connections) of the switch - and the each outer lug ("1" and "3") to +12v and Ground respectvely. The same is done with the second switch except that the center lug is attached to the other wire going to the fixture (obviously this will require electrically isolated fixtures as a ground connection at the fixture could cause a dead-short or prevent the lights from turning off). Basically what this will produce is an "Exclusive OR" circuit. Operation would be: 1) When both switchs are providing +12v there is no voltage across the fixtures so they are off. 2) When one switch is providing +12v and the other is providing a ground, there is a 12v potential across the fixtures and they turn on. It doesn't matter which switch is which so long as they are different. 3) When both switches are providing a ground, there is no voltage potential across the fixtures so they would be off. Now some may ask, "What happens if you need to control a circuit that is polarity sensative?" (this would be the case for LED/flourescent type fixtures or fans). There is a fairly inexpensive device called a bridge rectifier that can be placed before the fixture and will provide a + and - connection that will not change polarity. Cheers! -Tim | ||
| motorcoach1 Rating: N/A |
remote contrl or how ever you spell it | ||
| motorcoach1 Rating: N/A |
oh by the way grumpydog has a relay switching system that works well use orion relays or seamens with amp control that will regulate the wattage your needs .good info but lomg run stuff in the wireing. ues the right wire in doing this ! | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Another use for DPDT switches is to have a set of lights that can operate in parallel or when switched , in series. This cuts the Voltage in half , reducing the light output by 3/4 or so. A nice way to have normal or low level lights with out the cost of a dimmer. Works for me, FAST FRED | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
I share this with you all, I don't make enough on this stuff for the time it takes to pack it up so its more a share thing for me.  Low Power Slide Controller, Operates 12 volt D.C. slide motor with current limiting setting for overcurrent (end of travel) or can be used to operate halogen lights (up to 6 amps) in either TWO step operation or single ON/OFF operation (M-1 and M-2 switch polarity) or can reference ground or +12 depending on how you hook it up. http://www.rvbus.net/modules.html  See http://www.rvbus.net/accessories/slides/1-ways.html or http://www.rvbus.net/accessories/ for how to hook them up. | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
Dr. Dave, I thought since you were in the sharing mood, I'd spruce up your message a bit. Thank you for this information. And although you are selling something here, it is important to note that it speaks directly to the question, admittedly you're not going to make a ton of money on this $3. item and, most importantly, you have a link back to BNO from your web site (thank you  ) Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
JayJay, I absolutely disagree with you. AC house swithes are FINE on the DC you'll find in a bus or RV, and there will be absoultely NO problem using them, period. If you wish to get into an argument, I'll be happy to oblidge, but know that you will be going up against 45 years of electronic design and engineering experience in high power electronics systems (I'm an EE and I owned a design/manufacturing company for 35 of those 45 years, and I'm no dummy about this particular subject). Basically, as long as you stay within current ratings of the switch and are only talking about 12 or 24 volts, a switch is a switch. DC causing destructive arcing in any switch is only an issue above 40-50 volts or so. On 12 volts DC (or 24), any AC house switch is going to be MORE THAN FINE. | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
Rating: N/A |
David, Do you sell any other intellitec stuff? like their latest PMC controllers? | ||
| BrianMCI Rating: N/A |
"AC house swithes are FINE on DC <circuits>..." "...Basically, as long as you stay within current ratings of the switch..." Gary is right in those statements, BUT as a diesel mechanic for over 25 years the problems I see associated with using AC switches for DC applications leads me to believe that in most instances the person installing the AC switch has no clue what the current draw is and just assumes that a switch is a switch is a switch. In almost all instances the AC switches that I've seen fail in a DC circuit were in fact due to destructive arcing over time. I'd suggest that when using an AC switch in a DC circuit that you CAREFULLY match your current draw to the rating of the switch. Brian | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Further to what Gary states, UL only looks at DC circuits over 50 volts. Arcing below 50 volts is not a problem in their opinion. Current rating is the important factor. All the equipment I manufactured for many years had to be UL listed and DC or AC circuits below 50 volts were exempt from their scrutiny. Richard | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"AC house swithes are FINE on the DC you'll find in a bus or RV, and there will be absoultely NO problem using them, period. " But since there not to ANY DC code or spec, your betting your coach on this fellows Opinion. For those that will take the effort to do it correctly (this is not "BESTITIS") there are simple sources for DC rated wall switches. www.backwoodssolar.com 208.263.4290 Has them listed in their FREE catalog 10a max at 125vdc $6.00 each, ivory or brown. The 3 way switches are $8.00 same colors , all fit in std box. Free shipping, While I am a user of the marine codes and wiring , and have great difficulty with the RVIA garbage code, the use of RATED materials to do a proper and safe instalation works for me. Do it your way, FAST FRED | ||
| T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A |
Amen Gary I have had house switches In my MCI-7 for 19 + years now with no problem what so ever. Tony | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Ian, I thought my mind completely went when I saw the pictures. I didn't remember adding them or I didn't think that I remembered adding them. Thanks for doing that too... I carried about 300 of those modules to Bussin 2006 and due to where I was parked I couldn't set up a table so it all stayed in the bay of the bus where it still sits. Thanks Aagin... dave... | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I'm sure most of you don't care, but after 40 years (this year) of electronic and communications engineering, I can truly say both Gary and Brian are right. How can that be? I'm not going to get technical about voltage, current, and contact coatings. The reality is you can get AC and DC contacts on relays and switches that will work either source. I buy lots of Potter& Brumfield relays to switch both AC and DC loads from 12 vac/dc to 135 v ac/dc. The P&B catalog specifies the same relay with the same contact coatings for both. Granted, they have different contact material for higher currents, both AC and DC. And that's the key -- how much current are you going to switch will dictate the duration and intensity of the arc produced. With higher voltages, the open / closure speed factors into the arc equation. I've seen slow open air switches at 115 KV produce sustained arcs 24 inches long. I have a video of a 30 FOOT LONG arc at a 500 KV switch. I have had AC switches break down using 12vdc through them. But I've also had AC switches break down running AC through them. The question you must ask yourself is "How long do I want this thing to last?" Simply, if you want one, five, or ten million operations (typically) from an expensive switch or relay, you need to pay attention to lots of parameters. But if you're using a three dollar switch four times a day, why worry about it. The bottom line is you can engineer these issues to death. Use common sense. Don't use a 15 amp switch (either AC or DC) to isolate a 400 amp battery array. But two to ten amps of DC lighting? The switch will generally outlast all of us. Personally, I will be using four relays controlled by a simple (for me) logic circuit. I'll have four zones for the ceiling fluro fixtures -- drivers area, living/kitchen area, bath, and bedroom. Each will have one or more momentary push button switches to turn a zone on/off. And I will have a botton by the bed that will give me an instant "all on" or "all off" capability. One button on my key fob will have the same function. Sort of like an X-10 wireless system for AC lights. Only mine will not use carrier signals through the power lines since all my lighting will be DC. Just some food for thought. No argument intended. Chuck Newman Oroville, CA | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry folks -- I meant to say "Both Gary and JJ are right". But you probably already figured that out. I'm going back into my hole. Chuck Newman Oroville, CA | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
FF says QUOTE "But since there not to ANY DC code or spec, your betting your coach on this fellows Opinion. For those that will take the effort to do it correctly (this is not "BESTITIS") there are simple sources for DC rated wall switches. www.backwoodssolar.com 208.263.4290 Has them listed in their FREE catalog 10a max at 125vdc $6.00 each, ivory or brown. The 3 way switches are $8.00 same colors , all fit in std box. " END QUOTE I have reviewed the information listed above and nowhere could I find any mention of who or what the approval agency is that "rated" the switches. Further they are listed as not available and do not order. Other information in the catalog indicates UL or ETL listing on some products, but not the switches. Regarding boat material, it generally does not carry UL listing and that is the only agency that can list items like this for our specific application in the industrial marketplace. I previously manufactured electrical equipment for both the industrial and marine market place. Getting equipment listed for the marine marketplace was a piece of cake as opposed to the requirements for the industrial market place. Just because it says marine does not specifically make it a better product. (Although it may well be). Richard | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Fred says: "But since there not to ANY DC code or spec, your betting your coach on this fellows Opinion" Fred, that's a bit overkill don't you think? Geez, if you're using switches at all, you're turning something off that's been on, or something on that used to be off. What is the worst thing that can happen if a switch fails? Whatever you turned on will stay on or it will stay off. If this happens, you deal with it. I seriously doubt that you're betting your coach on my opinion... more like you may be betting a stubbed toe in the dark at worst... yes there are "critical" switches in a vehicle but we're talking about lightswitches here, not starter solenoids or brake light switches. Even critical switches fail though... The DC rated headlight switches in my Crown have failed, more than once now. These are DC rated switches that have passed lots of scruitiny. Switches fail, of all breeds. But if you tally up a list of what switches have failed from all the guys on this board, I bet you won't find a predominance of AC lightswitches in that list. So far I've not had one AC switch that I've installed in my Crown or any of my other busses or DC operated vehicles fail (and there's a lot of them). But probably 4-5 of the nice DC-rated factory switches from various vehicle makers have. Bottom line? Do what you want to. Use DC switches Use AC switches. Use relays. They all are basically two hunks of copper or silver that get smashed together and allow electricity to flow, or not. It's not like a failing lightswitch is going to make your bus catch on fire unless you've done some really stupid things with your wiring.... as long as your switching device has a current rating ABOVE that of the load you are controlling. THAT is the key to this whole silly thread !! And for what it's worth, remember that tungsten filaments have something like 3-4 times (or more) lower resistance when they are cold as when they are operating... this translates to a lamp that normally draws 5 amps when running can easily present a 15-to-20 amp pulse to a switch that turns that lamp on. This is what can mess up switches, even DC rated ones. That's why my Crown headlight switches failed... Crown actually screwed up in the design rating game, at least for that switch!! I actually got a hollywood technical oscar about 12 years ago for creating a low cost solution to this problem... they have these nifty 22,000 watt lightbulbs that draw 100 amps RUNNING on 220 volts... turning them on trashes even generators because of the massive inrush pulse...it's something like 1500 amps for almost a full second!! Yes, I know about this stuff.... | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Rating: N/A |
Seems like we have hammered this nail befor. I also have had a bit of experience in the field of electronics and electrical work. About 29 years now. The AC switch will work fine in a DC circut as long as the working current is kept to no more than 2/3 the AC rating of the switch. The 2/3 rating is not arrived at by a scientific formula but by the understanding of arc energy and long time experience using switches that were made by companies that are in the business to make a profit. It really boils down to what Chuck is saying. All switches regardless of the application have a cycle life. Largely due to the arc energy depleting the contact area. How quickly this happens depends on a array of variables some of which Chuck mentioned. The most destructive being the rate of current. If the current is kept to a rate of 2/3 the rating of the contact the life span is very exceptable. As the current is increased the life span decreases. Typically a failure only results in a switch contact sticking together and not allowing you to turn off your lights. Tim | ||
| Al Johnstad Rating: N/A |
Recently, I had the alternator changed on my car and the mechanic failed to properly tighten one of the terminals. The arcing caused the post to be completely melted off. I know this is different than a switch, but still pretty darn hot. Al | ||
| T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A |
Go to www.mpja.com look under switches, every thing they have In this catalog Is cheep a good sorce. Tony | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
FAST FRED, Rated switches on DC and UNRATED boat wire on AC?? Regards Jerry | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A |
Rob What it comes down to is how you feel about using ac rated switches in your application. The lighting load you are describing isn't what you would call and extreme situation. I'm sure that many of the guys responding here have used ac rated switches in a dc application at one time or another. I've never had much luck finding dc rated switches that really looked any good or would match what you see in homes or RV's. If I was switching 125vdc, I'm sure I wouldn't use ac rated switches, but at 12 or 24vdc operating voltages I probably would! Using common sense is probably the best for making decisions on your bus. Final question is this, Is it safe for my Family? Pat | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I do not think anyone here is switching 125 volts DC so why bring it up? Once you get over the 12/24 volt range and up to 50 volts and above, UL states the big problem is extinguishing the arc created when the contacts separate. This is irregardless of whether it is a switch or circuit breaker or relay or contactor. Since many of my machines operated at 240 volts DC or 575 volts DC, then I had a serious problem trying to find any electrical device that I could switch the voltage on or off. Even high voltage DC circuit breakers are very difficult to find and very expensive, But I see no need of bringing these higher voltage devices up on this forum. Richard | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Uhh... Where did you say I should put my tongue to test for AC or DC? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
"Where" Depends on whether its 30 or 50 amp service Ahh.. Then add the question of inductive or resistive loads being switched. In my pinball tech days we used .01mfd ceramic disc caps across the contacts to reduce "bounce-N-Arc" but that was all low current stuff.... | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
And actually, if you're switching inductive loads, the proper way to handle the spikes generated is with a reverse diode connected across the coil of the device. This goes for motors, solenoids, relays, etc.... even jake actuators. The diode creates a safe path for the electricity generated by the collapsing magnetic field to go when the device is switched off, and in doing so it also removes any possibility of switch contacts arcing or damage happening to other electronic devices hooked to the same power. I once actually got my stupid little brother to stick his tongue across a 45 volt battery!! 9 is about the reaslitic limit, but 9 or under your tongue makes a heck of a good battery tester! Well, he's not so stupid afterall I guess.. he got pretty darned rich and famous and I didn't..!! http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/players/profile?playerId=403 | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
All of you so called experts can blow your own horns as much as you like, and give forth with your personal opinions, BUT...The National Electrical Code Article 551.10(F) says: "SWITCHES" Switches shall have a DC rating not less than the connected load. Call your insurance carrier and tell them you have wired your bus-conversion with AC rated switches and learn how fast FedEx can deliver your policy cancellation notice. You should be aware that in case of a loss due to intentional negligence, they have the option of non-payment. Article 551 has been specifically written to cover recreational vehicles and recreational vehicle parks. Underwriter's Laboratories may decline to rate low voltage DC devices, (be aware that rating and usage are two different animals) but the NFPA, the NEC, and Factory Mutual feel strongly enough about the hazards involved to consequently regulate their usage. Have a nice day...JJ | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
YAWN. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"Rated switches on DC and UNRATED boat wire on AC?? " The wiring in Boat Cable is UL approved for that damp, sometimes wet and usually vibrating marine enviroment. The "best" Anchor is approved for vessel use for 3 or 4 worldwide codes. Cole-Hersey DC switches are both rated and listed for DC use. The RVIA is the only "code" in the world that will alow single stranded wire in a vehicle. And the only folks that aprove a single strand to be bent and held with a screw terminal on a vehicle.. Fine, in my land house that doesn't move much , cept in Hurricanes, but on a moving vehicle? Maybe RVIA way ,but surely not mine, FAST FRED | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
Rating: N/A |
I would NOT be inclined to use something that definately does not meet expectations of "the code" like NEC. While I agree that the AC rated switch on a low current load will probably not fail, that word probably is not good enough for me. I can't believe a professional electrical engineer would advocate the use of items not rated for the subject use. While everyone has their right to an opinion, this one can get very wormy very fast. Marine cable is rated for a specific purpose. I could see using it in an RV (given the correct application) and I think it would be defensible in court, but using something clearly NOT rated for the intended purpose could cause a problem (IMHO). Why ask for a problem when there is a simple solution? By the way - of you are running DC from he front to the back and back (or vs versa) You may want to think of using a relay - either a stepper, a latcher, or just a relay inbetween the source and the load to redice current drop from all the wire. The cost is about off-set by the savings in wire size. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
A few points to ponder. Snip” The wiring in Boat Cable is UL approved for that damp, sometimes wet and usually vibrating marine enviroment.” UL does not APPROVE anything. They LIST an item for suitability, safety wise, in a specific application and/or environment. Any marine devices or cable that is listed by UL has been tested and listed to industrial application specifications, not marine. There are no marine specifications as far as UL or ETL or CSA or other industrial listing agencies are concerned. Once a device is installed in a boat, it falls under US Coast Guard, Lloyds of London or other marine listing agencies. Snip” Cole-Hersey DC switches are both rated and listed for DC use.” I can find nothing that indicates these switches are UL listed. Snip “"SWITCHES" Switches shall have a DC rating not less than the connected load.” Who assigns this rating? Not UL, not NFPA, not NEC. Maybe something the manufacturer does, but that does not mean doodly squat. There is no provision in any document, that I am aware of, that requires any device operating below 48 volts DC to be listed by an authorized agency such as UL. Quite truthfully, I am sick and tired of hearing about the “marine” equipment being such high caliber equipment. The listing procedure that I had to go thru to get my equipment listed for marine application was significantly less than it was for industrial application. Richard | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
*SNIP* *Quite truthfully, I am sick and tired of hearing about the “marine” equipment being such high caliber equipment* I guess Prevost owners aren't the only snobs, Hey? Niles (sorry I couldn't resist - even after having counted to ten) | ||
| T. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A |
Doug look at the voltage and you will look at this in a different prospective, the house switch is 120 volt the DC switch Is 12 volt that makes 108 volts less than the switch is built for, not only that but I have used the house switch In my conversion for 19 + years and never a problem. but If you want to go by the coad then that's your progitive. Tony | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Niles how bout' a SIP? Snobs in Pogs! Ace | ||
| Rob King Rating: N/A |
I have read with interest all the comments. I had no expectation, when I ask the question, to see all the strife and bickering that the answers demonstrated but had hoped for a simple answer. I thought I knew the answer but as Pat so ably pointed out it is all about safety when family is involved and I wanted that safety for me and my family. BTW, I did search the archives but didn't find this exact question so went to the board. When individuals have strong ideas/feelings it creates an environment for strong words as noted above. And thats one of those things we busnuts have in common, strong individual feelings about what is the right way to do a conversion. That is why we do the conversion ourselves, we don't want someone else to do something for us that we can do ourselves "and probably better". Unfortunately, in some of the cases above "right way" means "my way is it". I doubt that is always the case. So for all who answered, thanks and for those who answered and then got into heated debates, sorry, that wasn't my intention. Hopefully, friendships survived and we all learned a little more. I know I did. And just for the record, even though I own a Prevost, I am neither a snob or a pog. I am a busnut doing a conversion because I want to, because it's a challenge, because it's more affordable, because it's made the way I want and on and on, just like you. So hopefully, we can move beyond where we are now into the realm of sharing ideas, information, guidance and encouragement to each other. Rob 91 LeMirage Missouri | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Rob, thanks for the comments. Yup it amazes me too, how a simple thing can get so out of hand. I guess in the world there are the "dooers" and the "bee-ers"... there are the folks that just get stuff done and there are the buearucrats that have to set everything to codes and laws, supposedly to keep stupid people from hurting themselves, and most of these guys have never even touched what they are cakkeling about... there are true professionals and there are armchair professionals, and there's definitely more opinions than you can shake a stick at. That's what this board is all about. I find it sad that some people find it necessary to diss the true professionals who hang around here, touting the codes that they've read and the laws that they know about as gospel. But they do, and again that's what this board is about... .....sharing opinions..... With regard to the topic at hand, as always it's up to you the "doo-er" to read, grokk, and make your own decisions about what is safe or not, and what is practical or not. I, for one certainly won't be offended if you buy DC switches, nor will I be offended if I'm labelled as a "so called". The guys here who know their stuff definitely know their stuff. The guys who don't are pretty obvious about it, and it's easy to filter out who's who. That's what makes it so fun to hang around here!!! So I hope you figure out your switching system, and whatever you choose to do I'm sure it will be safe and work fine. Enjoy your bus conversion... it's one of the funnest things I've ever done!!! Cheers! | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Hey Rob, glad to see another satisfied Prevost owner and very glad to hear you say openly that your not a snob OR a pog! I already knew you weren't a snob from your posting and NOW I know your not a pog! Here's to ya for that one! Ace | ||
| motorcoach1 Rating: N/A |
make's me want to go to radio shack and ask the clerck whats a good switch. | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
Rob, you will find that many times your original request gets buried beneath the mass of irrelevant information from ignorant (not stupid, just unknowledgeable), but oftimes well-meaning individuals. Laws and Codes are not to protect me from myself, but to protect me from the well meaning, and often penurious idiots that populate this world. I served a 4 year, 8,000 hour apprentiship and then spent the next 35 years at the electrical trade, and as an Inspector with a Florida Master's License I've seen them all. Good,bad , and indifferent. Use common sense and the laws that guarantee a safe, quality installation, that you can be proud of, and sleep well with assurance at night, knowing you won't wake up dead. The RVIAA Codes are occasionally mentioned here, but remember that they have absolutely nothing to do with what we as convertors are building. I have converted two buses from scratch, and re-built three others, and have yet to use any of their methods. I have been a regular on this 'Board for over 5 years, and regularly see the same few threads generate loads of interest, and I hope you don't get discouraged about the dearth of irrelevant info that surfaced on this one. I think you will find that the most acrimonious responses are from the least knowledgeable individuals, who use bluster and rhetoric in place of an empirical base. If we only learn one thing fron a discourse this long it is worth all of the harangue. Stay with us, as we need new blood to keep things interesting, otherwise we all get tired of bitchin' at each other, about the same old stuff and then |@n's wonderful 'Board would die for lack of respondents. Good Luck, and don't quit...JJ | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
Motorcoach1, I tried that and he said probably hickory, about 3 feet long and 1/4 inch in diameter. ...JJ | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"Rob, you will find that many times your original request gets buried beneath the mass of irrelevant information from ignorant (not stupid, just unknowledgeable), but oftimes well-meaning individuals. " ---- "All of you so called experts can blow your own horns as much as you like, and give forth with your personal opinions, BUT...The National Electrical Code Article 551.10(F) says:" ---- Let's see what the NEC really says: "The specific requirements for low-voltage systems in Recreational Vehicles has been deleted Part II Low-Voltage Systems comprising 551.10(A) through (H) is deleted. The primary standard for the construction of Recreational Vehicles is NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles. The 2002 edition of this standard at 4.4 states that low-voltage installations, systems, and equipment shall comply with ANSI/RVIA 12V, Low-Voltage Systems in Conversion and Recreational Vehicles, and no longer references Part II of Article 551. " (From *Here*) | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
John, you continually amaze me. How do you have time to find some of the things you do? This has now gotten beyond my capabilities. Do you know what it really means? Do you know what was in the section that was deleted? I suspect this either was or will be incorporated in the next revision of the NEC which I believe is revised every three years. It has been so long since I was on one of these committees that I do not recall the next step, or when these revisions are incorporated. Perhaps you may be able to further educate us. Thanks for all your help. Richard | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Richard - That took all of about 18 seconds to find, using our favorite search engine (Gooogle). And the point was, Rich... is there is nothing cut into stone regarding the methods that can be used for wiring or plumbing. The "codes" change periodically, and can be wrong. I'm sure you can remember as well as I do, when aluminum wire was included in the "code" for home wiring. I refused to use it. I said it many times before, and I'll continue to: It's better to teach what the intent of the "code" is, than simply scream that people they have got to follow it. Without the understanding of the reasons behind the code; following it blindly, lowers the intellect level to -0-. I realize that some here manage to think that's a great thing, but I don't. I'd much prefer to see individuals think things out and understand why they're doing what they're doing, than simply following some "code" or "law". The section deleted is now covered by the ANSI/RVIA codes.... And... exactly the way the RV manufacturers wished they could have it. Odd, isn't it? Oh, so very odd... Bureaucratically cash-cow odd. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Amen, Amen, and AMEN !!! | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
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I guess it's time to buy a new NEC Manual,huh? ...JJ | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I find it utterly humorous, to read from (unknown): "The RVIAA Codes are occasionally mentioned here, but remember that they have absolutely nothing to do with what we as convertors are building. I have converted two buses from scratch, and re-built three others, and have yet to use any of their methods. " And find that the NEC had decided to turn over the "control" of the "legal issues" of the "proper wiring habits", to the very source that manages to elude the proper habits: the RVIA(a). Kinda' like having the wolf watch over the henhouse... | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Humble pie, JJ.... Hard to digest, but the taste will bring good memories! Cheers, man! Good health, is all that matters. | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
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<snip> look at the voltage and you will look at this in a different prospective, the house switch is 120 volt the DC switch Is 12 volt that makes 108 volts less than the switch is built for, --------------------------------- Tony - the number of volts is not the issue - the type of current is! AC and DC behave differently in switching. <snip> not only that but I have used the house switch In my conversion for 19 + years and never a problem. ---------------------------------- And I am happy you have never had a problem. Misuse of any device does not guarantee a failure - only that the item may not work properly in some situation or maybe any situation. It all depends. There are so many possibilities. ----------------------------------- <snip> but If you want to go by the coad then that's your progitive. --------------------------------------------- And I will - I just don't want you to make an ash out of yourself (old firefighter saying). It's all about risk. One may want to take the risk, another may not. I suspect we disagree on the risk level. Peace, brother. Happy Trails Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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snip "Tony - the number of volts is not the issue - the type of current is! AC and DC behave differently in switching". Doug, I have to disagree with you. The volts is the real issue. That is why UL does not require listing on devices below 50 Volts DC. Amperage (current) is not mentioned. DC below about 50 volts will not sustain an arc in free air when a set of contacts is opened, even if it is breaking 1000 amps. Above 50 volts DC special contacts, arc chutes and other devices are implemented to break the arc of DC voltage contacts. Richard | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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Listen to Richard guys, and quit arguing about this SILLY issue. He's right you know, and he IS one of the old pros here.... Those of you who don't have a clue are being SO OBVIOUS.... | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
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Whatever! I'm just not going to waste time on this any more. Some just want to argue. Please read what is written before you argue with someone. |