| Author | Message | ||
| Mark & Michele (Busnut_pd4106)
Rating: N/A |
If possible we would rather avoid propane all together, we are not comfortable working with it. As I learn more about the electrical side of coach conversion; I now wonder if we could power our cook top and hot water heater using the inverter in the link below. As usual we welcome all comments and advices. http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/aims_3000_240V.html | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Asking this question suggests that you haven't searched the archives using "240V" or an equivalent. If you're not comfortable "working" with propane, many local propane suppliers have installers that could do a professional job. If you're "nervous" about using propane, that's different. Are you asking about Powering those appliances from a battery bank? (I now exaggerate!) If so, I guess you don't plan on putting the conversion on the road! You'll probably leave ruts from the weight carrying enough batts. One energy efficient approach to "propane-less" cooking are induction heating units, ala Sean Welch. Check that category on searh as well. But check the archives, you need more info that you'll get from the (relatively) short thread this will generate (in contract to the extensive and exhaustive discussions in the archives over the years). Thought you were "done" with school, didn't you! LOL!! Actually, it's fun! | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
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I started with the same feelings exactly. I did keep a 240volt option and wiring, mostly for the clothes dryer. I am convinced you cannot dry clothes on 120v. My original cooktop was being altered with two 120v elements and 2 240v elements, allowing some flexibility. I don't think the 240v option is that far off, what the heck, when you want to cook or dry clothes, just start the genset, isn't that what it was put there for! When plugged into a powerpole in a park to a 50amp plug, you got all the 240v you need there without a genset. I later went with a propane cooktop, 120v water heater, and propane heat. The people that are just trying to copy dads old Winnebago will scoff at your ideas, but in fact it works pretty darned well. You may or may not want to use a 240v inverter. | ||
| Brent Coursey
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We just installed a 20" Avanti Flat Top Stove/Oven in our Eagle, its wired 240V. We plan on being hooked up to shore power when we use it. If I was boon-docking a lot, I would buy a nice BBQ grill and cook on it...outside. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Mark & Michelle, Yes, you certainly "could" cook and heat water with an inverter if you're willing to cut back a lot on your likely wishes. On shore power it's no big deal at all. For example... A cheepo "single burner" cooktop such as you get from wal mart for $11 draws between 1000 and 1200 watts on 120 volts. That means 8 to 10 amps AC, which corresponds to 80 to 100 amps being drawn from your battery bank. That is only one smallish burner. How long does it take to cook a steak? say 15 minutes, then there are other dinner items too, meaning you'll either have to have more burners or do things one by one. So you decide on two burners... now you're eating 160 to 200 amps from your battery bank. A set of 6 T105 golf cart batteries will give you 12 volts at 200 amps for about an hour, then they're dead. They weigh about 375 pounds and take up a space of about 2x4 feet x 12" height. So if you're lucky and careful you "may" be able to cook a reasonable meal for two before the batteries croak. If you're trying to heat your 5 gallon hot water tank with electricity, it will take more like 2000 watts for half an hour, again your battery bank will be almost dead and you won't get many showers out of it... doubtful there will be enough energy left after cooking to clean the dishes... All of this and more can be accomplished with only a few cups of propane... in the same space that a bank of batteries occupies that will power a marginal dinner, you can put in a propane thak that will carry your cooking needs, generating needs, air conditioning needs, water heating needs, and refrigerator for well over a week. Now do you see why we use propane? If you are uncomfortable with the creation of a safe propane system, ask the folks on this board or even your local RV shop how to do it safely. Of course on this board you'll encounter a myriad of opinions and some misinformation, but mostly if you listen to the old timers and ignore the dum dums, you'll get decent information. It's very easy to create a very safe propane system, you just have to follow common sense and make sure you use the right materials 'n fittings, etc, and think the system out. There is very little danger to be had from simple-to-create and properly done propane systems. Got more questions? Just ask!!!! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Initially, I felt the same way, regarding the use of propane. I soon learned, that the cost of making everything totally electric, far surpassed any sensible budget. Sure, they'll tell you that the initial cost of the appliances is lower; they are, it's a fact! And they'll tell you about the high cost of propane; also a fact. What they fail to tell you, is the maintenance issues of batteries, and the high cost of replacing batteries and their associated electronics... and the high cost of inverters... and the fact that not all campgrounds can supply you with the amount of power you'll need to run your total electric home on wheels.. Making breakfast on that 220 cooktop at 7am, won't go over too well either. Not at that 30 amp campground you were forced to stay at... at least not when you fire up 'ol Genny to do eggs.. There are pros and cons with everything, but propane is the choice of the multi-million buck conversions, I'm making it mine as well. There's not much to be afraid of. It's being used in every commercially built RV, from the "Scotty" to the Prevo. Oh..and as Marc said... You're going to need a lot of room for that massive battery bank. That's a little hard to find, on an '06! | ||
| ron and patti (Hayleyscomet)
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On our boat I have used an alcohol/110v electric two burner cooktop for years. It works great. It's an Origo 4300. It comes with a black glass top that looks good too. It is not the old fashioned pressurized type. It just has a canister that you refill from the top and has a wick type top. We've put the same one in our bus. Patti. | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
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I have an all electric coach, and I boon dock a lot. While I'm still in the process of building, it, its partially done and I'm very happy with how everything is working out. I have a great convection microwave, and have purchased but not installed a 120 volt cook top. My hot water heater is dual heat, electric and a heat exchanger for a hydronic system. I have not yet completed the webasto type heating system, so I have to use electric to heat the hot water, one of the big hogs of electricity use. When I drive to where I'm going, I heat the water up via the bus alternator charging the house batteries, which powers my inverter. Its an 11 gal heater so I can use a lot of water and still have hot water left over. When I go to take a shower, I just turn on the generator for 1/2 hour, and its hot. I don't need to run the generator for the microwave. So far (no air conditioning requirements this time of year) all I need is that 1/2 hour of gen time each day and I'm fine. I also have a TV, DVD player, 16 cu ft electric refrigerator (24v Danfoss compressor)and lights. The 1/2 hour of gen time a day seems to be enough so far to keep me going. If not, I can easily run it another hour or two, its reasonably quiet. I have a 235 gal diesel tank in the bus, so I have lots of flexibility to run the generator and the hydronic system when I finish it. I also plan on putting 700 watts of solar on the roof, so between that and the diesel fired webasto system, I will likely only have to run the genset when running air conditioners while I'm boon docking. As an aside, I have 6, 4D batteries, and may add 2 more if I need them, but so far so good. I generally only get down to 70% charge before I recharge, so I have no current plans to add additional batteries. To recap, I have an all electric system that is very efficient, easy and convenient to use, and fulfills all my power requirements while boondocking. I will also carry a barbecue, and will rarely use the stovetop (I had a propane cooktop in my 5th wheel, and almost never used it). With an electric coffeepot not much else is needed. I will use the cooktop to make omelettes, but I don't envision it changing my power needs. | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
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Patti - neat sounding solution. Is there any odor when burning the denatured alcohol? How about when the stove is unused, does it smell like a doctor's office? Thanks, Craig - MC7 Oregon | ||
| KC Jack Rating: N/A |
Wow, the Origo 4300 does look like an interesting option. I have an all electric coach too. I have a 15KW generator wired for both 110 & 220. Power goes through two SW4024s before getting to the distribution panel. I can pull 110 or 220 from the distribution panel. I have not wired a stove top yet but I will not be using 220 from batteries alone. Another source for 220 is a step up transformer. Trace has one but I am sure it could be done for less money. Jack IN KC | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Well, since nobody has jumped in to answer the inverter question, I will tackle it: The specific inverter you mentioned is 240-volts ONLY. That means that, to get 120 volts for your other appliances, you will need to install a second, 120-volt inverter, or you will need to install a transformer someplace to generate the proper voltage. The transformer will take some of your precious battery energy and turn it into waste heat, even when you aren't using any power. Also, this inverter is a 3000-watt unit. That's only 12.5 amps continuous, and I think you will find most 240-volt cooktops require more power than this will all burners running. If you are really decided on going all-electric, as Mark suggests, you might consider induction. This is a much more energy-effecient electric technology, and it is widely available in 120 volts. Unfortunately, the less-expensive units are table-top only, not built-in. We have one of the Sunpentown units, and are very happy with it (although we also have two LPG burners as well). You will need ferrous cookware to use an induction cooktop. Just remember to do your math carefully. There are numerous battery-sizing tools, calculators, and spreadsheets floating around the 'net -- grab one and use it if you are uncomfortable doing it by hand. Underestimating the actual usage, in watt-hours, of your appliances is a common mistake, as well as is overestimating the usable capacity of the batteries under real-world conditions. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.US | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Oops... Sorry, Marc, for misspelling your name... | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Sean, I consider it a compliment that you even reference my point and referral to you! | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Does anybody have any good reasons from various reliable sources as to why Mark and Michele, or anyone else for that matter, should be uncomfortable with propane? I see a lot of propaganda posted about the dangers of propane, but I honestly believe that many more fires are caused by electrical problems than by propane problems. I can use myself as a prime example since I lost my coach due to an electrical problem, and my primary background skills are in electrical. Richard | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I'm going with propane, but can understand the fear of fire, or carbon monoxide.. Any appliance can fail, but the failure of an electrical appliance usually trips a fuse or breaker. When a gas appliance fails, it can be by a burner breaking apart, a gas fitting vibrating apart, or the failure of a rubber seal... All of which may not be noticed easily, or not until the vapors are noticed, or the flames are seen. The local Massachusetts RV shop replaced a rusted through burner on a Propane fridge on a fairly new RV. They showed me what was happening before they repaired it.. quite a learning experience... when the burner fired up, the flames went out of the rusted fire box, instead of up the chimney. The AC wires that were above the service opening were burned through. The RV came in with the complaint of "doesn't work on AC and poor cooling on gas" (or something to that effect)... So yeah, I can understand the fears of gas appliances..... But.. I've personally had the terminal on an 8D burn totally through due to it being loose... I'm amazed the battery didn't explode.. And there are plenty of battery horror stories out there, eh? Everything has it's dangers, and everyone has their own fear. It's just a matter of personal choice, and what one is willing to do, to make things as safe as possible.. | ||
| Mark & Michele (Busnut_pd4106)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond. Our plumbing skills are limited and that is the primary reason why we both decided it would be wiser to go all electric. But after reading the threads here I am beginning to rethink this. Since we have already purchased the cook top because it was on sale, we are going to go ahead and cook while running the generator, which doesn’t appear to be a bad option at least until we get to the camp site where we can hook up to shore power. You guys have taught us so much. We have no experience with 240 volts except when we connected a new stove a few weeks ago. Please suggest any good books (or links) that would explain basic electricity and 240volts wiring, especially on a bus conversion. This would be helpful. Thanks again for letting us pick your brains. | ||
| ron and patti (Hayleyscomet)
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I have never noticed any smell when cooking with the origo alcohol stove. And there is no smell at all when it is unused. There is also a cover that goes over the wick part when you are not using it so the alcohol doesn't evaporate. It doesn't cook as fast as propane, but when on holidays, who cares!!! Patti | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
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I went all electric through no well reasoned logic. It seemed simpler in some ways to only have one fuel, the early on I purchase a bunch of stuff, the generator, the 4k inverter etc and just had momentum to keep going electric. I am putting all my tanks, utilties and generator in one bay, leaving two full bays open for toys, so space was a minor consideration. I had already committed to the large battery bank, so having spent the space for that.... Now is a great time for you to consider all the possibilities, how you will be using the coach etc so you can make the best choice for your conversion. While I am happy with what I have, every choice you make has tradeoffs. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Interesting writeup on 240/120 volt wiring. Go to home page for more interesting things. I really do not know who did all this but he did a good job, I think. Richard http://users3.ev1.net/%7Ecrossstitch/ | ||
| Cory Dane Rating: N/A |
I have been using propane in motorhomes since the late 80's. It is awsome for cooking and hot water, for the refrigerator and the furnace. If you ever worked on your water plumbing (you will in your bus) there is little difference with propane. The board will guide you through any questions. there have been many reason mentioned why Total electric can be a problem. I always carry a 120vac stove top or two, but have never used it. I tend to use the microwave much more than I ever thought I would. The Stove is used now and then but not that often. The boating industry has some great propane connections and hoses so most of the work is already done. There are propane detectors (mount near the floor) in case of a spurrious leak and CO2 detectors (mount near ceiling) for lack of Oxygen and presence of gases created by flame. I have never had either one go off. But then I have never had a smoke detector go off either, Knock on wood >*<>*<>*<. As the commercials say, propane is clean, safe and efficient and the choice of an awful lot of motorhome owners. Think out the pluses and minuses and I think you will go the propane route, ESPECIALLY if you plan to boone dock. Only way to go. Good luck cd | ||
| Tim Jones (Torquester)
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" Does anybody have any good reasons from various reliable sources as to why Mark and Michele, or anyone else for that matter, should be uncomfortable with propane? " Hi Richard, My reasons for total electric: Not because I am uncomfortable with it.... No holes cut in the sides of my coach for waterheater (if I were to use a standard RV type water heater). No holes cut in the side of my coach for fridge intake (if I were to use a propane fridge). No holes cut in my roof for a fridge vent (if I were to use a propane fridge). No holes cut in my bay floors to vent my propane compartment. Only 1 fuel type to fill and moniter the levels of. No holes cut in the side of my coach for standard RV furnaces (if that is what I chose to use). And no noise on the interior from those noisey bastards. Again...not afraid, just my way. Tq | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "No holes cut in the sides of my coach / No holes cut in my bay floors" Not arguing here, but....How in the world are you venting the battery bank, and the genset? (the propane fridge can be vented through the upper side wall, instead of the roof, btw... and propane heaters can go in the bays and vent out the side of the coach.) | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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Heck what's wrong with a few small holes in the side of your bus? You've gotta have a real big one for people !  | ||
| Mark & Michele (Busnut_pd4106)
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Thanks Richard for the link, very helpful. I would like to share this link I stumbled on: http://www.timberman.com/ELECTRIC/electric.htm | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Man, if you are afraid to cut any holes in the bus, why not just leave it as a bus? A cot, an ice box and a porti-potty and away you go. LOL Richard | ||
| Tim Jones (Torquester)
Rating: N/A |
Wow, I figured I'd get slammed on this one. I was right. I'll try to address your comments. John MC9, Your posting of my quotes took them out of context. I said: "No holes cut in the sides of my coach for waterheater (if I were to use a standard RV type water heater). No holes cut in the side of my coach for fridge intake (if I were to use a propane fridge). No holes cut in the side of my coach for standard RV furnaces (if that is what I chose to use). No holes cut in my bay floors to vent my propane compartment. " I did not say: "No holes cut in the sides of my coach / No holes cut in my bay floors" I just wanted to clarify that first before answering your questions. You asked: "How in the world are you venting the battery bank, and the genset? " AGM batteries, no venting required (4, 8D's). The genset is an Onan 10KW Quiet Diesel. The intake and exhaust openings are on the bottom. The generator is installed in a boxed in section of a bay with holes in the floor. "(the propane fridge can be vented through the upper side wall, instead of the roof, btw... and propane heaters can go in the bays and vent out the side of the coach.)" True, the fridge vent could be vented through the side wall instead of the roof. But did you notice that I was also trying to avoid cutting holes in the sides? It is also true that the heaters could go in the bays. This would help with the noise factor but still requires side venting (more holes). Oh, btw, don't you think that I know about all of this stuff? My bus is close to complete and I have been using it for years. Ask anybody here who has seen it, it's beautiful and very functional. Richard, "Man, if you are afraid to cut any holes in the bus, why not just leave it as a bus? A cot, an ice box and a porti-potty and away you go." That is what we did when we first got it. It was fun but we refined it over the years. :-) Not afraid to cut holes, we have plenty, just want to keep them to a minimum. Please see the last sentence of my first post in this thread; "Again...not afraid, just my way." I'm not trying to be an ass here guys and I sure hope that I am not comming off as one. I just really like the lines of our Eagle, and prefer not to chop them up if I don't have to. |