| Author |
Message |
captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:36 pm: | |
I have been using a ventless propane heater for my old bus with great results even in wisconsin cold. I kept my bus warm and went 3 weeks on a tank of lp compared to my forced air furnace that burned a tank in as little as 3 days. only down fall was water it produced I plan on using 2 of them with dehumidifiers. For when I'm on the road I am using the drivers side heat duct to heat the front of the bus. the passenger side heat duct I am building an aluminum box and running a duct back to the bed room that will end under my vanity and blow out the front for bath area and out the end for bed room. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:47 pm: | |
Ron -
With all the hot water from the engine being pumped to the
front anyway, wouldn't it be easier to use all that hot wah-wah
and install a standard school bus type water heated hot air
heater? The blower will damn near run you out of the bus.
Even standard convection type radiators can do a great job! |
captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:00 am: | |
I have a brand new one but plan on using it in the bay where my water storage is and eventualy get a wabesto. Whats wrong with using the bus heat that is existing in the bus as I plan ? |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:07 am: | |
Not a thing. 'cept you have to have the bus running.
With the hot water setup, you can use a webasto, or a
hot water heater, to heat the bus.
Just an option... an opinion..
You'll do well, no matter what you do. You've already
proven that, ma'man! |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:56 am: | |
Ron, PLEASE install a CO detector! (or two or three...)
Ventless heaters are potential killers in non-well ventilated areas |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:41 am: | |
The need for proper ventilation with those "ventless" heaters
has been underscored on every thread that mentions using
one inside a closed bus. The fact that -every- manufacturer
of those devices states in their literature, that they are -not-
to be used inside small areas; that they -are- to be used only
with proper ventilation, seems to elude the users of these heaters.
The buzzers on the CO, CO2, or propane detectors are loud,
but they aren't loud enough to wake the dead. |
john david lebrun (Davidlebrun)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:09 am: | |
Ron;
Did you check the calculation for heat volume given in the heater installation book.
I have two warm glo's for my unit, and they gave me a equation to check the total volume of the space your heating time 20 is the BTU/hr that can be supported without a vent.
I worked the numbers twice once with both heaters runner and entire bus, and with the hall door closed to check the bathroom, bedroom volume.
My 4106 checked OK, but we still open a window a crack, and have a co detector.
david |
captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 10:56 am: | |
I will and have always used co and smoke detector.
probably will never use both at same time (heater) and will use extreme caution in making sure I have proper air supply.
now how about my use of the bus heat as I've planned. good? bad? or indifferent? |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:12 am: | |
Ok, I'll rant a bit.
Some notes about why CO is so deadly:
Carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin with an affinity of something like 240 times stronger than Oxygen
The half-life of CO in your body when breathing normal room air is approximately 320 minutes. This is what makes it so deadly- if you take even one good breath of the stuff, you're dead because you can't get it back out of your system and it stops your blood's ability to bring oxygen to your organs.
Even if you were to breathe pure oxygen at that point,you're still toast. The half-life of CO even at Hyperbaric pressure of 3 atmospheres of 100% Oxygen only drops the half-life to 23 minutes- basically there's no way to get the stuff out of your body in time to stay alive.
This ugly fact was demonstrated by the parents of a friend a couple years back... they were in a new home they'd built up in Northern California, and the first snows had fallen. Their home was nice and insulated, and reasonably sealed. Their wood-burning stove was running, and because the house was as sealed as it was, it put a tiny vacuum in the whole place.
The power went out. So the guy (my friend's father)went into the garage and hooked up his 3kw generator, opened the big garage door about half way, and ran a cable from the genset into the laundry room where the breakers were.
So far so good. What everyone figures from here is that something attracted him back to the garage a bit later. He opened the door, took one breath and was dead. They found him on his face about three steps into the garage. The laundry room door now being left open allowed the CO cloud to drift into the house toward the woodburner where the wife and dogs were watching TV, and within seconds her and all their pets were also dead.
She never even got up.
Just like that... didn't see it coming and when he (they) did it was already way too late.
So every time I hear "I've been using ventless heaters in my RV and never had a problem", I shudder.
Ventless heater DO make CO no matter what anyone says. Usually not much but how do you know how much "not much" is?
The bitch is, even with a CO detector, quite often by the time you figure out somethig's wrong, it's way too late...
"My 4106 checked OK, but we still open a window a crack, and have a co detector."
...SCARY.... |
motorcoach1
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:16 am: | |
you think a 2 million dollar air scrubber from the space shuddel is out of the question .....hehehehe |
jimmci9 #2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
an idea for the aluminum ductwork would be to use 4", 6" or 8" aluminum irragation pipe.... if you need to clear an obstruction, you can flatten it some...like an oval.. still has the same area of volume, no matter what shape its in.... my holiday rambler mh uses cloth covered flexible dryer vents for the airways.... |
Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:51 pm: | |
I don't understand how a forced air furnace could use 5 times as much propane as a ventless heater.
A ventless heater is close to 100% efficient as no heat is vented outside. A forced air furnace would have to be 20 to 25% efficient to only last 1/5 as long on the same amount of propane. I would guess a RV type forced air type furnace as being 70% efficient.
I personally wouldn't use a ventless heater no matter how many CO alarms I had. They used a big one during construction of my house and it smelled pretty bad when it was running.
I'm just giving my opinion. You can do whatever you want as far as heating goes.
Brian Elfert |
captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 7:41 pm: | |
on the issue of the bus heat I am only making an aluminum box at the vent in the floor then using insulated flexible heat duct the rest of the way.
as for the ventless heater I've used one with the only complaint is water it produces. Who knows by the time I get that far I may change my mind completely. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:27 pm: | |
IIRC, The original suburban propane furnaces were about 46% efficient, which is why I promoted the Quatro heater at 86%, but two things have happened since, Suburban reportedly made a quantum leap in efficiency and I glammed onto two ProHeat's, which is my current choice.
Gave the Quatro to a friend, who now heats his shop with it.
Onward and Upward |
coolbus
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:07 pm: | |
Jimmci9,
Alum ductwork, when ovalized, actually does significantly lose cross sectional area (volume). To illustrate, continue ovalizing the pipe more and more, until it is flat!
Brian Elfert,
A typical vent free heater uses between 3,000 to 9,000 btu's of LP. A forced air furnace uses 24,000 to 40,000 btu's or so.
Propane has approx 93,500 btu's per gallon. If you do the math, you will see a variable of 31 hours of run time @ 3000 btu's (vent free, on low) and 2 1/3 hours run time(40,000 btu furnace)...13 times the amount of propane!
Quite a significant difference, and with the vent free being 99% effecient (no heat loss out the vent (chimney)) there can be a noticeable savings of fuel.
And, as has been stated, proper ventilation is mandatory. Doesn't take much, if I recall correctly, open a window 1/2 inch @ one end of the room, and a roof vent 1/2 inch also. This will take care of the Co2 as well as the moisture buildup.
My opinions,
Mark 'coolbus' |
Jason Whitaker (Jeepme)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 12:38 pm: | |
Ron, my bus heat was set up that way when I got it. Worked fine for running down the road. It was ducted with the 4" flexible duct you can get at Camping World.
I understand the fear of CO but if these heaters were killing people right and left I would think the manufacturers would be sued and out of business long ago. Hasn't anyone told Ralph Nader? ;)
The only info on ventless heaters I could fine in a reasonable time on the web: http://tinyurl.com/bd66j
Jason Whitaker
4104 |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 1:03 pm: | |
Re:
"....if these heaters were killing people right and left ....."
Maybe they're not, because most owners/users read the
instructions well, and ensure they have plenty of ventilation
as the manufacturers demand they have?
The small models are nice for foot warmers; the larger ones,
for directed heat. They are designed to be used as supplemental
and temporary heat, not as the main source for heat.
The problems begin, when users try to go beyond the
manufacturer's intent. And as far as I've read, they are not
to be used in small areas without proper ventilation, or for
any excessive amount of time.
The last thing I'd do, is go to sleep with one on. I've gotten
real used to waking up... |
Doug G
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 11:01 pm: | |
I know some friends who died in a camper-van due to a vent-less heater. On the other hand I'm using one right now. (with a window cracked open) How about cutting a vent hole of proper diameter near the heater to supply the air? |
joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:53 am: | |
I have an info sheet here on my desk from a local firm that builds catalytic heaters primarily for the oil patch. in it they say that no CO is produced, butwhen the catalytic reaction occurs it is the propane or natural gas that reacts with oxygen to produce water vapour, carbon dioxide and infrared energy. Ventilation MUST be provided to allow an adequite supply of oxygen for the reaction. Is it possible that those people died from a lack of oxygen, rather than from carbon monoxide poisoning?
Joe. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 1:07 am: | |
Probably, Joe. And there's no (inexpensive) commercial
detectors for low Oxygen.
If the manufacturer's directions are adhered to, there shouldn't
be a problem. If a user decides to heat his entire bus with it
without proper ventilation, all bets are off. |
Dale Fleener (Dale_mc8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:30 pm: | |
Joe, IIRC, CO poisoning IS lack of oxygen. Blood absorbs CO much more readily then it does oxygen and then has no room for oxygen.
FYI
Dale MC8 |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 6:10 am: | |
"If you do the math, you will see a variable of 31 hours of run time @ 3000 btu's (vent free, on low) and 2 1/3 hours run time(40,000 btu furnace)...13 times the amount of propane!"
EXCEPT of course the furnace has a thermostat , and if only 3000 btu were required it would be off 90%+ of the time.
The ONLY difference is the flue efficency , so for an extra 20% (with NO flue) , you get to breath the combustion byproducts and perhaps die of CO poisoning.
Sure wouldn't be my first choice,or second choice or...
FAST FRED |