| Author | Message | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A |
I really hate to report this and it doesn't really apply to conversions, but those in the bunch who come from the industry might be interested. I've seen this in the news for a few months now but haven't brought it up before because it's a downer. MCI was ordered to pay $17.5 million in damages to 19 injured passengers and family members of the deceased for a bus crash in 2003. Jurors declared that the bus was unreasonably dangerous because it lacked safety belts. "Because what we have here is a corporate defendant in front of a trial judge and jury that is being found guilty of negligence for something that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has repeated multiple times it would provide little, if any, safety benefit," Mr. Littler said. Whether or not the verdict stands, it has stunned the American bus industry, which has relied on federal regulations to defeat previous lawsuits that focused on the absence of seat belts. I read the story here, but it's a registration site and you can surely find it somewhere else for those interested: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/021306dnprobussuit.7e3da cf.html | ||
| david anderson (Davidanderson)
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It should be overturned. However, it will cost MCI $$$$ to haul it through the appellate court. I don't have an answer for our "shakedown" civil justice system other than we adopt a loser pays all type similar to Europe. We are light years from that type of system. David Anderson (living in some of the best tort venue shopping real estate in the USA, south Texas.) | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
It's a civil suit. It doesn't matter what the legal issues are. In the criminal charge, OJ was declared not guilty of murder, but in a civil suit, that jury decided he was responsible for the murders and ordered him to pay. Buses are not required to provide passenger seat belts; no criminal charges were filed. But the civil court jury found that MCI was responsible for the deaths and injuries - for not providing seat belts. Maybe MCI oughta' get a better lawyer.. But hey.... what jury is going to side with a big corporate pocket vs any family? The passengers suffered damages and losses, and MCI should have had the good graces to do what they could to help the families in whatever way they could. They didn't, so the families sued. And now the ramifications will be to all other bus companies. It'd be so much easier on everyone, if responsible parties took the responsible action, rather than try to save the almighty buck. </another_rant> | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
This is the story: A Temple church group chartered a bus from Central Texas Trails Inc. on Valentine's Day 2003 to attend a Christian music concert in Dallas. It was raining when charter-bus driver Johnny Cummings approached an Interstate 35 traffic jam too fast, lost control of his tour bus, crossed a median, swerved into oncoming traffic, and collided with an SUV, killing five of his passengers. Cummings and the charter company declared bankruptcy, so 19 injured bus passengers and survivors sued Motor Coach Industries, the bus manufacturer, for its failure to include three-point seatbelts on its 1996-manufactured bus. The bus met federal safety standards, NHTSA has found that seatbelts on tour buses do not “enhance overall occupant protection,” and no tour buses sold in the US have seatbelts, but a McLennan County jury awarded $17.5 million anyway. Judge Jim Meyer allowed Houston attorney Thomas Brown to argue that a jury vote for the plaintiffs was a vote for the cause of safety. A second trial with a second set of plaintiffs from the bus accident remains to be scheduled. (Matt Joyce, "Jury awards bus crash victims $17.5 million", Waco Tribune-Herald, Nov. 4). If that bus company took the responsible action and did what it could for those it injured, the case wouldn't have gone any further. Instead, they claimed bankruptcy, refusing to pay a thing. With nowhere else to turn for medical payments and funerals, their attorney took the battle to MCI. I don't blame the system or lawyers, I blame those that don't take responsibility for their actions. (just another opinion) | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Well I see different angles since my father owns a bus company and we be outragous insurance premiums for it (because of stuff like this), I agree that the company involved should've stood up to their responsability (but they probably were either under insured or not legally & properly insured), but the US Motorcoach Building Industry has long studied seat belt use (which would tremendously raise the cost because the floors, walls and seats all would have to be made stronger and heavier to withstand the G-Force regulations already in place) and the National Highway Transportation Safety Association has proven over and over Motorcoaches are "THE SAFEST FORM OF TRAVEL" as figured per #people & # of miles verses # of injurys per year! The NHTSA also has proven seat belts would not improve the overall safety of Motorcoach Travel! Now having first hand experince with Motorcoach travelers IF THEY HAD SEAT BELTS, imagine tring to get everybody to buckle up! Next they'll get sued because the seat belts don't fasten themselves and stop the coach if someone removes one while the driver is concentrating on the road! It is said that some judge & jury decided to rule against MCI as this is only the tip of things to come from this situation and I dread to see how it's going to effect our industry! Just my 2 cents worth and I probably owe some change back! LOL Bryce aka Busted Knuckle | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "It is -sad- that some judge & jury decided to rule against MCI as this is only the tip of things to come from this situation " Exactly! It wasn't MCI's fault that the driver was going too fast for conditions, but I wish they would have spent the few mil to settle out of court and avoid this mess.... But that didn't happen, and we may end up seeing seatbelts in commercial buses. Now... who's going to enforce this "law"? Who is going to make sure every passenger "buckles up"? More importantly.... When are Americans going to wake up and see that George Orwell's prophesy is here and now? (gotta' love these threads, ehh?) | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Exactly what I mean John! I can see it now we're going to have to hire a police officer from every county we go thru to get on the bus and write tickets to anyone not buckled up! Then it'll backfire on us for "tring to be safe" and they'll write the driver 1 for each passenger they write too! It's crazy that MCI should've been sued in the first place ! Ah well I'll shut up for I really stri some stinky up! Have a great day! And don't forget to buckle up before going to sleep in yer coach in case a drunk driver hits it and they write ya a ticket "er not having been buckled up while being involved in an accident" LOL! Bryce aka Busted Knuckle | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
Let me see if I understand this. MCI built a bus that complied with all applicable laws and standards. The lack of seat belts did not contribute to the accident which was caused by driver error. But it is up to MCI to "do the right thing"? Do I have it right? What if it was an Eagle? What if it was a Flexible? What if it had seat belts and the passengers did not use them? Should the federal govenment accept the responsibility for failing to draft legislation requiring seat belts and additional legislation to require their use? What if this was a conversion and one of the passengers was killed? Can the estate of the passenger sue the driver who may have done the conversion and strip that driver of 100% of his assets because it is the right thing? | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
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It seems to be that, in the case of a bus, seat belts don't really contribute towards safety. Bus manufacturers comply with current safety laws and regulations. This suit seems to be for the gain of money. Perhaps there needs to be a legislation change in terms of liability insurance for drivers and charter companies. Sure, it'll cost companies more and the cost will be passed on to consumers. Maybe the amount of insurance needs to be tied to the number of passengers the bus is rated to handle. If there was a manufacturing defect at issue, then MCI would be at fault. In this case, the responsibility lies with the driver and his/her company. The New American Way - accept NO personal responsibility and pass the blame whenever possible (even if it belongs to you). Having a hard time doing this, then get an attorney. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"Let me see if I understand this. MCI built a bus that complied with all applicable laws and standards. The lack of seat belts did not contribute to the accident which was caused by driver error. But it is up to MCI to "do the right thing"? Do I have it right? " Yeah, kinda' right.. The victims of that crash were seeking payment for their medical bills at the very least. The charter company decided to take the easy way out, and claim bankruptcy. With no-where else to turn to, the injured party's attorney attempted to seek relief from the manufacturer of the bus. While I totally agree, that MCI had no dog in this fight, their puppy was forcibly tossed into the ring anyway. Had MCI bit the bullet, and issued a statement to the press that - although their bus conformed to every safety requirement, and was not the cause of the accident or injuries, they will financially help the families as a good will gesture - they could have settled this out of court, and avoided this calamity of possible seat belt legislation for commercial buses. The PR would have had them looking noble in a philanthropist stance. There have been cries for seat belts in buses since I drove for a living (way back when). With enough public outcry, vote hungry politicians will attempt to pass more laws to further stifle free enterprise. In the end, no lives will be safer,but we'll all be poorer with the added taxation needed to fulfill the new, added bureaucracy and policing of things that are not necessary. The "right thing" may not always make legal sense, but what has MCI gained by not taking that step? And what is it going to cost every bus company, now? | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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OK, I'll bite (even though I should know better) If MCI 'did the right thing', they would have set a precedent that would require them to assume all medical bills and such for past & future accidents. The problem is the lottery mentality that goes after the deep pockets. The lack of a moral compass in the court room encourages this behaviour. You can't legislate morality. We need more morality & responsibility, not more legislation. Fat chance of that happening since it is the lawyers getting rich off of these lawsuits AND it is lawyers making the laws. The deck is being stacked against decent, moral, working folks. As bad as it may be, it is still the best system & the best country to live in. And I will continue to vote & write letters to politicians even if they seem to fall on deaf ears. Ahhh, the American dream..... kyle4501 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Kyle - "OK, I'll bite (even though I should know better) " HAR! It's addictive, man. Gotta' post, gotta' postgotta'postgottapostpostpost. I just got through with our own web site, and saw that BNO was winking at me.. Egads.. We have doctors appointments coming up.. I'll never get outta' here.. No "precedent" can be set when something is done voluntarily. Philanthropy provides rewards in subtle ways.. Especially so, if it's not looked for by some pseudo-philanthropist.. There's just times, that it's a whole world better to do something because it oughta' be done, and not because some action demands you do it. The victims needed some sort of financial assistance, so they hired a lawyer to seek it out in whatever way possible. He did. It's unfortunate that he had to. I blame the charter company, from start to the finale'. MCI got caught up in it. If it was an Eagle, the suit might have been against the tire company, or the State, or the Feds... Does it matter? In my opinion, it mattered more to MCI and every bus operator in business, to avoid at any cost, anything that might lead to seat belt legislation. Sure, it's a form of blackmail; legalized extortion at it's best. And the way it can be made to work for the ones being extorted, is for them to act quickly and make it appear as an act of philanthropy. Good PR, the victims are happy, and no courtroom precedents are set. Legally, MCI did the right thing. But for all practical purposes, financial and otherwise, with ramifications to every passenger carrying company, they couldn't have made a worse choice. Yup. my opinion, & only that. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
John, I think you are a kind and caring person, but I think our positions on this are 180 degrees apart. If your logic is followed, then if MCI went bankrupt then the company that made the engine or rolled the steel, or made the tires would have to do the right thing. That of course is unrealistic. Sometimes in life stuff happens that is going to leave some people damaged. They get hit by lightning, they are exposed to unexpected flooding, or they happen to work in a building that gets hit by hijacked planes. While all of these victims and their families suffer greatly I cannot believe life comes with a warranty. Sometimes we are on the wrong end of the stick. Is an injury or death in a bus accident compensible no matter what the circumstances? How about shooting deaths? How about making General Motors responsible for all car deaths when a Chevy is involved? There is a very fine line that was crossed when MCI was held liable for those deaths and injuries. Pretty soon all deaths will be compensible regardless of cause and the party that will pay is society. Life is a terminal disease. | ||
| jlvickers Rating: N/A |
The Wako's in Waco,TX have done again they have just let a 2000 lbs gorilla out of it's cage. Now it's going to cost the bus folks more bucks. When the bus companys have to put seat belts in the buses they will have to hire a seat belt observer to ride on each trip to make sure each passenger has his or her seat belt on. Sad but true the leagle system at it's worst has come around to haunt us. jlv | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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John, I think you have missed a very crucial link in the responsibility chain, & it ts with the Temple church group that chartered the bus. That group should have verified that the charter company had proper credentials, including insurance. RE : 'No "precedent" can be set when something is done voluntarily.' That ain't necessarily so. I worked for a company that was their custom to give every employee a weeks pay as a Christmas bonus. It was not written down anywhere in the explaination of benefits. Times got lean & instead of layoffs, they eliminated the bonus. Some idiot employees sued. Judge & jury said 'since you have done it in the past, you must continue'. The company had to shut down immediately due to lack of funds to meet payroll. Bottom line in my opinion is that the Temple Church group was irresponsible in their selection process & the victims were greedy & found a greedy lawyer to find them a deep pocket to pay for a free lunch. They have succeeded in creating more victims as we will all have to pay. $#!T HAPPENS, get used to dealing with it & you will live a happier & more rewarding life. kyle4501 | ||
| Dick Bell (Richardkan)
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I'm waiting for someone to get on their soapbox regarding SCHOOL buses. My state has been kickin around the idea of havin them on the schoolies. Downside: Tremendous cost and burden to all taxpayers. Upside: May prevent kids from gettin seriously hurt in an accident. Don't stop there!! How about ALL forms of public transportation. Get on the transit, buckle your seatbelt or get off. Where does it end? | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
The legal system worked well for many many years until a preponderance of liberal judges were appointed by liberal politicians - arising out of an attitude fostered by a predominantly liberal public school system. A conservative's just reward for failing to responsibly participate in a Representative Republic! When did you last exercise your privilege by taking the opportunity to vote or otherwise express your opinion in a proactive mode? | ||
| Henry 96A3 (Hank)
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Yeah, that's right...it's all them *&#^%# liberals WHATEVER (what an idiotic statement). Anyways, it would be interesting to see some statistics about the number of bus passengers killed in bus accidents as a result of not wearing seatbelts. This crash happened in our area in Oct 2005. http://www.channel3000.com/news/5108140/detail.html As tragic as it was it's a miracle that more people weren't killed. The people that were killed were sitting in the front of the bus and I doubt seatbelts would've helped much (the front of the bus was completely gone). It is still baffling to me that MCI is held accountable. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Lets see, Hmmmm... All Buses get seatbelts, transits, schoolies, Monorail Trams, City, State and County Buses. Subways, Trains, Airport Shuttle Trams. Require electrical interlocks to prevent vehicle from moving of seatbelt is not locked. Arm drivers with machine guns to enforce the rules. Add 3 additional "Seat Belt Guards (armed)" for each vehicle. to assure compliance... Let's see, That's just about everything. Now "enforce" all transit/transportation agencies to install all that equipment. Looks like Class Action Suit time.... U.S. Public at Large ~vs~ Texas...  | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
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I did some research on this subject back in 1998 to express my views in a dissertation to a local town council for a minor variance to a friend's property which he was expanding for his bus business: "The National Tour Association and the International Association of Convention and Visitors Bureaus reports that there were 624,626 tours operated in Canada and the U.S. in 1996, an increase of 6.6% over 1995. The bus tour industry creates 194,149 full-time jobs and $4.9 billion in wages and salaries. In 1995, 9.9 million people worked in transportation related jobs - about 7% of the total civilian labour force. The bus tour industry generates $973.9 million in government revenues. Transportation accounted for 7% of the Gross Domestic Product in 1995. In Canada, $2.1 billion was expended by bus tour operators and the average traveler spent $75.48 per day on a one day tour and $156.76 per day on a multi day tour. Bus passenger fatalities account for only 0.005% of the annual 34,000 highway fatalities on our roads each year." Thought you'd like to know. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Kyle - "I worked for a company that was their custom to give every employee a weeks pay as a Christmas bonus." The company made it a custom in doing that every year, and by doing so, they set a precedent. Jon - "I think you are a kind and caring person, but.... " Naww... I'm no woosie. No kind and caring here... What I'm trying to say... MCI could have handed over a modest amount to the victims, as a good will gesture. Absolutely no admission of guilt in any way shape or form. Did you ever hear of the Ronald McDonald house for kids? Well, there's hundreds of other major corporations that also make a habit of helping others in need. See: Corporate Philanthropy By taking the tough stance and allowing a court case to be made, they've cost themselves, and every other bus manufacturer, operator and dealer, big money and major headaches. No jury is going to deny the injured "lil' guy" his day in court, or his fight against BIG CORPORATIONS. They usually find for the "lil' guy". MCI attorneys would have been wiser to keep it out of court at any cost. They didn't, and now the 17.5 million may be a mere drop in the bucket, considering the mess that will very likely follow. My reasoning regarding the "right thing to do", goes just a bit beyond that "feel good" thing you're suggesting. It's simply the right thing to do, to avoid the mess they now have. (Ahh... thanks for thinking of me in such a nice manner, but I'm really not all that nice) Henry - "The people that were killed were sitting in the front of the bus and I doubt seatbelts would've helped much (the front of the bus was completely gone). " One thing I noted when I drove buses for a living, was the fact there was nothing to protect the driver, or the first two rows of passengers. There just isn't any serious protection from the front bumper to the first heater/ac bay. A header will cause serious injuries. I always told my passengers, if they saw me run down the isle, it's gonna' be a dooozie. Dave! "Looks like Class Action Suit time.... U.S. Public at Large ~vs~ Texas... " HAR!! Let's do it! It coulda' been any state. Injured people look for some relief anyplace they can get it. That article didn't say if that charter outfit had insurance or not. If not, how did they manage to get the buses registered? It would seem to me, that the suit should have been against the state, for not policing their own regulations. Oh well.... we're done now. The wife wants a seat belt. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Ian - I'm sure the government would like to spend a few billion $$$$ on seat belt legislation in order to "reduce the slaughter of innocent travelers by 20%" - in other words bring it from 0.005% to 0.004% - and then claim a victory by reducing the horrendous level of fatalities (by a sum of 34 - or over $50 mil per person) - makes great headlines for politicos - but right after that they'd want airbags too - airbags are a great invention, as they allow you survive the accident, thereby enabling you to immediately file suit and get in line for your jackpot - its better than the lottery, and pays off at a much higher rate - Niles (Rant - you made me do it) | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
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YEAH! Like I said there goes the neighborhood! Well I agree that the charter bus company and it's driver were AT FAULT & if they had insurance, it would've had to pay up regardless whether they filed bankrupcy or not! I think that the JUDGE & the bankrupcy court that ruled in favor of their bankrupcy, knowing it was simply to avoid financial responsability for their actions in this tragedy should be held accountable! I also think that the state should press criminal charges against the driver and company owners for their neglete to cover financal responsability! But no MCI & the whole bus industry (even hobbiest like most of ya'll) are gonna pay for it in many ways! We just renewed our company insurance today! And guess what? Oh yeah, it's going up! We have had a perfect safety record (YEAH I KNOW I"M KNOCKING ON MY HARD HEAD only solid wood close!). And no other reasons why it should go up noticably, but it is! It's up about 7% which adds up when yer talking about $1000 per month per bus! They said that hurricane Katrina had caused a lot of claims! Yeah I imagine most of those were from the bus that burned! Opps! That was Rita! Well see like I said at the top! Theres goes the whole d*** neighborhood! Any body wanna sue me "'cause I posted on this site?" After all it should be responsable for somebodys actions right? LOL! Hey just kiddin' put the phone down don't call that lawyer! Have a great night! Bryce aka Busted Knuckle | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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My last post on this thread (yeah, right), John, you & I will forever disagree on this. Your logic, while eloquent, is flawed on so many different levels in my opinion. (since we both have opinions, do they cancel each other out?) If MCI helped just a few accident cases, that would set the precedent. By the way, just who should decide who gets help & who does not? Why don't you set the example for doing the right thing by these poor unfortunate victims of this bus crash and give them some of your own money. After all you have just as much in this wreck as MCI. I'll tell you why, there ain't enough to go around to help everyone that you think deserves it. If you reward negative behaviour, you will get more negative behaviour. Why did they declare bankruptcy if they had adequate insurance???? I have been in court before as a witness for the plaintif. The judge manipulated what the jury heard so that there was only one conclusion, nevermind the facts. After serving as a juror several times, I have decided that in a court room, perception is the ONLY thing that matters. Truth, justice, right & wrong are left out. Since laws are written with criminals in mind, court room perception often favors the criminal element. How is this any different than paying the school yard bully? Now if MCI wanted to contribute to an assistance program, that is different. What about the lawsuits that would arise because the victims could not get out fast enough due to the mandated seat belts being in the way? I choose to sit towards the rear of charter buses simply because the front suffers the most damage in most wrecks. If I don't get my clutch linkage fixed, I won't have to worry about this in mine. kyle4501 | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
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Niles, Airbag = politician. Birds of a feather... ;-) Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Darn I screwed up my math again - should be "a sum of .34 - or over $5 billion per person" Who can I sue over this? | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
John, OK, you are no woosie. But you ducked a question that goes to the heart of this issue. What if the bus was an Eagle? Your logic (if it can be called that) is jumping around so much that I can't tie it together. What has Ronald McDonald go to do with a lawsuit? Don't answer that until you answer my question about what if the bus was an Eagle. | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach)
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Hi Folks: I don't usually feed into controversial topics, but as this thread goes on, I can not bite my tongue any longer, as the teeth marks in it are beginning to hurt!!! The fact of the matter, in my opinion, is in USA, the Tort System is severely broken!!! If you don't believe it, open your Yellow Page Phone Book. Count the number of pages listed under "Lawyers" and count the number of pages listed as "Physicians". Now, in Camden County, N.J. where I live and work there are 69 pages of lawyers and 44 pages of physicians!!! Now with this aging Society that we live in, can any rational Human Being tell me why we need more lawyers than Doctors???? Better yet, look at the full page attorney ads if you live in a metropolitan area and they ask questions like "Have you been hurt in a transportation accident"???? or "No fee unless we collect"!!!! Folks, it is the new lottery except that you do not have to buy a ticket. A few years ago in N.J., as a result of a law suit, a bar was found to be negligent because a patron drank too much, was involved in an accident with personal injuries. The court (JURY!!!!) decided the the "Bar Tender" was negligent in that he served too much liquor to an individual who then went out (Impaired) and caused or was involved in an accident. The fact of the matter is, as told to my by a judge many years ago is: "The Constitution guarantees that you are only responsible for your own actions", which is what I believed when I appeared before him and this is 15 years ago. The story: I had a bus leased to a customer who got a bunch of tickets and did pay them. It was a written "Dry Lease", whereas we supplied the bus and he was responsible after that!!! On a Sunday morning, local Police arrived at my front door with a warrant for my arrest, as my company owned the buses and tickets were not paid. I went to the police station, was finger printed, and was released. The above was the result in court. For 11 years I operated a bus company along with our repair and parts and equipment sales company(and NO!! this is not an Ad)!!!! October 2001 was the renewal for my bus company insurance. Knowing that the bus insurance market was very tight, per our trade publications, I advised my insurance agent of 11 years that I was going to shop the policy. She told me, "PLEASE DO", because I think you will have problem this year!!!! Guess What!!!! I had to shut it down, as 3 companies refused to even quote on it and a 4th said they might be able to get us into the N.J. Assigned Risk program at $36,000. per bus, per year plus "Open Ended" surcharges. WHY: As a result of a few accidents, the insurance companies set up huge reserves for potential future law suits(not knowing whether there will be suits or that they will have to pay). They are called "LOSS RUNS". So a nice little bus company that had five day a week contracts operated with 3 buses went down the drain!!! Sad but TRUE!!!! Two weeks ago I was called for Jury Duty here in Camden County and was picked for an accident case. After I was picked, the judge asked if any of us felt we could not be impartial. I raised my hand, was called to the bench with both lawyers, and was asked by the judge why I thought I might not be able to impartial. I asked the judge if this was an insurance case and told him of the above. He told me it was not an insurance situation and I told him that I could then be impartial. A long story short, one of the lawyers through me out.!!!! I am here to tell you folks that I could sit here at this computer tonight until tomorrow and tell you first hand stories of legal situations I have seen during my 43 years working in the bus industry (None of them would involve the business that I have owned and operated for the last 26 years.)(For the last 26 years, I don't have and have not needed a corporate lawyer) and I am knocking on Wood as I type this). How do we fix this Tort System in the USA (IN MY OPINION)???? Stop electing Lawyers as our legislators who go to our State Capitals or D.C. and build their Dynasties. We should push for Term Limits, Election Finance Reform and so on. Here in N.J. we have a new governor who used his own money to be elected!!! He comes from Wall Street and is a Democrat, and that does not matter to me. But I hope he can use his business experience to make a difference for N.J. tax payers!!! How do we do that, by getting involved!!!! And by the way I am registered independent (not that you asked), as I can think for myself!!!! How do we fix it???: Get involved, go to local council meetings, write to legislators, and as someone so aptly wrote earlier VOTE!!! If we don't VOTE, then you have nothing to complain about!!!! Just today Justice Scalia of the Supreme Court of the USA spoke before a group in Puerto Rico and let it "All Hang Out". In essence, as I read it said: THE constitution of the USA is written in Stone, is the basis for this American Society and should not be changed because "Times have Changed"!!! If Law is Changed to make it Right for Today in any given situation, then the system is definately broken!!!! If you don't believe it, then look at how the Muslim World views this country!!!! And, in my opinion, they are not totally wrong!!!! Think about where we are at with regard to Tort in the USA and in this Global ecomomy of which we are a part of, then let's get going and "Make a Difference"!!! Get involved!!!! If we don't, we will find ourselves at peril, in my opinion. I am "UP", This country will "PREVAIL", but only if we get invovled, and changing the legal system (TORT REFORM) is just he Tip of the Ice Burg, in my opinion!!! Thanks for listening!!! Happy & SAFE!! Bussin' to ALL. LUKE at US COACH | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Luke provides the perfect example of what this verdict will foretell (or already has) - He is a long time responsible business operator forced out of businees by the resulting consequences of these outrageous verdicts (and he's right - the judge didn't mete out the verdict, it was the US, THE JURY) - what will replace the 3 buses he pulled from service but a new operator who cannot compete responsibly and will be FORCED to skirt the law and his/her moral obligation to provide adequate maintenance and insurance necessary to protect the public - Not a good thing for the traveling public - Niles (last rant on this topic) | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
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AMEN LUKE I know where yer com'n from and I agree it's time to "overhaul" our government and return it to a "GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!" Also I sympathize with ya on yer insurance issue and ours cost more than $1000 per month we just laid down a sizable chunk today as a "downpayment" to keep it affordable for the remainder of the year! Although it's not near $36,000 per year per bus! It's still to darn high! Have Great Day!!! Bryc aka Busted Knuckle | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Jon - Yeah, I haven't been totally lucid in awhile... but... I did answer your "what if" question... That claim for payment of damages would have gone to anyone or anything that could possibly have brought forth some financial relief. That was my point, Jon. There isn't simply a court action, there are formal letters and communication between the parties. When negotiation is deemed impossible, the next step is to get the court involved. That's why I believe it would have been in the best interests of MCI (as part of the entire bus industry), to attempt to do some PR work, and help those people out as a goodwill gesture. If MCI sent their PR men and attorneys .... had a meeting with the people and their attorney... And explained the legal aspects of the lack of seatbelts... and how MCI isn't responsible... And - at -that- point, explain how MCI is willing to dig deep into the corporation funds set aside for it's own workers for such a crisis situation... and with the union and employees permission to do so, they would like to make a major contribution to the people that have suffered such terrible losses. MCI would pay all medical and funeral bills, and donate funds directly into the accounts of those that have suffered financial loses due to this accident, from the charter company's negligence. MCI's business after all, is people; the safe travel of people. And... adding that MCI will attempt to enlist the aid of all the manufacturers...both tires and bus parts, and other bus companies, to help right what has been made wrong, by the bus company they hired. So? Is that the right action to take? Would MCI have had to pay out 17.5 mil? Would there be an aggravated public demanding seat belts? Would we be here arguing the price of rice in Argentina? Instead of saying "the right thing to do", I should have said "the correct path to take". In my opinion, MCI took the wrong path. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Luke - "As a result of a few accidents, the insurance companies set up huge reserves for potential future law suits(not knowing whether there will be suits or that they will have to pay). They are called "LOSS RUNS". " It isn't "frivolous lawsuits" that drive the cost of insurance up, Luke. And it isn't the general public, or "trial attorneys" that are the cause of court cases, large settlements, and legal hassles. It's the insurance industry's practice of withholding pay outs and the settling of cases, and the forcing of claims to trial. The insurance company makes it's cash by investing every buck of the insured premium. The longer they hold that cash in their account, the more money they make. They could care less, if a home isn't repaired on time, it's only the bottom dollar they are concerned with. They force injured parties to file suits, even when they are perfectly willing to settle out of court. It's a stall tactic. When I drove for InterCounty Motor Coach, they had Markel insurance. (The older drivers here will remember that insurance company). Markel rode behind the driver for miles upon miles, and reported speed, turn signals and every nuance of highway and traffic behavior. Intercounty had the lowest premium of any company on the eastern seaboard. It took a diligent effort to control driver safety. They made it a practice to remove a charter driver from charter work, and place him on local line runs when his miles/hours exceeded a certain amount. It managed to keep the danger zone to a minimum. It changed "the odds" of having an accident, dramatically. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"All Buses get seatbelts, transits, schoolies, Monorail Trams, City, State and County Buses. Subways, Trains, Airport Shuttle Trams." HMMM, To be "equal" , Helmets as are forced on Motorcycle riders to destroy their pereferial vision and ruin the ability to hear an approaching vehicle should also be "Mandated" (to save lives) on all the above forms of transportation. Other wose "Some of the Pigs would be More Equal than others" G. Orwell 1984. AS a Navy pilot we always wore helmits , yet in 20,000+ hours of commercial avating I never had even one Pax get aboard with a helmet, UNFAIR!! The gov should "re,educate the proles! Off to the Camps! FAST FRED | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
John, I guess you are saying that anybody involved in anything that causes them a loss or injury is entitled to be made whole. Further, if I am interpreting your feelings correctly, you have determined the injured parties, their lawyers or courts can keep going backwards until they hit a set of deep pockets from which they can extract money. I truly hope you represent the only person on earth with that opinion because if not we are in trouble. I also hope God has built up some cash reserves because all the folks dying from bee stings, lightning and natural causes are somehow going to need compensation. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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Jon W, It is a sad, sad fact that John is not the only one that feels this way. The jurrors also feel that way, hence the ludicrous judgements. Far to many people expend tremendous effort to avoid thinking for themselves. They would rather believe what someone said than think about it for themselves to see if it makes sense & come to their own conclusion. Heaven forbid they actually look up the facts to determine who to believe & who is lying. kyle4501 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Pretty narrow, Jon. Either I'm not getting it into type correctly, or you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to get into type.... Either way, it doesn't really matter. We all have a right to our opinions... I personally would have tried to settle the issue out of court rather than gamble and lose, as MCI has. To fight for "principle", when losing may cost so much to so many, is not my idea of a smart thing to do. It would have cost MCI a small fraction of money, provided them with great PR, and avoided the escalation of this "seat belt in buses" debacle... Buy hey... Some love to fight for "principle", regardless of it's cost.... and regardless who else may be injured in their fight. Do you really think that explaining to those individuals seeking reimbursement for their injuries and family deaths, that seat belts wouldn't have helped? Do you really think they'd have understood perfectly, and aborted their quest? Do you really think that any jury would side with the big corporation, and disregard the lives lost, the injuries suffered, after hearing that "seat belts" could have saved those from death and injuries? I sympathize with Bryce, and all those trying to operate a charter bus operation. More stupid legislation will add to the already overburdoned industry. It could have been avoided by a little out-of-court negotiating. That's it. I'm done. I've wasted too much of I@n's bandwidth already. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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E-Gads Guys.... The precedent should never have been allowed to go that far. MCI should have defended themselves and reject all responsibility. No other automotive manufacturer has final responsibility for what is done with their products once it's out of their immediate control/possession. Only the FED's can make that direct determination if a defect is reported and found to be something to force a recall. They should have asked for a mistrial and countered any claims totally. The essence is that if: A soldier is driving a HumVee that hits a land mine, The mine explodes and destroys the humvee. Is it the fault of the manufacturer ( GM ) that the driver was killed? If you follow what MCI let happen is right, Then every person ever killed in a wreck in any vehicle ever built can sue the manufacturer for damages. An NTSB report should have shown the actual cause of the accident as being the repsponsibility of the driver and liability assigned to the transportation company and their insurance. Now the problem is back to a judge and jury who were duped and suckered into redirecting the ire of the ambulance chasers towards MCI... It's time for (legal) Tar and Feathers for the lawyers and everyone involved in this farce... Don't get me wrong. I am not defending MCI or any other manufacturer. I am defending the right to see logic and sensibility which was not used here! | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Here's a glimpse of something... http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/products_liability/2006/01/somebodys_got_s.html Interesting..Somebody Lied? Naw..... | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
David - Congrats on the find!! As usual, there's more to a story than first printed. (Not that it really changes much - this is a civil suit; going before a jury is a 100% gamble.) "During that trial, MCI attempted to join the bus company and driver as defendants in an effort to allocate some of the liability to them. " Why would a corporate atty do that? That's essentially accepting the claim against MCI, isn't it? It's like saying: "We did no wrong and would like to have these other guys help pay part of what we owe." | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
John, I am reading and understanding your position and that is what is so terribly troubling. I am having trouble with the fact that you cannot see the long term impact of what you are suggesting. Let me create a rather narrow secenario so perhaps you can understand my fears. Imagine that you create a beautiful motorhome, well designed, and well constructed. Your motorhome was built from the ground up and is not based on any vehicle, so you and you alone are responsible for its design and construction. Because it turned out so well, you want to do another conversion and improve on what you did. So you sell it, and the new owner rear ends a car with a family in it. The new owner is at fault, but it turns out he has no insurance and no assets. So the injured family sues you for 17 Million. Are you suggesting that you would talk to the family and settle without even going to court? Are you suggesting this practice should only apply to large companies? Your position previously stated strongly suggest you favor distribution of wealth, and that somehow it is OK to take from those that have, even if they are not culpible, completely ignoring the fact that what they have is rightfully theirs. | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
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John MC9, I'm curious... do we know that MCI DIDN'T try to settle? I don't find it mentioned. I'm sure we'll never know all the details. | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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Items: MCI is not even close to a 'big corporation', as big corporations go. Ain't *nobody* in Waco, TX 'liberal' - judges, lawyers or juries. It's just next door to Crawford. It didn't help that the venue was held in the same place where the plaintiffs and the jury members all belong to the same churches and bowling leagues... | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Chuck - That's added fodder. ( I hate to go to sleep thinking I typed like an idiot, so let me try again) MCI was not responsible for the accident, or injuries/deaths, nor are/were they responsible for the lack of seat belts. No criminal court would be able to convict on those charges. Civil court is another matter. All that's needed, is to convince the jury that the plaintiff's claims are valid, and the defendant is responsible. -MCI is not legally responsible for the lack of seat belts. -Standees are permitted in both charter and line run buses. -Standees are even permitted in many school bus operations. -Seatbelts are not legally required in any instance. -MCI can not be deemed criminally responsible in this case. But this isn't a criminal action, it's a civil suit. (For an example of criminal vs civil suit: OJ may have been cleared of any criminal charges, but in the civil suit, that jury found him responsible) (not good enough) Going before a jury is a gamble. Going before a jury in a civil suit, is a 100% gamble. Not 60/40, or 50/50, or 90/10. It's a 100% gamble.... -100%- As I said early on, MCI had no dog in this fight. Someone tossed their puppy into the ring. Instead of doing whatever they could to get that damned puppy out as soon as possible, MCI decided to let the puppy fight. Well... the plaintiff's pit bull took a 17.5 mil bite out of that puppy's ass. And that's just for starters. Sometimes, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong. All that matters, is who is going to come out with their shirt still on their back. MCI could have avoided this debacle, by making every attempt to settle up out of court. I.e.: yanking their puppy from the ring. Yeah, I agree it's not fair. But reality has to be observed. There's no way a jury is going to allow a BIG corporation to walk away from a tear-jerker of a trial unscathed. People died due to flying from their seats at point of impact. Telling a jury that "it ain't my problem", just ain't gonna' fly. And it didn't, did it? Gotta' weigh the odds, before you do battle! | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
John, Now what you said is starting to filter in my brain. Based on the post above I think you are saying MCI got screwed and should have attempted to not let the thing get as far as it did. Did I get it right this time? They probably considered that (more precisely their insurance company considered that) but their lawyers considered the absurdity of them having any responsibility and opted to take their chances. Hindsight is 20/20. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Whew. Thanks for being patient, Jon! There are times that I (we all?) do our damnedest to put our thoughts into words.... and it's like the path from my brain to my finger bones get constipated.. Sorry I couldn't get it out better, quicker. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
When it goes to appeal (as it certainly will) a panel of judges will decide the merits of the case based on law. Awards that are based on emotion by a jury get tossed. On another board that I follow someone mentioned that the recent hunting accident in Texas indicated that there is an open season on trial lawyers. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
John, My faith in humanity is restored. Now let's talk about buses and conversions. Yee haw. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Stan - Some are hoping he'll take his buddy Scalia hunting again. Jon - Ya'know... for once we stayed on topic! It's a first! |