| Author | Message | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Rating: N/A |
Good morning all. I'm considering getting a 40' 1981 Grumman/Flxible 870 to convert. 6v92TA, 3 speed automatic, and highway gears. It's fairly cheap, but I've seen several in the sub $5k range so it seems like a reasonable project. I don't have the bus yet, but I probably will by the end of the week. I have lots of questions out to the current owner about miles and condition, and still have to go inspect it myself and then agree to buy it. Is there a known problem checklist for this vehicle and/or this engine? I know about the frame crack problem, so that'll be one of the first things I look for. Some of my questions I'll answer myself (noise issues, and the like), but your opinions are valued, if you have experience with this series of bus. I haven't done a bus conversion before, but I've done everything you can think of for a prerequesite (mechanical on cars, trucks, tractors; cutting and welding; home repair, plumbing, electrical). I'm looking for a bit of advice. I'm considering raising the roof to 8' interior height. I read somewhere (maybe here) that there is a 17" space between the floor and the bottom of the side skin, which I've already found tanks for up to 260 gallons inside 17". I'll probably go a bit smaller. No need to carry a ton of water around. Is this bus going to take a roof raise nicely? I assume the support structure is steel, but there were lots of mentions of aluminum in stuff I've read on it. Should I consider keeping the stock windows, and move them up with the roof, or is that going to be a pain? I like the idea of all the glass, but know it won't be great for insulation. I expect to be anywhere from Alaska to Florida, so heat and cold are considerations. I'd rather have the option of a panoramic view, to a few port holes. I've worked up a tenative floor plan, based in part on the plans I found on here (thanks guys). Are there any strong recommendations to placement? We were thinking of a walk-in closet in the back, between a bedroom and the engine firewall. This was both for lots of storage, and to cut sound in the bedroom. How is sound in the back with the engine and generator running, and driving? I'm thinking of ditching the stock air conditioner and air handler, so I can put a large generator in it's place. I'm thinking two roof mount AC's would be sufficent. Comments? I've been in discussions with folks about electric vs. gas. I was thinking of covering the available roof space with solar panels, and putting batteries underneath the floor. If I go gas for the stove, and heater(s), would it be reasonable to consider solar for power most of the time, charging circuit for a 30A or 50A campground hookup and generator for long nights, northern latitudes, and cloudy days? How many watts are recommended on the generator? I've had both 7.5Kw and 10Kw recommended. Is it reasonable to include an apartment size washer/dryer in the plans? Both myself and my girl like the idea. It'll help us keep things clean, without needing to find a laundry a few times a week. Is it reasonable to put a home dishwasher in? Oddly enough, I have a brand new spare already. Will I run into issues with this bus, if I try to hang cabinets from the roof? Obviously I'll have the interior out, so adding extra framing isn't unreasonable. What are the opinions on here of insulation? Styrofoam wall board looks simpliest, and I don't like spray foam. I've seen too many house doors and windows stop fitting properly from misapplication (overexpansion and bending 2x4's). I saw somewhere a mention of foil backed bubble wrap, and foam backed bubble wrap. How are those, and how available are they? I don't remember seeing either one at Home Depot or Lowes. Are there recommended places in the Los Angeles area to pick up parts cheap? Places to avoid? Thanks for your time. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Rating: N/A |
Hi JW one thing you want to look at is when sitting in the drivers seat look for signs of water leaking in and coming down on the electrical panel to your left. this bus has a habit of leaking there and causing all kinds of electrical problems. Open the electric panel and look to see if the relays have turned white with corrosion. Look at the back of the shift module for signs of corrosion. Another place they leak is around the escape doors in the roof. Check the floors as they are wood. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"I'm considering raising the roof to 8' interior height" Assuming your bus already has more than a 6 foot interior (all do), you'll be raising the roof 2'? That may raise the height of the bus, to what may exceed the allowable vehicle height of areas you may want to travel to/through. Most buses are 11' give or take, and access to some areas can be somewhat limited. You'll be at 13+ foot? (that's without the roof airs) "I've already found tanks for up to 260 gallons inside 17". I'll probably go a bit smaller. " You don't have to fill them to their limit. "I like the idea of all the glass ...... I'd rather have the option of a panoramic view, to a few port holes." Put/leave the windows where you'll actually be looking out of. Windows are nice, but aside from the heat/cold, there is also a matter of privacy and safety. If you don't live in a bubble at home, do you really want to live in one on the road, in unfamiliar places? "I've worked up a tenative floor plan" We used blue removable (painter's) tape, and marked our "plans" on the bus floor. I have to buy more tape, since after moving it a few thousand time, it doesn't stick as well. (get the picture?) The very best thing you can do, is visit as many RV sales yards you can. Take a ruler, a camera, and a notepad. Pay attention to details: drawer slides, cabinet placement, bathroom sizes, pantry options... The commercial RV designers try to put as much into it as possible, and spend very big $$$$ on planning. Use their designs; it's not a sin. "We were thinking of a walk-in closet " With such limited room, why waste it on a "walk-in" anything? How much time are you going to spend in the closet? (leave this one alone, fella's) "cut sound in the bedroom. How is sound in the back with the engine and generator running, and driving? " You want seclusion in an RV from the rest of the RV? (egads). 1 or 2" foam board inside the walls will help, but man... It's an RV Buses are designed for the maximum amount of passenger comfort. That includes quiet.. from engine noise. Adding some insulation over the engine area (inside the bus) can be beneficial. You would be surprised how easy it is to fall asleep listening to a DD 2-stroke... "I'm thinking of ditching the stock air conditioner....I'm thinking two roof mount AC's..." A 6kw genset will power two roof airs with no problem. The bus air is one big maintenance headache. For the cost of a freon recharge, you can buy a new roof air. "an apartment size washer/dryer a home dishwasher solar for power most of the time adding extra framing isn't unreasonable" I don't mean to be rude..... but... You sound like you have enough experience to do al the work, but have you RV'd at all? Some experience of travelling and living in a normal RV would be of great help. There's just -so much- you can expect from any RV! Having a "home on wheels" is a great concept, but you have to keep in mind, that it's not a house. You simply do not have the room for all that you have in a house, and never enough room for all the ancillary things you need to actually use all that you have in a normal house. If I were you, I'd take a few weeks and visit some RV sales yards. But that still won't give you the experience of actually living and travelling in one. I personally feel that travelling and living in an RV should be a prerequisite to building one. | ||
| Randy Steere Rating: N/A |
JW, Raising the roof on an old Flex could be a problem. The way they were put together was in what they called a collector. All 6 sides of the bus were preassembled. The floor was slid into this jig. Followed by the sidewalls, front and rear. The roof and side walls interlock in a "J" lip. Front and rear caps were bolted. All of the interlocking parts were glued and expanding foam was used to set the "J's" so they wont move. The unit would set for about one hour in the colletor and then the fuel tank/rear suspension and the front suspension was bolted onto the body. Remeber the fuel tank is what holds the rear suspension in place and gives the unit its lightweight and integraty. Good luck if you try this roof raise. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
The composite roof and floor structures will drive you crazy since there are very few if any cross braces under the floor and none across the roof at all except for the front box frames on the upper and lower sections. The roof and floor are one-piece sandwiched aluminum sheets with about 2 inches of foam core. If you cut the verticals to raise the roof the bus will ~bow~ and go out of square in about an hour and you won't be able to straighten it out after that. The side skins are extruded panels that are interlocked together on the edges. If you break any of the long ones you risk warping the side and weakening the structure. Inside up on the ceiling are two long runner channels along the aisle. They are expoxy bonded to the aluminum skin. They are structural and reinforce the roof. People have removed them but not easily. I had 3 Flx 870's, One I started to convert and found that it would take 10 times the labor to work around the airplane-style unibody as it took to do my RTS back in 97' .. It is 20 times more difficult than any MCI or GMC The other catch is that many 870's only had a 4:56 ratio rear gear. aka about 62 mph downhill with a 20 mph tailwind. Its expensive to change gears on any V-Drive bus. The other problem is that nobody want's to work on them and bet that your local diesel guy will run for cover or run to the bank at your expense. I love the way the 870's drive and handle as they are much like the RTS buses but the difference between trusting a glued together chassis versus a welded stainless steel chassis (and roof!) make the RTS the way to go on a budget. Or save your money and buy a highway bus with bays and T-drive engine setup. Your local diesel guy will like you much better since most of a T-Drive setup is comparable to trucks. Your selection of engines and transmissions is much greater also... Good Luck.... | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Rating: N/A |
Guys, Thanks for your input. Yes I have spent time in an RV. Unfortunately, it was as a kid with my dad. He bought a few trailers towed behind a van, and a few van based RV's. We traveled the East coast in the early 80's. The biggest things I remember are how miserable the trips were. He drove slow normally, but slower with the trailer attached. I remember being insanely hot, because we'd travel in the summer with the air conditioning off because the RV or van would overheat with the extra load. I distinctly remember the regular swooshing sounds as tractor-trailer rigs would blow past us, pushing our vehicle to the right every time. Space was always an issue, because what we had was never more than about 25' long (camper or trailer) with 4 or 5 people. That's part of my considerations. I want to be sure we have creature comforts. I telecommute for work, so I don't leave the house much as it is. Combining work with the fact it can be anywhere will be nice. I'd like to sit at my desk, and have a view of the grand canyon, NYC on the horizon, a huge field in Kansas, Mt McKenley, or the endless view of the everglades. One of my hobbies is a news site (search my name, you'll probably find it). I could show up to the event of the week, run live video on the site, or interview interesting people. Besides that, I recognize that our government is failing, and we are on the edge of needing to get away from it all at a moment's notice. Already living in an RV being self sufficent (except diesel fuel) would be a very good thing. People are already moving out of this country. I'm not ready to abandon it all quite yet, but I know we'll all be ready for the instinctual fight or flight. I don't believe enough people are ready to fight, and a fight won't be pretty, so we'll need to move to the position of safety. My girlfriend lived through the Northridge earthquake a few years back. I've lived through numerous hurricanes. In either case, being able to live through our own resources would be a good thing. You guys, knowing it or not, have a great start on it. I'd rather be prepared, and can't afford a 1/2 million dollar (or more) rolling house, so I'm preparing the best I can. DrDave, if I'm careful with reinforcing, would it be reasonable to consider that the roof raise could happen? I had thought that leaving the front and back caps in place, and only raising the middle, building new caps and windows in the gaps. Putting extra braces in, and temporary bracing aren't unreasonable. I would have probably done the extra bracing anyways, once I had a good look at the structure, and found it to be the way you say. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"If you don't live in a bubble at home, do you really want to live in one on the road, in unfamiliar places? " For some folks that travel the VIEW is part of the experience. Shades can cancel the view if ever there is a need. FAST FRED stock windows + Screens | ||
| Phil Dumpster2 Rating: N/A |
The Flxible 870/Metro is probably the least desirable coach if you just have to have a roof raise. There are other busses out there that are more amenable to having their height increased in this manner. Think about this, though - do you really need a roof raise on a transit? Most transits already give you over six and a half feet of interior vertical clearance. As for your political views, remember the Y2K critters who started to hawk their dehydrated food on eBay after January 1, 2000? | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Personally I wouldn't even try to raise the roof structure itself. Buuuuttt.. Or another wierd idea I might look at making a large frame cage that could be anchored to the exsiting roof. then cut out the center section and go up to add a new roof to the cage. Then close in the sides to match the sides and ends of the original framework. If you designed the cage-frame correctly you could recess the roof air units inside the framework and still maintain a flat roof design. Check the aired up height of the bus. then add the roof framework to max out at 12'6" which should be safe... Just another crazy idea.. But Neat anyway.... | ||
| Chris 85 RTS
Rating: N/A |
I gotta ask, how tall are you that you need a 8' interior? Sounds to me like the structure of the Flx is not condusive to a roof raise. It might look good in the driveway, then bend or break on an uneven surface, or after a big dip in the road. Could end up with a money pit. I'm converting an RTS, have yet to find anyone too tall to fit in it. | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Rating: N/A |
Phil Dumperster2... > As for your political views, remember the Y2K > critters who started to hawk their dehydrated food > on eBay after January 1, 2000? Ya, I know exactly the type. I'm not a "the sky is falling" type, but I am realistic. I've seen the whole range of nutjobs. At one end of the range was one guy I was talking to a few weeks ago that is absolutely sure the CIA has been harassing him for over 10 years. At the other end of the range is the the shiny happy "everything's ok" oblivious in their own world type. My day to day work is in the IT world. I was working through Y2k. My Y2k preperation was to buy a couple of extra boxes of ammo. My sister had planned to get large water containers, 50 pound bags of rice, and canned foods. She didn't understand how I was relaxed, so I spelled it out to her. A worst case Y2k happens. She has enough food and water to survive for a finite period. People who didn't have the food would use desperate measures to get food. She wasn't well defended (well, except for me), so more than likely someone with more power would take her supplies, leaving her without. Then there was me. I would survive. I had the power. I would be able to negotiate through force to get what I needed. "I will give you protection, and share your supplies." I had no real fear Y2k was going to be the end of it. I was out drinking on Y2k. I was aware there would be problems, but I didn't think they would be anything that couldn't be fixed. Most would be non-fatal problems. In our company, we did have problems. Any machine built in the last few years, when they rebooted after Y2k, would come up as Jan 1, 1997. The BIOS didn't understand the year 00, and belched. That was an easy fix for us, we simply had a program in the startup correct the clock to our internal time server. That had already been in place for hourly checks and corrections, but we had to do it at boot time too. In the end, we spent about an hour fixing things, and I spent the ammo at the shooting range over the next few months. For me, it didn't end up being an extra expense. Gas in the car, bullets for the guns, and a hangover on Jan 1, 2000. I know what the government is doing, through the news. I also know that they know who I am. They read what I write every day. I can't say my phones are tapped, and I have no indication that they are "watching" me. I'm pretty boring. https://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1974 https://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5053 As things are getting worse, personal lifestyles will be more infringed upon. It's all academic, until you find out every phone call you've made since 2001 has been recorded. https://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5732 Who cares about recorded calls, right? Well, what about any embarassing thing you've said. Anything said against the government can lose you your job or freedom. https://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5902 It goes farther than that. Did you mention cheating on your taxes to a friend on the phone? How about something like buying a little bag of pot, or calling your mistress? Did you talk badly about your boss to a friend? There are plenty of things that we say in the privacy of our own homes, on our own private telephones, that could be very embarassing if they were made public. Our country is about to declare war on at least one more country, but quite likely more. We are posturing for Iraq, Mexico, and N. Korea, and being less than friendly to dozens of others. The military does not have enough troops now to accomblish another war, much less maintain the wars we're in now. Laws are now in place where the government can declare martial law for arbitrary reasons. Our government is mad with power, and not behaving in a rational fashion. As population increases, natural resources become more scarce. We'll be looking at Canada, who currently has a very negative opinion on the United States. Canada has huge water reserves. Both Canada and Mexico have huge oil reserves. I'm not running around screaming "The sky is falling!", but I am preparing. For those who are already mobile, you have a distinct advantage. You can climb in your bus and head for somewhere where you can fend for yourself. When the day comes that martial law is declared, you'll have to move fast to remain free. Even that may not be enough, but at least you're trying to remain free. My apologies for posting links to my site, and the political rant. I know it's not exactly on topic here. I'll keep my political rants to a mininum. | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Rating: N/A |
>I gotta ask, how tall are you that you >need a 8' interior? I'm just thinking that it would give the feel of a regular house, plus give room for extra storage in high cabinets. I'll keep thinking on it, and probably decide later that it's not really worth the extra work.  | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
JW - Having worked at a transit property that had over 40 Flxible Metro 870s on the lot, I can share the following: ~ The body shop hated working on them due to their sandwich construction method. ~ The maintenance shop allocated extra time for major work, due to the necessity of installing the special ($$$$$$$$$) jigs required to hold the rear of the coach together when the powertrain was removed. W/O the jigs, the rear splays out, and is extremely difficult to bring back into alignment. ~ The driver's platform literally hangs from the ceiling. If you are over 5'8" tall, you will have a difficult time getting comfortable for long periods behind the wheel. The framework for the seat platform limits the amount of not only front-rear seat travel, but also the reclining mechanism. ~ Because of the rear suspension's design, you will only have the space between the front of the fuel tank and the back of the front axle for underfloor storage. Since the fuel tank's located in the middle of the coach ahead of the rear door, this leaves you with about 4' to work with. There are some nooks and crannies behind the rear door, but not much - that big A-arm for the axle's in the way. ~ That big A-arm does provide a very nice ride, however they roll a lot going around a corner, and no anti-roll or anti-sway bars are available to correct this. Also very hard on leveling valves - this body roll takes it's toll on them and their linkages. ~ The plastic dashboard and surrounds squeak and rattle annoyingly, especially on rough pavement. If you really want a Metro, and want to raise the roof, you might consider what this guy did: http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/135049788.html Since you're looking, see the new thread "Shopping for a shell". HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Phil Dumpster2 Rating: N/A |
Now I know why you need the roof raise - to house that overactive and paranoid imagination. A Flxible 870/Metro is not the bus you want. A conventional school bus would be a far better platform for what you want to do. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Rating: N/A |
David I see in your post that the floor in the flex was aluminum and foam. I have a 1991 here that I am parting out and I was shure the floor was wood. When I saw your post I thought maybe I was wrong so I went out and drilled a hole down through the floor and on this bus you have a rubber mat then plywood then the ground. Are some years different? Tim | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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The foam ones were generally from 1981 through 1988 for the ones I saw. I had an 81,82 & 83 and they were foam-core aluminum. Grumman/Flxible did start changing some designs on some in 1987 and from there I don't know. In some climates I would suspect that there might have been some agencies that didn't want the aluminum floor because of salt corrosion problems. Mine were all southern units. Part of the idiocy or brilliance of bus manufacturers is that who ever orders a group of buses gets to spec out special options that may be completely different under the skin from ones built for someone else, Hence the variations. They just want the contract and will do whatever it takes to make that happen. Neoplan built an east coast factory to build transits for a contract deal and when that deal is over it will vanish if it hasn't already. Look how many times the RTS changed hands, From GMC to TMC to MCI and then to NovaBus and then nowhere. The contracts died off due to competition and atrophy of government agencies willing to replace their fleets. Having Fun Yet? | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Rating: N/A |
That makes sense this bus ran in Columbus Ohio where there is plenty of salt. Well I learned something today not a total loss after all. Thanks David. Tim |