| Author | Message | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
I posted these comments last week over on the other bus board, but thought they might be helpful here, too. These were in response to a question "What bus is the best to convert": The question you should be asking yourself first, BEFORE you ask which shell to buy, is "What am I going to DO with my conversion?" To wit: **Boondock without hookups for a week at a time? **Weekend jaunts to NASCAR races? **KOA to KOA? **Full-time 24/7/365? **Two-week vacation plus a few weekend jaunts? **Boonie-bounce into the backwoods? Once you figure out what you want to DO with your coach, then you have to determine what you're going to need in a shell that will meet your criteria: **How many are you? Some build to seat eight, feed four, and sleep two. Others build "entertainer" type interiors to sleep a large family. What do YOU need? **How much fresh, grey and black water are you going to need? You can't answer this until you know how many you're building for - the more folk, the more H2O. Boondocking = more water, too. **All electric? How big a genset are you going to need to power all that's aboard? Four roof-top A/C units, electric fridge, microwave, waterbed heaters (to keep the tanks from freezing!), blow driers, coffee pots, entertainment systems, it all adds up. **Gonna cook with gas? How much propane are you going to need? Is it going to be used to provide heat also? Size system accordingly. **How much storage are you going to need? This is also partly determined by how many of you are there? The more people, the more storage needed. The more systems on the coach, the more valuable the space available becomes as it gets used up by the various components. This will also lead to determining what length coach (30, 35, 40 or 45 feet) you'll need. Once you've begun to thorougly think thru some of the points I've mentioned, you'll begin to realize that certain buses are better suited to certain types of usage, and that all shells are NOT created equal. For example: ** Boonie-bouncing into the backwoods. If this is what you're interested in, an old dog-nosed skoolie works best - lots of ground clearance, steel springs than cannot be punctured (but can break!), easy engine access, repairable anywhere someone works on a truck (since that's what most are anyway), you get the picture. This type of use is not suitable for the lower ground clearance of highway and transit models. ** Full-timing 24/7/365 is a whole different realm. Here you'll need a coach with lots of both space and storage, water capacity (fresh and grey/black), decent electrics, a nice, quiet, comfortable ride and good service/parts availability. Most highway models, and some transits, fall into this category. Which bus is right for you? Only YOU can answer that, after you think thru what you are going to USE it for. Here are some general guidelines: Skoolie? Best for boonie-bouncin', but hard to break the "Partridge Family" or "hippie-bus" image. Transit? Cheap to buy, most are 102" wide with plenty of headroom. Interior has challenge of larger wheelwells front and rear to work around, taking up valuable space. No basement storage, but the RTS and Gilligs have enough room underneath for fabrication. Most transits set up for urban service, rarely exceed 60 mph unless you change the rear axle ratio, about $2500 just for parts. Highway? More expensive up front. Flat floors, baggage bins, hiway gearing. Available in both 96" and 102", altho the 102s are more expensive. Stick shift and autos available. GMCs have V-drive powertrains (engine sits sideways across rear of coach), limits repower options. Most other models are T-drive, opening up lots of powertrain options. Automatics are preferred - easier to drive, easier to "wiggle" into campsites, Mama might drive it in a pinch, and easier to sell, if the time comes. GMC 40' models have the largest baggage bins available in a forty-footer, only a few of the new 45's have more. MCI, Prevost, Setra and VanHool are the four manufacturers currently building these models, others have come and gone. Luke's comments in another post about the shell being the "foundation" is dead on the money. Buy the newest and best-maintained shell you can afford, and make sure that it fits the criteria for your useage. Vehicles used in the SW USA are less prone to corrosion than Rust Belt models, but it can still occur, especially if a previous owner skimped on maintenance. If you want an automatic, walk away from a stick shift, far better to find another already-equipped than to undertake a swap. (As a footnote to that last sentence, IF you really enjoy driving, not just setting the cruise control and lettin' her roll, then you might prefer a stick shift. . .) For additional insight, you might pick up a copy of Larry Plachno's book "Beginner's Guide to Converted Coaches". Altho a little dated, the guidelines are well thoughtout. Read this and other bus bulletin boards for more info, there's a lot of information out there. As you can see, this question is really more complex than what people think. FWIW & HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"For additional insight, you might pick up a copy of Larry Plachno's book "Beginner's Guide to Converted Coaches"." This is an EXCELLENT recomendation as this book is the ONLY place I have ever seen the cost of having a coach Pro maintained is detailed. IF you cant do your own work its an eye opener for most! FAST FRED | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
Excellent post RJ, thanks. Over the years I am continually amused by the violent arguements between the different "types" of conversions, when in fact all of them are correct. This should help defuse lots of such "arguements" | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
On the money, RJ...clear, concise, inclusive. Nice job and thanx for your continued positive support of this great "hobby". RCB | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
RJ, as usual an excellent writeup. Would you consider adding another section regarding re-sale. Although many never consider that they will possibly have to re-sell the unit, there are an awfully lot of full and partial conversions on the market due to lots of reasons. Some of which are illness (sick of working on it) or real illness, lack of funds, do not like the RV lifestyle and probably many more reasons for selling. This is where the "do it your way" bug can really bite you. The more different the conversion is, the harder it will be to sell it. Just some ideas. Thanks, Richard | ||
| Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A |
People selling partially done coach conversions often want way too much money for them. I know of a stripped and raised MC-9 with windows covered and painted going for $30k. It has a 6V92 supposedly overhauled 30,000 miles ago. It has transit doors and not a one piece door. In my mind, $30k for an MC-9 is way too much even if it is raised with windows covered. A decent MC-9 can be bought for $15k easily and often for much less. Brian Elfert | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
One of the common problems I notice, is an enthusiastic buyer of a shell decides that EVERYTHING must be renewed. This is also usually the person that does not even own a wrench and hires it all done. After he has put new engine, tranny, brakes, wiring etc to replace perfectly serviceable parts, he finds he has far more in it than the unit will ever be worth, the bus goes up for sale with no hope of recovering the funds. Of course if he has the funds to spend on it, and it brings him peace of mind, so be it. | ||
| Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A |
If you find a full renewed coach as you've described for a good price, let me know. My worst fear is buying a coach and having an expensive 6V92 or 8V92 blow up on the way hiome or the first trip out. $14k for a new engine is a good chunk of money. Brian Elfert | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
Cost of a shell is based on alot of variables. Providing a coach has proper records, and is in exceptional shape, Plan on paying a premium. YEs you can get an MC-9 for under 10k but do you want it......likely not. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Brian - "My worst fear is buying a coach and having an expensive 6V92 or 8V92 blow up " That sir, is the least of the problems. You can replace a 6v92 for less cash than it costs to replace a 454 in a Winnebago. About two-thirds less, actually. And good used rebuilt can be had for less than 5 grand. The "worst fear" should be with all the things that have gone years, or hundreds of thousands of miles, without servicing. Those are the things that leap out at you in the middle of East Noplace - they are all the things that you can't inspect, and can't replace, since it is totally everything. Mention was made on another thread, regarding how long a bus has sat prior to sale. Buying a bus that has sat for 10 or more years can only bring empty pockets to it's new inexperienced owner. Everything will be nice and tight, until that speedo rolls off a few hundred and the rust that was keeping things tight and quiet starts to fall off. And rust, Brian... can be a real, real saddening thing to find. Especially after paying dearly for what you thought was a nice clean machine. It's all the small things, that can add up quickly, or a little at a time, that will make an engine replacement seem as traumatic as an oil change. You gotta' be nutz to do this stuff. | ||
| john david lebrun (Davidlebrun)
Rating: N/A |
One thing I would add, from personal experence, is to not get a converted coach, were the owner doesn't have good photo's of the work. And is as always a good idea, get a garage to look it over, by the way, make sure the garage isn't the one the owner used. david | ||
| Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A |
Doesn't a reman 6V92TA cost around $14k plus installation? That is some serious cash. I could swing it, but it is still a lot of money. You guys must have won the lottery if $14k doesn't seem like a lot. Maybe I'm better off with an older rig and having any problems fixed than I would be with a newer rig. Brian Elfert | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
In 1996 it cost 12k to have a new long block installed in our Winnebago (A rebuilt was 8k and a used one was 3 - 4k). A bus engine swap is 100xs easier. No windshields to remove, or in our case, the entire front end (I beam) was removed to get the engine out the bottom. For a bus, I could have had an 8v71 for under 2k, and a 6v92 for under 1k, last year. Both used and decent condition. New, used, and rebuilt DDs are all over the place. (www.dieselenginemotor.com) Like I said, the engine is the least of it. | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: |
It is still...a buyer's market. Look around, THINK about what RJ wrote, Ask questions of the seller. Ask for proof of maintenance, kick the tires (  ), who owned the thing, how does it look up, inside, down, etc.... Then, of course, there is always a brand new $$$$$$ shell..... (how many new autos have you purchased that didn't have problems under 10K miles? (I have a 2001 Dodge Ram 4x4 if someone out there should need one... under 50,000, Huecho en Mexico)....don't ask me!!! Be mindful of what you are doing,re-read RJ's post above and you'll probably do OK. As a former Real Estate Broker I would advise....make an offer! FWIW RCB '64 Crown Supercoach | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"$14k for a new engine is a good chunk of money" Thats from DD. A good commercial grade rebuild is $4000 to $5000. Shipping 2 ways and Instalation extra. FAST FRED | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Brian yes $14,000 for a reliabilt reman engine with exchange is a chunk of $ (I know thats 1 of the things thats been eat'n me lately try'n to come up with $14,000 to get this bus out on the rd. instead of taking up space inbetween the shop doors!), but the probability of having one of these engines blow on the way home is slim! These old leakers will give many years of service even when used hard, abused and neglected! Yes they will blow up! But it's not likely unless you get one someone has patched up on purpose! But you can get a good used 1 for a lot less! But we use ours in charter service, and can not afford to take a chance on a used engine as when ours are running they gotta go go go ang keep on going! Now I'm not saying a motorhome not as important as a charter bus, but there are several differances 1st if its yers you'll take better care of it than the driver that comes in here and "is paid to pick up these people and take 'm there 'n bring 'm back" and your not gonna be push'n yer to the limit day in and day out! You'll check the oil regularly! (I took the dipstick out of the engine one a bus I knew the driver wasn't checking the oil on once and put a piece of a broken one about 3" long in the tube just to see how long it'd take him to tell me that the dipstick was broken! Of course I made sure it was ok before it left every day without him knowing it! But after 3 weeks I asked how long it'd been since he'd checked the oil which was part of his job?!! When he told me yesterday morning I lost it, told to get his sh**, and go home! Well he went and got dad while I was changing into dress clothes to drive the charter that day! When they both were demanding to know what my problem was I pulled the broken dipstick out and told dad to go look at my daily log on my desk and tell me when I put this in here!Well to make a long story short I got a worse chew'n from dad than he did!) But my point is if it yers ya take better care of it! I'd find a good running coach that suits yer needs and have it checked out and go with it! | ||
| Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A |
FF, the rebuilt 6V92TA I saw was on Ebay. I just happened to come across it when searching for something else. It had a 100,000 mile warranty. No idea if it was a genuine DD rebuild or not. I doubt it. The company also had another 6V92 for $10,000 BIN or something like $3,600 for bid with no reserve. This one didn't mention turbo or a warranty. I haven't researched Detroit engine rebuilds so the $14k is probably high, but I can't see a rebuild being done for less than $9k by the time the engine is removed and reinstalled. I don't have a shop with the facilities to remove or install a huge engine so I would have to hire this out. I read a lot of horror stories about people buying old buses and the engine blows up on the way home or on the first trip. Maybe all the people with success stories just don't post them. Brian Elfert | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Brian that pretty blue 6V92 on ebay was for a V-Drive lefty rotation ( I checked on it! Ain't much about a bus gets by on ebay with out me at least looking at it and usually checking it out or buying it just to have here in the shop for when I come across a customer needing it!) And a rebuilt engine can be done cheaper than a Reliabilt DD because theres are a factory reman that means if it has bad heads it gets new heads, if the block needs work it gets a new block, if the crank is bad it gets a new crank, it's remanufactured! Now say a reputable "rebuilder is doing one those things will get reworked and will work fine but for how long? I'm not saying for the hobbiest that a reman is the smarter way to go, but when you depend on that engine day in and day out, under the worst circumstances it pays to go the difference and get the reman and know what ya got! After all if it's broke down it's not only not making you any $, but it's costing you $! Paying someone to finish the charter, towing, parts, labor, down time, and the list goes on! Our buses cost us at least $1000 per month each just for insurance, that's whether it goes anywhere or not! So this bus that's been sitting here blocking the drive fore 2 months has already cost us $2000 just sitting here not counting the trips it should've ran! So yes you can get by cheaper! I can not as it's our living! | ||
| motorcoach1 Rating: N/A |
JR great article .. then theres the guy that usees the motorcoach for work being to far to drive home everyday ..like me , on the grid | ||
| Jarlaxle Rating: N/A |
"In 1996 it cost 12k to have a new long block installed in our Winnebago (A rebuilt was 8k and a used one was 3 - 4k)." I hope they at least gave you a reach-around, and a kiss when they were done screwing you. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
It didn't cost me a dime, but that aside.... That charges and work was checked and re-checked (scrutinized legally to the nth), and found to be correct and justified for the job. (Other dealers/shops quoted the same or more, btw). | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
On my work truck I rebuilt a 454 engine, had the crank turned, the block machined .020 for hugh performance pistons, put in new everything including cam, gears,chain, PLUS 2 rebuilt heads and a new carb and still spent less than $2K. I also rebuilt the 6V92TA in my bus, also had everything machined, but was able to rebuild the heads, blower, water pump, governor and turbo. Had the crank and cams polished, and rebuilt the engine from a bare block using all new or rebuilt parts. That cost me around $4500. I did all the labor on both jobs. --Geoff '82 RTS AZ | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
That's right Geoff you said it all ! You said "I". Then had the crank turned (not new). Block Machined (again not new). Plus 2 rebuilt heads (again not new!). And you did it not a dealership! Ok thats on the 454! Now lets look at this! Again everything machined! (not new) rebuild the heads, blower, water pump, governor,& turbo! (again not new!) Had crank & cams polished. (again not new) and as I already pointed out YOU DID ALL THE LABOR!(NOT NEW LOL! just kidd'n on that 1 I just could stop myself!) You are right Geoff YOU can do it cheaperif YOU DO IT & USE MACHINED OR REBUILT PARTS! But the guy who hasn't got the slightest clue, or facilitys and tools to do all this has to have someone do it! Ok say you have my shop do all this rebuilding as mentioned above who covers the time(labor) of doing the rebuilding?! The rebuild FAIRY???!! Right I don't think so! That's what I'm getting at ya get what ya pay for and ya pay for what ya get! SO what was yer point? I dun forgotif I ever "new" LOL! Just joking! I was told not to take thing sadi on this or the other board seriously weren't you! LOL ! | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
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Oh by the way RJ sorry about hi-jacking yer thread but whowas iut that said... ahh never mind you know! LOL! Busted Knuckle! I'm back and worse than before!LOL! JTNG might even have some comp now!LOL! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
You certainly take the pressure off, Bryce. Thank you. (HAR) | ||
| Jarlaxle Rating: N/A |
Heck, for $12K I will personally drive out to the vehicle, replace the engine, drive home, and still pocket a few grand. | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
With a BRAND NEW 6V92TA? Heres my # 731-885-7460 the old engine is already out! All you gotta do is have the NEW ENGINE delivered here show up, put it in & collect your $ I'll give ya the shipping address and directions! | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
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I'd love to see that for 12K. You might do that with a rebuilt engine and reconditioned parts at $5.00 an hour labor. We have a hard time coming in under 10K with our Cummins engines and we do our own remove & replace. | ||
| Jarlaxle Rating: N/A |
I was referring to the 454 Winnie. |
