| Author | Message | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
I should be recieving my wabesto heater soon and need to start purchasing and planning my installation. I already have one small heater with a 12 volt fan on it and bidding on 2 more , one with two 12 volt fans and one with one. How many of these will I need? also exactly what do I need for a hot water heater that will work with this system? Where should I mount the wabesto? could some body give me a diagram or plan on how to hook this into everything including my engine? can I build my own water heater? also should I build in bypasses to help control heat if too hot? and switching for each fan? | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
Vehicle Systems.....David Haynes will guide you and send lots of stuff. Also check the archives....mucho there. Question....if you don't have an idea about what the Webasto does....why purchase one prior to knowing what to do with it??? Just curious  FWIW RCB | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
I don't believe any where in this post that I questioned what a wabesto does. and I didn't purchase it , it was kindly given to me. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Ron, The small fan heaters I have are 7000 BTU/h if yours are about the same you'd need 7 (I have 5 + 1 much larger heater). Atwood and Seward make water heaters with heat exchangers and electric heating elements in 6,11 & 20 gallon tanks (I have a Seward 11 gallon). Engine heat and preheating is best done through a heat exchanger with 45,000 BTU/h capacity, I have one by 'San Juan'. The engine heat/preheat heat exchanger needs to be mounted below the engine coolant level. If you want to preheat the engine you'll need a small pump on the engine coolant side of the heat exchanger. My Webasto is mounted above my transmission in the engine compartment. In choosing a location for the Webasto the exaust is an important concern. The exaust pipe can only have a total of 270 degrees of bend and what comes out of it is hot. You'll also need a coolant resevoiur for the heating system, it needs to be the highest point of the system and feed directly to the heater's pump, and your total coolant volume should be over 10 gallons. A switch for each fan heater is desirable. You'll need a thermostat or two and some relays for the fans and may want a coolant aquastat so the fans don't blow cold air. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Ron-- Here is the simplist way to hook up a Webasto: http://www.hydro-hot.com/Webasto/webasto_school.html The Scholastic Series shown has a large capacity pump. If you are installing a standard Webasto you may need to upgrade the pump to circulate the hot water properly. The heat exchanger water heater can be hooked up the same as the heaters. I recommend hooking up each heater and water heater, as well as the engine, in parallel rather than in series. --Geoff '82 RTS w/ Scholastic Series Webasto | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Ron, FF is the principal proponent of baseboard heating with the finned tubing used in some radiant systems. The principal benefit, if properly sized and installed*, is a reduction in dependance on circulating pumps. I understand passive convection is usually sufficient, except maybe cold environments like where you stuck your bus. I have 3 substantial heater cores from a GSA bus any one of which exceeds 50,000 BTU total (actually 7x7=49) mentioned by Jerry, but noise was not a design consideration with these units. Before I became a convert of the baseboard approach, I was contemplating various ways of "ducting" the airflow to reduce fan noise. IIRC, your floorplan is pretty open, obviating the need for "zone" control. This dovetails nicely with the radiant finned-tube approach. * IIRC, FF recommends 1" diameter, minimum and sweep ells, (A/C type not the typical 90's used by plumbers). | ||
| Donn Reeves
Rating: N/A |
Ron, I built my own system using a Pro-heat rather than a Webasco,but the plumbing would be the same.I'm familiar with household hydronic heating systems that are fully automated,and wanted my bus to be the same.I used Honeywell 24VAC zone valves to control the heat,hot water and engine pre-heat.A 120VAC to 24VAC transformer provides the power for these.For heat I ran one loop around the bus with 30'of common baseboard radiators and three 6000/8000 btu kick heaters,controled by a thermostat that controls the zone valve.For hot water,I picked up an 11 gallon heat excanger/electric unit from West Marine.That is controled by an aquastat and a zone valve.An aquastat is just a thermostat that controls water temp.The engine pre-heat is controled by a switch that operates the zone valve,and is plumbed into the defroster circuit.If you are not familiar with Honeywell zone valves,they are a water control valve with an on or off function.they can be controled by any form of switch.When the valve is powered open,an internal relay closes to turn the furnace on.What I have is a little more complex than others have done,but I wanted a system that I could turn on and walk away from.So far it has been running all winter full time with no problems at all. Donn '80 RTS NJ | ||
| Russ Barnes (Neoruss)
Rating: N/A |
Ron, FWIW, As I write this there are 12 hours left on a used 30,000 btu, 24 volt Proheat on the e-place #4616775699 at $450. Thanks to Donn's advise I bought one of these and while I haven't used it yet, I can tell it is far superior to the Wabasto that came in my bus. | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
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Ron, read Donn's post again, he is dead on the best setup I have seen. Many spend big bucks for kickboard fan heaters, but the baseboard units is definitely the way to go. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Ron, thinking of energy efficiency, if dry-camping, instead of going from 12/24VDC thru the inverter to 120VAC then down to 12 VAC, why not use 12/24VDC zone valves? Does Honeywell supply DC zone valves? | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Whoops, meant my post for Donn rather than Ron. Also, Donn, what size were the baseboard heaters, 3/4", 1" or ?? | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
as you guys know I have little time and lots to do before I take off on the road again. I need a relatively simple but efective instalation. since I realy don't know much about the way these work (bypasses, heat exchangers, zones and such) are you saying I should use the finned pipe I've seen in water type heating systems without fans? I would think that would be great for bays but I think I would want fans to circulate heat in cabin. what I would love to find is a drawing of a system in a conversion showing hook ups to engine water heater and regular heat showing part names and part #'s. when your zoning does that basicaly bypass one or more heating elements and go to the specific one yo need? I don't want to sound stupid(probably too late) but this is definately not my fortay. I have never been real comfortable with radiant heat especialy in cold climates. so I like the idea of the radiaters with fans on them. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Wasn't the link I provided enough to figure out a simple system?-- you just tie everything into the existing heater lines that run to the front of the bus. Parallel hookups means the heaters, etc. tie into the supply and return lines instead of running the flow directly through each one. And yes, you can get quite sophisticated with zone heating but all you need is an on/off switch for the Webasto and a wall thermostat for the box heater fans. --Geoff | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
Looks simple enough but what circulating pump do I use? how big? volume,cfm, gpm,? I must zone some areas and I see vaves that are themaly controlled which ones do I need? there are several different ones. will I only have limited control over heat or can I make each area as comfortable as needed? that diagram doesn't show how to hook up to motor. I want this to be as automatic as possible but also as simple as posible. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
Aren't the heater lines in your bus hooked up to the engine? That is how the engine gets warm from the Webasto. As far as the pump goes, you need to see if you are getting one with your Webasto and if so, try it and see if it works for you. If not then you have something to go by to get a bigger one. I have a wall thermostat that turns the heater fans on and off, if you want zone heating use a thermostat for each heater box, or do what I did-- put a toggle switch on each heater box if I don't want the fan on. The Webasto is operated by a separate on/off switch, so it stays running and keeps the water hot and running through the heater boxes, etc., while the wall thermostats only kicks the heater fans on at the set temperature. Once the interior warms up the circulating hot water is enough to keep warm without running the fans constantly. Look at the diagram again-- once the circulating system clicks in your head the controls will be simple. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
The original system out of the GSA bus used an accessory pump and 3/4" heater hose. Still have the pump, but never have tested it. I subsequently bought 3 nice Webasto 24V units with 1-1/4" outlets. I figure it will handle two 1" finned circuits. | ||
| Donn Reeves
Rating: N/A |
I used 30' of Slantfin 750 3/4" baseboard.It works fine down to about 25 degees,then I need more btu's.Most are mounted under cabinet toe kicks,and are a bit shrouded,so I may have lost some efficancy there.The biggest problem with baseboard is getting enough of it in too small a space.I added three kick heaters,but I don't run the fans unless it is real cold.12VDC zone valves would have made things a little more efficient and simple,but they are not available at every plumbing supply like the honeywells.It's not a power hungry system,so the inefficiancy of converting 12VDC to 120VAC hasn't been a factor. Donn Reeves '80 RTS NJ | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
If a person uses a wall thermostat to control cabin temperature with AC zone valves and circulator, then using a line thermostat to turn the AC power to these parts on and off will prevent them from keeping the inverter awake when there is no heat call. As an aside, because of the need for AC to get any heat, I would recommend that the coach always carry a backup inverter, just in case of an inverter failure. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The biggest advantage of using a big loop (or two) instead of toe kick or box heaters is the ability to boondock much longer. The furnace power draw is fixed , and MUST be put up with , but burning thru the power for "zone controll" and 4 to 7 extra electric loads is NOT. A quite small DC circ pump will heat the coach evenly in quite cool weather. If you need it hotter in the bath or cooler in the bedroom that's simply a pipe size consideration, or nipping off some of the fins. At the low temps (usually 130 -150) needed in the circ system if least heater on time is desired a tank must be provided to accept the heaters output . The real hassle is the BTU output of radiant pipe is circ water temp dependant and the btu output is low with 130F , so either loads of pipe must be installed , or youre stuck with the frequent firing 180 circ water system. If there is room to run a pipe , there is room to run another radiating back. The use of zone controll to heat water/grey /black tanks in a bay would require a bigger less efficent circ pump and a heater with a suitable fuel tank to heat the universe. FAST FRED | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Rating: N/A |
There is a poster on this board that has a newer Dina , Graham in L.A.?? His coach has a looped radiant pipe, including the return on both sides of the walls making a total effective lenght of somewhere around 140ft if memory serves me,without any fan coil units at all, or blowers assisting anywhere. This would appear to be ideal, with the major conflict being having to leave a gap behind cabinets and fixtures that would normally be solid mounted against the outside walls. Anyone out there that can suggest a solution to that conundrum? I would love to hear some ideas on that one. JOE. | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
Ron...lots of literature...diagrams....explanation and valuable stuff in the manuals which most vendors will furnish to you at no cost. I named one...sorry you were offended. I too was a real novice at WEBASTO at one time, but thru much trial and error and the help of those who deal with the situations concerning them, I would not trade mine, in fact used it this weekend in the high mountains of Southern NM and it worked flawlessly. *However*, I doubt I would be able to say that, even having read all the archives on this board...without the help of the manuals sent to me and the many e-mail and phone call conversations with a couple of the vendors.....and I bought mine from Ron the Busnut...Thanx Ron!!! FWIW RCB | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The simplest concept is to just make the "gap" part of the design. We use a similar space to carry the long (12ft)oars for a scull . There is no RULE that sez the lower cabinet boxes MUST touch the outer shell. The ability to heat 2X or even 4X as long with battety power is valuable! Its really unfortunate that coach interior designs (unlike boat interiors) are not really suitable for a Thermo Syphon setup. This is "old" style heating , what was done before electric was avilable in private homes , and engineering had to provide , rather than a circ pump. FAST FRED | ||
| Donn Reeves
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The problem I found useing hydronic base board,is that there is just not enough clear space to put them.They only work when mounted to a wall unshrouded.If you mount them in the toe kicks of the cabinets like I had to,they lose efficiancy.I have never seen a bus conversion that has enough clear wall space to make it work.Having said that,I can heat the bus down to 30 degrees with just the baseboard.Lower than that,I need to turn on the Kick heaters.With three kick heaters it has to be real cold to need all of them.Insulation is not a problem in my coach.There was a foot of snow on the roof for a month with the heat going full time.Window area,however is a problem I will adress with good shades. Donn '80 RTS NJ | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
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Ron yer unit is on the way! UPS picked it up today and says delivery weds? I emailed you a tracking #. BK | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
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Note for FRED Did some reading up on thermo syphon systems, and must agree that it would be impractical to consider it. However one large loop on both sides with GAPS for the cabinets will be given serious consideration. JOE |