| Author | Message | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: |
I need to tell my friends son exactly what I need. can you guys tell me what I need? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
(don't go there, ron....) | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A |
?????? | ||
| motorcoach1 Rating: N/A |
it is binary code in DOS 16 bit numerical , the code is not a self knowledge code so you have to manually key in the codes by hand or have someone that has the set points- that area of the interned use. thats why it's caled MNC binery 8 bit emu uses that. | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
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Got my attention! Now I want to know what we're talking about.  I don't suppose it would be adjusting the DDEC computer, without the aid of a thousand dollar box or adapter and software would it? I was hunting around on it, but couldn't find anything. I found that there is a cable to go from the DDEC to a RS232 port, but pinouts, required mystery hardware diagrams, and info on the data is very elusive. I found all the wonderful references saying that all kinds of neat data is there (ummm, everything about the bus operation), but absolutely nothing on reverse engineering it. I thought this was odd, since everything else I've ever looked around enough for, I've found info on. I'd *LOVE* to have a chance to put something like AutoTap (http://www.autotap.com/) together for the DDEC's. In a car, it's kinda tight to put a screen where the driver can see it, but in a bus, there's plenty of resources (space, power, room for all kinds of fun hardware) Anyone care to point me in the right direction? | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
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JW Check out --> http://www.simply-smarter.com/ I'm going to try this out for my "GLASS DASH" project - this product was made for the Diesel ECM convention - such as DDEC The VMSpc Software's free - you buy the interface for $395 (the interface device conditions the signals and modifies the data stream to VMspc conventions sorry RON - it will not change DDEC settings Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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It's a secret.. Detroit want's to have everyone under their absolute control. They don't want the EPA slamming them for releasing info and equipment capable of changing the EPA accepted standards for their engines, Oh and besides the GREED factor prevails... | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"They don't want the EPA slamming them for releasing info and equipment capable of changing the EPA accepted standards for their engines, Oh and besides the GREED factor prevails..." Bahdahbing / Bahdahboom! On the money, doc! | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
"Greed factor prevails" Who's being greedy? Do you have a clue what the R&D costs to develop this stuff? Or the extra burden imposed by the Gov't? In 78 or so, I attended a "private dealer promo" for Chrysler Dealers in San Francisco. They had a Valiant with a solid tappet engine. The RPM ranges the engine operated at made the quieter hydraulic tappets transparent as to emissions. The slight compliance allowed by the hydraulic tappets had an all but un-measurable difference in admissions. However, the testing required by the Feds would have cost $millions and weeks of time, too long to ramp up for the next years production. I've posted before about crash testing. If you change the shade of blue in the emblem on the front of the grill, no retesting. But, if you change the dimensions of the, for example "Ford" PLASTIC! emblem 1/4" you have to re-crash test. The car has to be fully instrumented (at a 1999 cost of over $250K) In each example, the Gov't test rep agreed that it was a waste of time, but, it's what he did to bring home the groceries. The complaint you voiced should be expressed to your representative not to DD. In view of this you have to ask yourself who's greedy, DD or someone unrealistically wishing access to the product of big expense and hard work. Onward and Upward | ||
| james dean boggs (Jd_boggs)
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Building a "reader/writer" would be tricky but not impossible. The ECM has an EEPROM which requires special voltage levels to erase and write to the the EPROM without loosing all your data. These instruments should have a EPROM copy feature so you don't loose your data if you make a mistake. Then there's the data format required by the EEPROM this should be realtively easy to get if you know which chip they use. Then it's just a matter of getting the hand book from the chip designer. I used to make JTAG instruments which are very similar to what DDEC uses just a different spec. Revese engineering is done daily just need to know how much time and money you want to spend. OR This is the hand held device: http://www.nexiq.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?GID=2&item_id=9 This is the "personality" card for DDEC: http://www.nexiq.com/Catalog/product_detail.asp?GID=3&Brand=Diagnostics+Applications&displ ay=MORE&part_no=804218&item_id=104 Choose your cable: http://www.nexiq.com/Catalog/products.asp?GID=7&Brand=Cables%2C+Adapters+and+Pro%2DLink+Pr inter or just purchse the kit: http://www.nexiq.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?GID=2&item_id=5 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Marc? The ref regarding the "propriety info" was accurate, and more likely the reason the info's kept in their propriety vault. MCI doesn't lose money by providing information for the servicing of their equipment. They provide the needed tools and info to the dealers, but refrain from handing it out to the street; What other reason for doing so? The ref to "greed" was tongue-in-cheek (upper or lower cheeks?). Manufacturers of anything, have a right to make a profit, just as anyone in business. Our gubberment has no "right" to limit profit, regardless of the business venture - lawyers, doctors, etc., included. (Well, in -my- opinion, anyway) | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
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Ron, Nothing in the SAE J1587/J1708 data stream will change the operating parameters of the engine. Neither will a Nexiq reader/programmer you will pay several hundred dollars for -- until those parameters have been unlocked by a DD dealer using a PC linked to a server at DD. The third party programmers don't have this capability simply due to a thing called "copyright". I found it more economical to take the bus to a DD dealer and pay for the one time programming changes you MAY need. JW and Pete, The VMSpc works great. Have 13 parameters on my 10 inch LCD that fits in the center of the dash. Got rid of the few factory gauges except air and fuel level. DDEC does not have those parameters. Bought new white face air and fuel gauges. For everyone, the data in the J1587, J1708, and J19xx protocols were developed by SAE, not the individual manufacturers. These protocols are communication links for engine and transmission used by all manufacturers of same. They are not related to computer control of engine parameters. They are an information pipe between computer(s) and the engine and transmission. Chuck | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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EMP.. The end of all electronically controlled engines! Thanks, I will keep my antique MUI engine and Hydraulic transmission please and thank you. Marc, Don't be so touchy. Detroit and all the other engine manufacturers realized the return on investment when the switch to electronic engines came along. Everyone pays sooner or later. As long as I can run the crap until it goes to the shredder thats all I care about. As for Poor Multibillion Dollar companies whining about development costs.... Waaaaaa....All the way to the bank !!!!! | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca Rating: N/A |
Yes EMP that great "off button" in the sky. I admit I can't get my imagination very far away from the old crap either, DrDave. Just makes our whole system so vulnerable to a naturally occurring problem that does happen from time to time; and can be man made too, with not to much effort. Hummmmmmmmmmm the ultimate lesson in planed obsolescence? | ||
| Sammy (Sammy)
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Tell him you need a Pro-Link, with a DDEC II/III cartridge, and an Allison cartridge too.Don't forget the cables and adapters. This will be enough for you to maintain your bus. It is an extremely rare occasion that the DDEC ECM would need to be re-programmed. You don't need to worry about that. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
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Thanks Sammy, That was all I was looking for. not all the other rederick about government cover ups, corperate espianage, propriotory perimeters, ozone depletion or the effect of global warming on sperm whales. thanks to JD Boggs too | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Wer'e just jealous Ron, You have gotten more done in 2 months than most of us get done in 5 years. O-Zone ? would that be like "B"N"O-Zone"? You should know by now that topics tend to drift all over the road... Just like us.. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"DDEC/ADEC programer doodat thingamajig" Oh gawrsh. I guess we got confused by the mention of that "doodat thingamajig". I swore it was part of the black helicopter that circles my house... apparently not! Glad you -finally- got the response you needed, Ron. I hope taking the scenic route took your mind off the long wait.... | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
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It's a secret.. Detroit want's to have everyone under their absolute control. They don't want the EPA slamming them for releasing info and equipment capable of changing the EPA accepted standards for their engines, Oh and besides the GREED factor prevails... David, There's a lot they don't want to get out. Sure, they make a fortune on it. Luckly for car folks, they OBDII protocol was required to be standardized across many cars, so it was easier for people to get it. Anything can be reverse engineered. I once reverse engineered a connection to a motorola cell phone. That was a tricky bastard, because they'd start the session at 2400 baud, and switch to 9600 baud mid session. I don't know if you know much about computers, but that's how the hackers keep writing better viruses. They reverse engineer particular parts of programs, find exploitable bugs, and then take advantage of them. I've read a lot of virus code. There's some interesting stuff there, and a lot of people copying other people's work. In the end, I wouldn't write a virus. I could, but there's nothing in it for me. I don't want to break things. I don't want to annoy people. I just like to know how things work. Reverse engineering the data put out from a DDEC computer doesn't hurt DD's financial position as far as selling their engines or computers. Having the information on the output data doesn't say how to make the device to actually generate the data, nor control engine functions. Thanks to everyone else who gave links. I'll have a good look at them later. If it's already done for a few hundred bucks, there's no real reason for me to reinvent the wheel. I may play with the data stream a bit, to see if I can improve on their product. Usually if I can make improvements, I send them back to the original author. Maintaining a software package is a pain in the ass. You'll always have customers who have problems, and they all want personalized attention. Every person who has a problem will come bitching, even if the problem is that they failed to plug it in properly. I do systems administration. Users are the biggest pain in my ass. I'll get calls from people who will say something isn't working. Use email as an example. "My mail isn't working.." blah, blah. I talk them through a dozen different steps to try to diagnose the problem. One example of a pain in the ass is a user who wasn't on his computer, but he wasn't even home. He ran me through the drill, to make sure his account would work. He had just moved, and wanted me to look over his working account to make sure it worked. His computer was still in a box in his livingroom. The last such problem came up a few days ago. A user called screaming that their mail wasn't working. It turned out, it wasn't the mail from my server, but mail from someone elses server, on an account they hadn't paid for so it was deactivated. What the hell am I suppose to do about that? Enough ranting. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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Let me add to this thread with a problem V-drive LH Detroit DDEC owners face-- if you are trying to boost the horsepower on your former transit DDEC engine the Detroit dealers will not boost it past 277HP, even though it is not a transit anymore. When they punch in the serial number on the engine it comes back as an EPA transit engine and no amount of arguing that it is no longer a transit but now registered as a motorhome will get them to change their minds. It sure would be nice to be able to avoid the dealer for horsepower upgrades. Now people have to be creative to get around the hurdle. --Geoff '82 RTS AZ | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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If I were an electronics geek (I am) who wanted to up the horsepower of my electronic engine (I don't) ...instead of starting by trying to out-think a massively integrated piece of low-level ECM software that is linked to DD's home servers, I'd start at the other end, for example thinking about what it actually is that makes an engine put out more horsepower...ie injector pulse width... It would probably be a whole lot easier to intercept the injector signals and make some simple electronic drivers that make them fire a little longer when the pedal is to the metal, etc, than it would be to try and decompile, understand, and screw with assembly level code in an ECM. It might take a little more than that, but I bet it's not much more. Basically design a circuit that looks at the throttle pedal position (easy) drives the injectors (easy), looks like injectors to the ECM (a bit more difficult but not too much so), and adds a bit more pulse width to the injectors than the ECM is commanding as the throttle gets further depressed. I've used tactics like that many times in my engineering life, and it usually works well and much simpler to implement. I'm on that track again with the autoshift I'm putting in my Crown... instead of trying to create J1939 data from scratch that allows the tranny work as designed, I'm sticking an entire series 60 DDEC4 ECM + sensors (all from ebay) onto my old MUI Cummins 220, and "faking it out" to make it think that it's actually running my engine when it really isn't, then using it's J1939 link to satisfy the tranny. Much easier than doing it the software way without knowing what is needed by the tranny and what isnt.... Think out of the box... you may just get where you want to a lot faster.... | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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MultiChannel data analyzer. tap every input and output, capture live data under running conditions. Look at PWM, triggers, pressure transducers, system clocking and so on. Figure out what CPU is in the ecm modules. The while capturing the raw data also capture a synchronized J1939 signal. Compare that data to what signals are being sent to the engine. Once you have the data snapshot, plug that into a PLC with enough speed and inputs & outputs to simulate or even replace the "factory" ecm with your own. Run the whole show from a laptop.... But you already knew that... | ||
| JR
Rating: N/A |
What about buying a similar series (II,III,IV) DDEC ECM that has been removed from an OTR vehicle with a similar engine? They'll be programmed for higher HP. May need to have the transmission parameters changed to suit your existing transmission, DD would likely do that. For those "fortunate" souls that own a DDEC I (87 NJT MC9s?), it is easily pumped up. It's the later versions that DD doesn't want to alter because of potential EPA emissions violations. Looks like someone could, if there was a demand, reverse engineer DDEC systems. Automotive ECMs can now be reprogrammed on a home computer... I've got an Chevy LT4 ECM that that is surely more complex than a DDEC system. It can be modified in any way, anytime. If there was any demand (as in $$$), someone would be figuring it out, or creating new aftermarket ECMs. DDEC outputs could be ID'ed and the system sorted out. Some DD dealers will modify DDEC parameters, for a buck per HP. They start from "0" from what I understand. Gotta shop for them. Biggest problem is that DD dealers don't care for buses...they don't want to work on them. Probably help if you "know" someone. JR | ||
| Matt Bennett
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So, I'm looking at RTS transit busues on ebay, thinking I've got something really good for really cheap, but these buses are DDEC IV and governed to 60mph, but not low geared. Are you guys saying that I'll never be able to get he governed speed changed? So help me, I'll buy a Crown school bus from the 70's! Just for spite! | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
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The '82 GMC RTS I just got isn't computerized. It topped out at 65mph according to the speedometer. My friend following me said it was 60mph, so we may have a bit of error in the speedometer. We assumed it would have a DDEC-something in it, so we were hunting for places to have it changed. At very worst, you could go to a detroit diesel shop, and have them change it. Or you could get your own programmer, but you may run into an issue with passwords, or so I've been told. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
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Matt The Kansas City Ebay list - is somewhat misleading- There buses have 5.13 rear ends (I asked) - good for 62 MPH at 2150 rpms simple as that they have their DDEC IV set to limit the speed to 60 MPH remove the limit and you get 62 - big deal Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| Matt Bennett
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thanks SOOO much Pete, I was really considering one of those, and didn't even realize how mislead I was! Now I know the right question to ask. You guys all have saved me money and filled my head with ideas, and I don't even have a bus yet. This place is great. Thanks! | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
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Matt I understand that the bus from KC are in very good shape - little rust - friendly helpful personel at the maintenance shop I just had a friend purchase one- he is very pleased so don't mis-understand my post It's just that I KNOW a number of bidders were going to read that ad and figure they could save the $2000-3000 cost of a highway gears Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
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Just to make sure we are all on the same page, the DDEC has two levels of programming. The HP/torque tables and some switching on/off of some outputs (such as J1939) can only be done by a DD dealer via the DD mainframe. The second level of programming can be done by anyone with a Pro-link type system. For some of the program changes, a password is required (standard is 0000). Once the password is accepted, you can change a great many variables. For example, you can change or remove the limiting speed, turn the cruise control option of/off and set several variables for the cruise control. You can change variables such as rear end ratio and overdrive values to correct speed output. You can even select HP/Torque settings within the table that is resident in the ECM. Most of the tables I have looked at only have one or two options in the table and then mostly the dual HP settings that are controlled by turning on/off the cruise control switch. With the Pro-link you can look at all of the engine history and fault codes (since the last reset) So, bottom line, there are many settings you can have changed without going to a DD dealer. Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO ’85 Eagle 10 http://rvsafetysystems.com Toll Free: 1**888**349**0704 Bus Project details: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 2/9/06) | ||
| Matt Bennett
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I understand completely, Pete, and yes the KCATA buses seem to be in very good shape and very well maintained. But what you said was exactly right, when they said the buses weren't lower geared, I assumed they meant that a computer change wouldproduce nice, quick highway cruise. I'm not even saying they're purposely misleading anyone, but I need a bus that can highway hopefully right away, and that would have been a hugely mistaken purchase for me. So anyway, thanks again, and to everyone for the reams of info on this board. |
