| Author |
Message |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 7:09 pm: | |
Hey, anyone out there have any idea of what *actual* data gets exchanged between Eaton Autoshift trannys and engines? IE I'm looking to find -exactly- what J-1939 CAN data the autoshift sends to and receives from the engine ECM during shifts (and not during shifts as well).
Reason? I'm actually going to stick an autoshift in my Crown, and it doesn't have an electronic engine. So I am eventually going to figure out how to supply the tranny with what data it needs to work properly.
With the J-1939 "not" there, the tranny will revert to work as an autoselect tranny which is good enough for me for the time being. But eventually I want it to work as desigined, almost completely automatic.
I know it's a hairy project but humans created these systems in the first place, not aliens, so I should be able to figure it out. Eaton is not so user friendly at this low a level, but I'm working on that angle as well...
Any leads to this knowledge would be appreciated |
Gary Carter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 7:58 pm: | |
One of the main functions is to shut down the engine during upshifts. Well not quite but. Anyway the autoshifter works by sycronizing the engine speed to the transmission speed, just like you would do if shifting without the clutch.
So without a computer on your engine the transmission will not be able to tell the engine to slow down if upshifting and speed up during a down shift. |
Bruce S
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 8:23 pm: | |
look into autoSelect unit not autoshift one
http://www.roadranger.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=Roadranger%2FeTpageDetail%2FLit eratureCenterListingUS-HDA&cid=1051220545515&c=Page&Node=Literature+Center&inner=y&Product =Transmissions&Language=en_US&SubCategory=Heavy-Duty%2C+Automated&ContentType=Service+%26+ Troubleshooting&Image1.x=13&Image1.y=5
For information and assistance 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, call 1-800-826-HELP (4357) |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 8:54 pm: | |
Gary and Bruce, thanks although I'm way deeper into this project by now than all the Roadranger website stuff, which I've already consumed. And I know how the autoshift works... what I'm wanting to know is, what are the actual data stream contents that get sent back and forth between engine and tranny, ie the CODES.
For example, the autoshift tells the engine to back off during a downshift and speed up during an upshift, and so besides "listening" to torque, RPM and probably a few other parameters, it also takes control of throttle and Jakes, etc. Of all the scads of data that flys by on the CAN bus, I want to know what the tranny listens to and what it ignores...
The CAN bus (J-1939) has loads of data on it at all times, as I said most of which the tranny ignores. I'm wanting to know EXACTLY what parameters it pays attention to, and EXACTLY what data it sends out when it takes control of the engine. I seriously doubt that the Eaton 800 number will give me any of that... this is deep engineering stuff...
Basically I'll eventually either purchase an ECM from some engine and fake it out with enough dummy inputs and a few real ones so that it thinks it's running my engine when it actually is not... or I'll design something to emulate an ECM from scratch, at least as far as the tranny is concerned. Either way I can then feed the tranny what it needs to know.
From there, I have to intercept throttle commands and any other things the tranny sends out, and make those commands happen, either by coming up with J-1939 controlled actuators (Woodward makes some) or something similar for my motor.
...........
Bruce, an Autoshift transmission WILL behave as if it is an Autoselect transmission, if it doesn't see J-1939 data coming in. This is a factory installed "fallback" mode, put there so a truck won't get stuck if the data link fails.
So I am installing an Autoshift. This gives me the following option-
For the time being, I'll have to drive it as if it were an Autoselect tranny, then as I said, when I get the data stream ironed out, I can get it to work a lot more like an autoshift.
SO what I'm looking for is someone that has detailed technical information on the data stream that the tranny requires and produces... not info that the average 800 number will provide... |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:28 am: | |
Gary,
You may be better off approaching the problem from a different standpoint as you don't have electronically controlled injectors.
The AMT and CEEMAT transmission protocols dealt with automated shift trannys matched to MUI engines.
This MUI engine approach looks to throttle position, engine rpm, road speed, couple other things. Biggest problem is the throttle interrupt, supplied by electronic injectors in DDEC type engines, a CEEMAT or AMT tranny hooked to a MUI engine required a throttle kicker, which always was a PITA. But necessary to unload the drivetrain to shift and also to match engine rpms upon shifting gears.
The great improvement in controls since those programs evolved into the current autoshift electronic trannys makes the MUI approach more feasible now, but the electronic engines are so much more adaptable to "mating" electronic trannys with electronic engines that I'm guessing you need an intellectual challenge or you work for $.15/hr. LOL !!!
I've got someone with extensive developmental experience with this drivetrain system. If you're really serious I'll see if he'll tolerate the "distraction" !!!! LOL.
Onward and Upward |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 1:24 am: | |
Marc,
Maybe I'm "way all wet", but I've got an idea about the unloading problem... since I have a PT system, it seems to me to be as simple as putting a solenoid controlled unloading regulator, teed into the injector pump's output line... set the regulator to dump anything above a set pressure back into the fuel return lines. Turn on the solenoid, instant idle no matter what the fuel pump is trying to do...
...anyway, would you mind emailing me? I'd love to get into a discussion about it all... addy is nn my profile... |
William J Kluge, Jr. (Flx_a_bill)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:02 am: | |
Will the Autoshift or Ultrashift talk to a DDEC II, or must it be a DDEV III or IV? and are these transmissions available used or new at a reasonable price? and as a note, I was informed by Ryder technician, that there were a lot of problems with the earlier Autoshifts, but he really did not elaborate... |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:27 am: | |
Bill, Gary and I have been doing a lot of “talking” on his project. Both of us agree that he has a real challenge, but Gary sounds like he has a good handle on the issues and is working diligently to solve the mysteries of the J1939 protocol.
Now to your question. On an electronic DDEC engine, the AutoShift needs to have access to a J1939 data link. I am fairly sure that DDEC II does not have the software and hardware for that link. All of my reading said that the DEC III had the J1939 capability. I took my ECM in to Stewart & Stevenson (DD dealer) and asked them to turn on that option (can’t be done with a Pro-Link – has to be done via the main DD computer). I WATCHED them try several times to activate the J1939 port. While the DD computer said it was possible and provided the permission, it simply would not work on my specific ECM. I ended up buying a DDEC IV ECM and everything worked just fine.
So that suggests that DDEC III is iffy and that a DDEC IV may be required.
As to the reliability of the AutoShift, I too have heard rumors of problems. I have not yet found substantiation of such a problem. When you consider the complexity of the electronics, it might be easy to speculate that there were some issues with software in the early days. As far as the mechanical and electronic hardware, I have not heard of verified problems. I was very careful to ask that question of the local Eaton tech. rep. (who updated my software) and he said that there were no major issues, nor, was there a need to carry spare parts.
I also have to wonder if some of the “problems” that seem to be associated with the transmission are not really driver problems. I ran into one person who said the transmission worked fine going up through the gears, but he could not synchronize the clutch with the gears when going down in gears. Obviously that person did not understand the concept of the transmission. By using the clutch during gear changes, he probably threw the software into a “tizzy” and who knows if he did damage to any of the mechanical components.
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10
http://rvsafetysystems.com Toll Free: 1**888**349**0704
Bus Project details: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 2/17/05) |
mleibelt
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:06 pm: | |
I drove for a company that had a Eaton in a MCI 102A3...Got changed to a Allison 740 because of towing the bus to the shop to many time to fix the tranny that would not shift or would get into forward and reverse at the same time and go nowhere...My choice is DON'T do it...There are better choices for trannies....And BIG $$$$ to fix
Mark |
William J Kluge, Jr. (Flx_a_bill)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:51 pm: | |
Thanks Jim,
Had to ask, because I just bought a '92 Gillig with a 6V92 DDEC II and an Allison 748, both seam to be in a good operating condition, luckily, especially the engine. I bought the bus that has rusty frame problems, to use the engine and stuff in an old Flxible VL100... Although I'm far from getting to the stage of installing the engine, I'm trying to learn if I do a DDEC upgrade, if I can go to one of these newer transmission, that is if I stumble on one for a decent price, can it work. Got to keep on learning... And it is good to hear from you again... Hope you solved your rear axle problem... (at least that is what I recall.) |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 8:19 pm: | |
Mark, I hate to “argue” with a good customer (grin), but I suspect that problem bus was an isolated case, or had some sort of isolated problem (my guess is bad installation).
As a counter point, US Xpress has ordered all of their company trucks with AutoShift for many years. It appears that they may have recently switched to trucks with ZF Meritor "smart shift" transmissions (similar transmission). If they had a lot of problems with automated transmissions, they would have switched back to non-automated transmissions long ago.
Jim |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 11:37 pm: | |
Bill, a friend of mine did an AutoShift conversion on an Eagle with a Series 60. He had already done a conversion from DDEC II to DDEC III. I think it involved a kit of some sort rather than just an ECM swap as the connectors are not the same (according to him). In any case he then did another drop in swap to DDEC IV and the whole system worked fine.
The above is off the top of my head and we must have had 30 phone conversations as he fought several issues to get the two systems working. I can get more details if you wish, since I will see him at the Eagle rally next week.
On my Eagle, I now have the ring and pinion plus the drop box installed (both rebuilt). I have a lot of work to do on the rear end (full floating bearings, brakes, etc.). We spent about three weeks on the road for Bussin' 2006 (plus a quick trip home for Christmas) and now we are getting ready to head to Quartzsite for the Eagle rally. If I would stay home, I could get the darn thing on the road (grin).
Jim |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:25 pm: | |
Hello Eaton fans and detractors.
One of the biggest problems with the autoshift/autoselect transmissions was, and is, the wetware.
No one knew what to tell the drivers, or the mechanics, so they went out and broke them as best as they could.
Knowledgable and patient instruction, some supervised time to practice, a few good trips under the belt, and you'll have a hard time taking that tranny away from a driver.
New stuff in the hands of people who don't do well with new stuff was the problem.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
outlaw
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 7:08 am: | |
Trans does not tell the engine what to do it requests it only.
if the engine does not want to do it it won,t |
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