| Author |
Message |
H3 Jim
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 8:39 am: | |
I am visiting Japan and it is interesting to me that all the transit buses shut the engine off at every stop light. The lights are no longer than they are in the US. When the light changes, they restart and drive off. All the engines are four stroke, made by Isusu or Nissan. Fuel prices are high, around $5.00 a gallon. Japanese are highly analytical, and I'm sure have studied this in depth. I'd like to add this bit of trivia to the ongoing debate. |
Arnold J Molloy (Ayjay)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 8:51 am: | |
Hi:
There may be something to it???
When visiting Athens, Greece we saw the same thing. Even the taxi's shut down at stop lights, when asked, the drivers response was "that was the way they were taught to drive".
Starters MUST be cheap!!!!!! |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:29 am: | |
This is the trend for private passenger vehicles.
IIRC both the Toyota and GM pickups will employ this feature in the near future.
With the Toyota it's automatic, the starter engages from the gas pedal when you seek to move aways from the stop.
Some hybrid designs will used the electric motors to "assist" the engine on take-off from a stop
H-3 Jim, How do you like those "HUGE" windshields? Like almost 3/4" thick at the bottom! |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:32 am: | |
Shutting the vehicle off at every traffic light, then restarting
it when the light turns green, has got to be the most ridiculous
"requirement" I've ever heard of. Sounds like Greenpeace
politics has taken over?
Green Car Congress
Insane, totally insane. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
Not necessarily so John, back when I was trucking, many years ago, a number of fleets were equipped with such devices to shut engine down at stoplights. Careful statistics were maintained, usually with half the fleet "normal" and half with the shutoff devices. The maintenance figures for the shutoff equipped vehicles on all fleets dropped drastically compared to the ones that probably ran all night at times. Fuel economy of course was better, but at that time nobody really cared much about that. Despite the fears that the battery and starter life would suffer, it did not. We learned a lot from those studies, and the advantage of idle time restrictions was one of them.
Of course the hired driver types hated them. They were used to just starting the darned thing up and shutting down when they went home.
A couple of years ago I was on a trip in an MCI Renaissance, it was so equipped but with a 10 minute restriction as I recall. When stopped, I was the designated starter, every 10 minutes I had to start it up again, so the air conditioning would cool the bus full of passengers. |
Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:12 am: | |
IIRC VW back in the '70's experimented with a power package which included one of their diesels that incorporated a huge flywheel.
Every time you stopped the engine would quit and the flywheel would freewheel. When you pressed on the throttle the flywheel would engage and restart the engine. The flywheel had enough inertia(?) or momentum(?)to keep spinning for several minutes.
It seemed like a very elegant solution to having the electric starter engage every time the engine needed to restart.
What made the solution impractical was the flywheel weighed almost as much as the engine. Scaled up to other applications the weight of the flywheel becomes impractical.
Even so, not idling the engine would sure save a lot of fuel in stop and go driving while reducing emissions as well.
Mark O. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:22 am: | |
Whoa, wait a min...
"The maintenance figures for the shutoff equipped vehicles on
all fleets dropped drastically compared to the ones that
probably ran all night at times."
Yeah, I can agree with that.... but not at every traffic light!
With today's fuel prices, I don't want to have my car or bus
idling more than necessary.... but with the amount of traffic
we have, and the amount of traffic lights we have, shutting
down at every one will do more damage than good.
For the new high tech vehicles, designed to be used in that
manner, it may be perfectly fine. But for the old clunkers
most of us drive, we'll kill the batteries, starters, and due
to insufficient heat from all that off time, likely the engine
as well.
Down here in Florida, the traffic situation has gotten so bad,
driving through red lights has become a major problem. Forcing
drivers to wait, while you restart the engine, can result in some
real nasty bruises. And the first time my old clunker fails to
restart due to a dead battery from all those start procedures
from here to Walmart, well....
Aside from that..... The amount of unburned fuel used during the
initial start-up (with the older vehicles), adds to the environmental
problems, doesn't it? Or am I not understanding something..?
Naww, I can't buy into this.. (not that it matters) |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:48 am: | |
John TIG (The Impatient Guy)
How are the old engines included in the "new" program? No new laws requiring every vehicle operator to stop their engines at lights have been passed.
What's the factual basis behind your opinion that "shutting down at every one will do more damage than good" Let's have some apples vs. apples and oranges vs. oranges facts to support that position!
The only significant design change in the "new" operating style are features or accessories to accomodate the different operating cycle(s). The internals won't be much different as the peak loads/cycles control the design more than idling loads.
Insufficient heat? How much will a stopped engine cool off during the 1-2.5 minute red light interval?
Again, the above comes from the approach that you jumped to the conclusion that all vehicles, regardless of date of mfg will have to stop their engines at stops.
Onward and Upward |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:17 am: | |
Marc..
"you jumped to the conclusion that all vehicles, regardless
of date of mfg will have to stop their engines at stops."
Actually -you- have leaped to the conclusion that all vehicles
won't be held to that procedure. What vehicles are exempt
from California's pollution regulations?
For driving conditions with light traffic, and miles between
traffic lights, the engine would have time to heat. Try that
procedure in NYC, Long Island, Brevard County, Florida...
or any major city, for that matter.. With a traffic light every
1/10 mile, how long will it take to heat the engine between
lights? And not too many traffic lights down here cycle in 1-2.5
minutes, by the way. Let's keep in mind, that a stop sign is no
different than a traffic light. We sit behind cars at many, down
here, while they wait for a clear shot. Conditions may be
better in "the burbs", or out in the sticks, but not in the densely
populated areas...
Aside from the lack of heat producing engine run, how long
would -your- battery remained charged, if you were to shut
down every tenth of a mile and restart, doing that for a few
or more miles?
Sit in the driveway, run the engine for one minute, shut down
and wait two minutes, and restart. Do that thirty-forty times
and let me know..
Unless you're using AGMs and a high charge rate, I doubt
you'll get too far...
Well.... that's my take on it.... With a new hybrid, no prob...
with my present old clunkers... no way.
(Inward and Upward?)
(HAR) |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 12:35 pm: | |
Two separate issues here. Shutting down at stop lights is nonsense, and has to create greater wear and tear on the engine, starter, and batteries. Keep in mind Japan and the Euros are into saving the world in an intense fashion.
The other issue is long term ideling of the engine when stopped at terminals, rest stops, truck stops, etc. Per the monthly Flying J magazine the EPA already has had the law passed restricting idel time to 5 minutes, anywhere, beginning sometime in 2008. They also stated the engine timing device must be manufactured such that it cannot be modified, and that the major engine manufacturers will have these devices on engines manufactured in 2007.
The news blurb made no mention of any talk about shutting down at stop lights. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 2:55 pm: | |
I really do not agree that frequent starting will create greater wear and tear on the engine, starter or batteries. Starters generally go for the life of the vehicle without having to be changed and I do not see how frequent starting could damage an engine. Just my opinion however.
Richard |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 6:05 pm: | |
Typically, (in Cal, the most agressive state) a vehicle is held to the smog standards in place as of date of Mfg.
This was not the case years ago when California imposed NOx devices on older cars. IIRC, a federal judge reversed the order as the older cars were impacted by the NOx devices. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 8:55 pm: | |
I didn't research it Marc, but I can accept the notion that old
vehicles can be exempt from terribly burdening requirements
that new vehicles must adhere to... It would leave our old
clunkers as-is, pollution-wise.. That's not to say they can't
add licensing fees (regulatory fees), making the use of an
old clunker too expensive for most of us...
From Green Car Congress:
"The idea of drivers shutting of their vehicles to spare the
air is not new. The state of Oregon, for example, advises
drivers to turn off their engines after more than 10 seconds
of idling on Clean Air Action Days. "
I could not find any reference to that claim by "green car congress",
at any Oregon government web site. If there's anyone that can,
it'd be helpful to have the URL. A limit of "10 seconds of idling",
is downright idiotic. Even 10 minutes, is too little. It takes longer
than that to air up a leaky MCI. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 6:15 am: | |
Cold cranking , huge amperage and low batteries are a starters enimy.
The 1/2 turn it takes to start a well diesel, every few minuets should do very little to wear a starter out.
The engine is hot , the batteries as good as they get , and the crank time is low with lots of cooling between cranks.
Big Deal?
Many stick coaches with shot clutch brakes will shut down to get into first.
FAST FRED |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 9:16 am: | |
Well, the surprise to me (and apparently to many others) was that in testing the battery and starter were essentially unaffected by stoplight shutdown and restart, and that engine life was dramatically increased. As Fred says, the energy to restart a warmed engine with a hot battery is almost nothing. |
Bob Shafer (Michigander_bob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 10:43 am: | |
I'm sure their using some type of hybrid-electric starting system. Start and stop traffic kills fuel milage and this is where hybrids shine. In long distance, high speed driving, hybrids don't do any better than a non-hybrid. GM has had a hybrid starting system available for a couple of years now in their pick-up trucks and will soon be available in their cars. Here's a link that explaines how the system works.
Bob 4104-2346
Flint, Mi |
Bob Shafer (Michigander_bob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 10:45 am: | |
sorry....forgot the link...DUH...
http://www.hybridcars.com/silverado-sierra.html
Bob 4104-2346
Flint, Mi |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:53 pm: | |
uuhhhhh
Bob's link:
"But That’s Not All.
Act Now and Get a Free Clean-Burning Generator.
While the 10 percent gain in fuel economy is the main
selling point, the Silverado and Sierra hybrids have a bonus
feature: they act as power generators, with two
conventional, three-prong plug-ins under the rear seat, and
two more in the back of the bed. The four 120-volt, 20 amp
electrical auxiliary power outlets can provide power to
electric saws, grinders, hairdryers or laptops. The juice is
activated while the truck is running. And with the shifter
in PARK, the driver can choose to turn the truck into a
stationary generator and walk away with the keys in his
pocket. The power supply circuits are protected by a ground
fault detection system so overloads and short circuits can
be avoided. According to G.M., the new hybrid pickups could
maintain power for up to 32 hours non-stop before needing to
fill the tank. (They shut off before the gas tank is
completely drained, so drivers won’t be stranded.)"
Holy carp. Does it do windows?
Yeah, all this is great.... But apples and apricots....
FF (and all others) always insist how important it is, not to
run a DD too cool. It's got to be run to temperature, or it'll
prematurely fail..... And how idling will not bring it up to
sufficient temp.
With that in mind, how in all *&^% can you get any 2 stroke
up to temp, if you're shutting it down every 1/4 mile or less?
NY City streets are one-tenth mile apart. A city block is one-tenth
mile. There are lights at each block. Yeah, they're timed for the
avenue (north/south traffic), but you'll usually end up stopping
at every fifth one. The streets are not timed, so you will more
than likely stop at every one.
On rt 192, through Melbourne, Fl.. You will more than likely
stop at every light, unless you're very lucky. Maybe you can
win the McDonald sweepstakes as well? The lights are less
than 1/2 mile apart.
I do not believe shutting down a two stroke DD every time
it is stopped at a traffic control, is good for the engine.
If it is perfectly fine, as some are saying, then I suppose
I can breath easy the next time I run it for a few minutes,
just for the hell of it. Or when I want to show off how
great it starts, time after time, after time, after time...
Oh yeah. Got to be good! |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
Not tested, but I would be willing to bet that a diesel sitting dead for say 3 minutes at a light cools off LESS than one at idle with a fan blowing on it and a water pump circulating thru the radiator. Anyone that tried to leave a truck at idle all night in sub freezing temp can attest to the fact that you will freeze with the heater going!
The testing that was done however you must understand was for over the road fleets, which seldom see many stop lights, for the most part it is grinding along for hours on end without even shifting if you are headed west.
If all miles were in town, I would guess that the statistics would be different. I think the largest improvement of maintenance in the tests was no idle time at snack stops, fuel stops, overnight sleep stops, and rest time. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 5:42 pm: | |
Dontx,
It has been tested, idling and circulating the water through a radiator is the proper way to cool down an overheated engine, not due to poor cooling system condition. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 8:20 pm: | |
Well, Don...
"If all miles were in town, I would guess that the statistics
would be different. "
The first two posts set the theme:
1. "I am visiting Japan and it is interesting to me that all the
transit buses shut the engine off at every stop light. "
2. "When visiting Athens, Greece we saw the same thing. Even the
taxi's shut down at stop lights"
I've been directing my comments (opinions) to the concept
that DD 2 stroke owners here, might eventually be required
to do that, and that it may be a "good thing" to do so.
I doubt anyone would recommend driving off full bore with
a DD 2 stroke, the split second after starting the engine (warmed
up or not). And that's exactly what we would be doing with an
automatic transmission, traffic stop after traffic stop.
For an engine and drive train engineered for that type of duty, fine.
But for an old DD? |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 2:25 am: | |
John, once the engine's up to temperature, if it's generating insufficient heat the thermostats shut down to keep the core temp up. With the heat rejection of the DD 2 strokes, they'll easily stay at temp.
Why are you "stuck on stopping" (Honors to Gen Honore!) With the old equipment, they won't be operating it that way! |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 6:11 pm: | |
Our post(people) with the USPS are required to shut off the motors of their little mail carrier trucks at EVERY mailbox on their route. I too was worried about their starters and batts... but some mucky-muck consultant probably reviewed all of this before issuing the mandate.
I'd LOVE to get ahold of such data... that all of us taxpayers paid for.
My buddy has a Honda hybrid that shuts off, also, and will only idle when the A/C compressor demands it. He's had it for almost two years, so it must have started itself thousands of times.
So... When in doubt, turn off those motors! Pass this on to your friendly trucker buddies out there.
bb |
Jarlaxle
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 6:34 pm: | |
Here, the mail carriers don't shut of their engines unless they are away from the truck, at least in cool weather. My local carrier (delivers in an old GMC StepVan he owns) starts it at the PO loading dock, and shuts it off when he gets home.
UPS, OTOH, does shut down at every stop.
The hybrids don't have regular starters...the electric assist motors start the gas engine. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 11:06 am: | |
Marc, A 8V92 will not maintain temperature at idle unless the ambient air is up in the 60's or higher. I even covered my radiator to prevent cold air being sucked in and blowing on the engine and it would not maintain temperature in the 30's or 40's. Even on the road I could not maintain temperature of the engine with the ambient being low. And yes, the thermostats were good.
Richard |
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