| Author | Message | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Rating: N/A |
Hey everybody here we go again. I have four Trogan 125 6V house batteries, is there any reason I cannot just add 2 more to the system? I have a 2500 Trace also. I just feel it would work better with 2 more batteries. Don't know much about it but thot a little more life would be better. Thanks much Larry 4905-831 | ||
| herman Rating: N/A |
It's not a matter of can/can't, it's just not a good idea. The more parallel strings a battery bank has, the more cells and interconnections there are to manage, so that's just a bother. More importantly, as the number of strings increases, greater the spread between the strongest and weakest strings, due to normal unit tolerances, is likely to also increase. This spread will result in unequal dis/charging between the strings, which will age them unevenly, exacerbating the problem, and in time leading to early failure of the bank. The more strings, the worse the problem. For that reason, adding a new string to an existing array is not recommended, as the difference between the new string and the existing one(s) will likely be greater than the normal unit tolearances, thus giving you an even bigger head start on premature failure. Better to, when it comes time to retire the existing array, replace it with a single series string of cells of the desired capacity. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The above is theoretically correct but the age difference must be large ti have a real detrimental result.. The difference is NOT so much calender dates , but rather how much life you have used from the batts , how many 50% or deeper discharges,without prompt recharge. If your present set has been flattened , overcharged , run without water,overheated to bulged cases , a new pair added is a waste of time. Adding a new pair will probably have the effect that the new batts work harder , so at replacement time ALL 6 will need tossing together. The series parallel hookup would work best , and installing the new batts at the begining if the strings will have them work harder. Its not unheard of to rearange the batts position in the set annually to share the loading. FAST FRED | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
But then, being the devil's avocado, why not? All the blah blah blah of why it won't work. On the positive side, it has a good chance of working fine. A very good chance... If you wire your strings together properly (positive wire coming off at battery "group" A and negative coming off at group C, and listen to Fred as to how to hook them up (three sets of two in paralell), just do it. The worst that can happen is that you'll have to spend slightly less than a tank of fuel, on a new set of batteries fairly soon and try again. The best that will happen is it will work fine for a long time. You'll never know if you don't give it a try... | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
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I agree with Gary, there are too many guys on this board anxious to say right away that something won't work and usually they haven't even tried it. My method is to try it and find out. | ||
| herman Rating: N/A |
Gus, I'm curious; have you ever tried Russian Roulette? If not, why not? | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca Rating: N/A |
Well "in theory" I would speculate that the fun and excitement of such a game as RR could lead to very serious pain that would last a life time and no more than that life time. Not trying to be negative or nay saying on RR, just saying that is the first unwanted side effect of trying such a exercise that I can imagine. Not saying it couldn't be "exhilarating" or "exciting" or don't do it or try it as surviving would be much greater than hiting that one in six chances where you loss. Just saying this is both the positive and negatives that come to mind! Hey were did it go, got to go look for my mind as it seems to have wandered off again. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Profound, herman . Simply profound! HAR!!!! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
TH - It's not "win or lose", it's how you play the game! | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca Rating: N/A |
and on that I rest my case for NON-COMPETE | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
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Larry, As you can see there are the usual negative theories backed up by no actual experiences and a bunch of one liners not related to the question. The board is overly blessed with these comments. Even if you buy multiple new batteries from the same source they are often not well matched so I wouldn't worry about that part. | ||
| herman Rating: N/A |
Gus, Did I, or anyone else, ever state that I/they had no experience in the matter? For that matter, what exactly have you brought to the table? I see no recounting of experience, and no other presentation of substance. Rather, I see only sniping. Do note that Larry explicitly asked for "reasons", not a sharing of experiences. I for one have been directly responsive to his request (and nobody has argued against my rationale, btw), you have not. By the way, have you ever taken a long walk on a short pier? Try it! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Ya'know Gusc... I really don't give a rats tush about batteries, who uses 'em, or how... However, if a guy asks about adding some new ones to the string of his present (and already used/depleted and re-charged) bank, the technical aspects of doing so, should be presented. Ya'see Gusc, without "the usual negative theories ", all the reader would have are comments telling him to "go ahead; life's great; life's good". And.... Regarding your comment: "the usual negative theories" ? Exactly how did you determine that it's simply a "theory", that the batteries should all be within a set tolerance/voltage of one another if they are to function with the longevity intended? It seems to me (and fairly safe to assume?) that it is only your own theory, that batteries can be added at any time, to any type of battery bank, with total disregard for the age and history of the rest of the bank. In fact, Mr. Gusc.... I do believe you can find all that information, and more, right here on the WWW, that will describe the importance of keeping things well balanced. Gary summed things up perfectly: "The worst that can happen is that you'll have to spend slightly less than a tank of fuel, on a new set of batteries fairly soon and try again" Keep in mind what a tank of fuel costs now, and what it soon will cost.. You could save the guy a bunch of cash, just telling him what's right, instead of how much you hate the new posters to this forum. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
I don't want to get in a fight, but offer a general comment. Adding more batteries is good. Whenever we have lots of battery capacity life is good. But....ya' all knew this was coming right?....when you start having trouble with batteries you can go slightly crazy trying to diagnose them when they are in a set or multiple sets and you are tapping into 12V and 24V. My point is there is some validity to adding batteries as long as there is also an awareness that mismatched, or differences in batteries can create a trouble shooting nightmare. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
I have to weigh in (slightly) with Gusc this time, gentlemen. Dave Smead in his 12V series ADVOCATES matching batteries by manufacturer, size, AH capacity, age, and even production lot number. He goes a step further advocating a series of initial, baseline and capacity tests, even cell to cell on specific density, with an aim towards matching the batts as close as possible. Anybody that can run a set of Lead-acid batts for 13+ years - which still perform at or near original capacity should be worth listening to and probably emulating Marc Bourget | ||
| herman Rating: N/A |
Marc, the material you cite, which plainly emphasizes careful matching of units, argues against his 'case', if "piss on pessimists: try it and find out" can be called any kind of a case, that is. And, equally clearly, adding batteries to an array already in service is a failure to match on age and lot number, directly, and on capacity indirectly (by virtue of capacity changing as a function of age). Man, there's some pow'ful smoke goin' round... | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
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I think I started a verbal war. The coments are are all stored and reduced to what I feel a uasable plan. There are pros and cons to everything we do, and Thank God we live in the good old US of A. Everybody Thank You Very Much.... Hope I meet everyone at Rickreall this summer Larry 4905-831 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Better read the thread again, Marc. (w/out the Scotch) HAR! Everything you've cited in your preceding comments, are in total opposition to what Mr. Gusc has stated, and strongly bolster Herman's argument. HEY Larry.... No fight, this is business as usual! We all get our turn in the tank... I've had mine (a lot). No biggie. It appears you've got a 12v bus, so adding two more 6v batts may not be bad.... -if- the existing batteries are OK. We had two group 31 deep cycle batteries for the "house system" in our Winnebago. One of them kept going bad... After the third replacement of the same battery, I re-tested both. I found the one I thought was the good one, had two weak cells. It was enough to cause the charging system to overcharge the new battery in it's attempt to charge the weak one. I replaced both and that cured the problem. What the guys are saying, is if you're adding new batteries to an existing bank, you may end up replacing the entire bank sooner than you planned. Maybe, maybe not... But it's something worth taking into consideration... | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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My actual experience, in working with large banks of batteries with as many as 50 in a string to obtain 600 Volts DC was that if a string was a couple of years old and we had a failure we just replaced the one 12 volt battery. There could have been as many as 200 baterys connected in series parallel to get the dezired capacity. Again, my actual experience was that this never caused a problem of any kind. The new battery voltage may have been .1 volt lower or higher than the others, but that was never a problem. I had hundreds of systems opoerating and this was common practice on my equipment as well as thousands of other systems manufactured by other companies. So you guys can take your theroetical data and do what you want, but real actual experience says that it is perfectly OK to replace one battery in the system with a new one. Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
John, TMG (the mis-interpretive guy) If you read for content, I only "slightly" weighed in with Gusc. Without focusing on particular posts and posters, I don't think that there's an arugment with Gusc's first observation: "there are the usual negative theories backed up by no actual experiences and a bunch of one liners not related to the question. The board is overly blessed with these comments." Gusc's closing comment only reinforces what I had to add, Gusc said: "Even if you buy multiple new batteries from the same source they are often not well matched so I wouldn't worry about that part." I went on to add a constructive comment and advice (as opposed to Gusc's APPARENT submissive resignation of "that's the way it's gonna be, so grab your ankles, etc.")(Not a "diss" Gusc, just for contrast my point!) I feel that it is prudent to take the effort to match the batts to a degree not mentioned by anyone else. I actually feel Herman is pretty much "up" on this area but I didn't want to fall into Gusc's first categorization. No, scotch here, but I'd make sure you're stirring your drink rather than caca on this BB! LOL! Onward and Upward | ||
| herman Rating: N/A |
Richard, I'm not surprised that you did not encounter much trouble, given a) the high 'aspect ratio' of the arrays you worked with, i.e. the high series count vs. the low parallel count, and b) that, if I understand correctly, they were used principally in float service vs. routine deep cycle service. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Marc - I have got to learn to do "two-liners", just to keep Guscie happy. "Stirring caca" (har de har har!) (I luv it) | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
As Gary said near the beginning of this thread, what is the big issue with batteries? When they fail, you have to replace them. If you want to replace one or replace the whole set, that is your decision. Batteries are one of the cheapest parts of owning a bus conversion. One tire or one tank of fuel will cost more than the average batteries. A bus is an expensive vehicle to maintain properly, so don't sweat the small things. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I just paid $225 (tax incl) for two group 31 Interstate batteries. The 8Ds I replaced were over $120 each. An 8D deep cycle was quoted over $300, and the deep cycle group 31 agm was quoted to be over $200. When I imagine having to replace 6, my thoughts go to using all Propane instead of all electric.. The thought of having to replace the bank prematurely, because I didn't heed the warnings of those that know more than I, is a cost I'd rather not take. There ain't nuttin' cheap about batteries, Stan... Not in my budget, maybe in yours...(?) | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"When I imagine having to replace 6, my thoughts go to using all Propane instead of all electric.." If you want to live a nice quiet diesel fume free life camping for extender periods , you're getting the IDEA! Welcome to the GOOD LIFE! FAST FRED | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
JohnMC9: Before you spent your $225.00, did you pick through the stores inventory to get get two batteries that had all cells matched and both batteries matched? This is the advice given by the knowldgeable people responding on this thread. If you didn't do that, you may have to replace those batteries sooner than you think. If your budget doesn't include the cost of having an engine replaced when you are 1000 miles from home, then you are in the wrong hobby. Batteries should be the least of your concern. A lot of advice on this board comes from wannabes and people who use a bus shell for a lawn decoration. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Amusing! Re: "If your budget doesn't include the cost of having an engine replaced when you are 1000 miles from home, then you are in the wrong hobby. Batteries should be the least of your concern." Some of us have money, because we've taken care to make the right decisions at the right time.... Like insuring a battery bank isn't going to deplete itself, or become overcharged, due to one bad battery. When a person wastes cash replacing things for reasons that could have been avoided, they usually don't have enough left for an "emergency". I do not seriously believe anyone here has set up a "budget" to pay for a new replacement engine if and when it's needed. Are you setting money aside for that purpose? It must be great to have a slush fund specifically for things like that! Most of us here, Stan.... count our blessings and do what we have to, to save our hard-earned cash. Some of us save money by taking preventive measures, and heeding the advice of those that inform us that we will waste our cash by taking a careless approach. Regarding this topic? With deep cycle batteries in particular, and under the usage campers put them through..... small imbalances will always exist, but adding new batteries to an already used and aged battery bank, could shorten the life of the entire bank. That equates to a possible waste of cash, Stan. Cash that could go to tires, fuel, or a brake job. What's really amusing, Stan... Is that you are the one that continually complains that "newbies" don't listen to the "experts" and old-timers that have experience. Herman's on target. Marc produced corroborating material that underscores Herman's explanation. What's your beef today, Stan? Is Gusc putting you up to this? (Ahhhh... har har har) Life's too damned short for this nonsense. | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca Rating: N/A |
Has anyone noticed that sucking on batteries (both electrodes at once)is much the same effect as chewing on boiled cans of spinach, "make me muscles' twixt , athathaahthta". I am think much like MC9J on the efficiency thing regardless of budget surpluses; as if we were practise building interplanetary self contain transport habitats and there were no Canadian Tires stores or DD dealers between solar systems. The small things add up to a much more functional conscience and spare cash for the big things not to mention the sustainabliity factor being reached for. How was that for a seemingly irrelevant collections of one liners>annoying< or no??? Then try this, anyone remember that Andy Griffin SciFi series where his team build a spaceship from his salvage yard and went about beach coming the near heavens for derelict satellites and junk for salvage. There was a true example of the three RRR`s! | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Herman, yes they were used primarily in float service but every time there was a power failure, sometimes several times a week, they were discharged very low generally. It was not unusual to replace a few over a period of years, but it never seemed to affect the overall life of the overall string. The defective batteries were generally replaced under warranty for the first couple or three years. Battery warranty was typically 5, 10 or 20 years but my experience was that we generally got about 75% expected life from a battery bank before we started having failures after the initial failures experienced during the early part of the life cycle. Again, FWIW, we routinely replaced defective batteries in a battery set with no adverse affects. Richard | ||
| herman Rating: N/A |
Richard, I should have added c) a good preventative inspection/maintenance program.... And, since the unequal aging thing manifests statistically e.g. as decreased overall array lifespan, vs. via discrete hard failures, I'd take issue with your assertion that there were no adverse effects. To support that statement, you'd need, for a baseline, the ability to create arrays, in statistically significant quantities, that never had any problems; if one could do that, then one would always do that.... It sounds like you witnessed the classic "bathtub curve", where you get a (relatively) high initial failure rate, a.k.a. 'infant mortality', then a long period of low failure rate / high reliability, then a gradual increase in failure rate as the assemblage approaches the end of its design lifetime. Replacements made due to infant mortality do well because they are 'close' to the same age as the existing units; replacements made at the other end of the bathtub curve don't *need* to last very long, as the wholesale replacement of the array is not far off. And, replacement of randomly situated units to maintain array functionality is one thing; addition of capacity at midlife or later, typically done via placing new units into an additional parallel string(s), is another. One might well have somewhat better luck by 'shuffling the deck', so that the increased array has the same number of new/old units in each parallel string. If the parallel strings are crosstied, then you'd want to arrange, for each parallel string, identical placement of new/old units within the series ordering. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
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Richard, Thanks for an intelligent comment based on actual experience. My comments were clear that I hadn't done this type of connecting but wouldn't hesitate to at least see if it works before saying it won't work. Evidently I stepped on some sensitive toes and got some juvenile comments as a result. Our comments are just advice, not gospel, and if someone disagrees with us that is the way the game is played. There is no need to take offense at a different opinion. | ||
| Martha Stewart Rating: N/A |
Excerpted from The Trollhouse Cookbook. Pest-o: Prepare 200g each of: - dry basil leaves, destemmed, - garlic cloves, peeled, - finely grated parmigiana reggiano cheese, and - pine nuts Place 250cc of extra virgin olive oil in a blender or preferably a food processor; add garlic, then pine nuts, then basil. Additional oil, as well as extensive manual intervention, may be needed, particularly when using a blender. Prolonged mixing may substantially heat ingredients, promoting oxidation; either prechill ingredients or pause mixing and chill mixing bowl. Mix in the cheese; this may be done in a suitable bowl, rather than the appliance. Transfer into multiple sealable containers for storage; refrigerate or freeze. Ice cube trays can be used for portion control; after frozen, transfer to sealable bags for storage. Taste will be quite 'vibrant' initially; flavors will marry up with a day or two's refrigerated storage. Product surface will oxidize readily on exposure to air; crystalline vitamin C can be used to retard this (~1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per batch, added to the olive oil), but may impart a sourness to the taste. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Ahhh, Gusc - You said: "see if it works before saying it won't work. " All Herman said (and I, along with most, agree), is: "It's not a matter of can/can't, it's just not a good idea. " That's the whole point of this "debate"! Sure, anyone can do whatever they please, but it's good to know what will likely happen, well in advance. It's threads like these, that takes some of the gamble out of the "hobby"; It serves to save some of us, our hard-earned cash. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
...and threads like these seem to be populated with prolific armchair experts who have lots of time to type on their computers but apparently don't have much real world experience, though they certainly have a LOT of opinion. Too bad... it makes it very difficult for the original poster to figure out what a real solution might be, due to all the fussybutt arguing over what might or might not be good ideas... Just my mood today with the polite filters turned way down. Larry, are you still even here? Hopefully you got some decent ideas out of all of this... hopefully... (Message edited by boogiethecat on April 22, 2006) | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca Rating: N/A |
Welcome aboard Martha S, so good to see you here, and all those nay sayers said Sam Walker could never get you on board. Welcome to the board Sweety! I keep trying to get DonnyT on board, but he is just to shy to make mistakes in public. Even went as far as offering him a bowl of my mildest sewage as bait. The lime light will do that to ya, but in the end you end up with a hide as thick as we reptilian dogs. | ||
| RCBishop Rating: N/A |
sheeeeeeesh...! FWIW RCB | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Aww, come'on, Gary... Armchair what? You said: "The worst that can happen is that you'll have to spend slightly less than a tank of fuel, on a new set of batteries fairly soon and try again. The best that will happen is it will work fine for a long time. You'll never know if you don't give it a try..." Some of us don't have the cash to experiment and fail, so we come here and see what the "experts" have to say. And when the comments (as yours) seem to imply there's a gamble.... that it may cost us a few bucks sooner than later if it doesn't work out... We can see where it'd be better not to do it. Those that want to chance it, can. So re-reading your own comments, and noting those (like me) that agree with your suggestion that it can be a gamble... where's the beef? Just as Herman said: "It's not a matter of can/can't, it's just not a good idea. " Not if you don't want to gamble and chance losing, that is.... | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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