| Author | Message | ||
| daniel grant (Dan27)
Rating: N/A |
Hi I would be grateful for some advice concerning a bus conversion. Firstly I’m 17 and have little knowledge of mechanics, although have some family friends who are very experienced mechanics who I could call upon if all goes wrong. I am quite competent in woodwork and am currently learning metalwork with an electric arc welder and an angle grinder. I really like the idea of buying, converting and taking friends on holiday in either a coach or preferably a double decker bus as I think that this would provide almost double the space inside the bus, giving me more room to work with. But I am the kind of person who can become, shall we say overly enthusiastic about something, and get into a project that is to hard or that I know little about, so before embarking on this project in getting a little back ground information. Really all that I’m asking for is to know how hard it is to convert a bus/coach? How much work and therefore time does it take? Do you recommend either getting a double decker or a coach? The only reason I would go for a coach over a double decker is because I think that coaches are designed more specifically for travelling longer distances whereas double deckers are primarily city vehicles and therefore could be unsuitable for the holidays that I dream of taking some of my friends on (500 miles tops)is this the case or could a double decker travel these larger distances? My basic plan is to buy a cheap mechanically sound second hand double decker (or coach) for around £500-1000 (instead of a first car) then make a VERY VERY simple conversion, stripping out all of the down stairs seats and most of the upstairs seats. Downstairs would be some sofas at the back, and a SIMPLE kitchen and bathroom at the front. Up stairs, seats in the front and luggage storage and sleeping areas at the back, food would be eaten outside or on the sofas. I have some other more absurd ideas but ill stick with the basics for now. We already have some sofas and a sofa bed I could use, the shower and toilet I have, we have an old gas cooker I could use. I think that I might have a slightly disillusioned view of how easy this could be, obviously I don't expect it to be all plain sailing, but as I know of no-one who has converted a bus I have no-one to speak for advice and ask these questions to. Please any advice on anything I have said will be greatly appreciated, especially any negative thoughts. Also any advice on things that I haven’t thought through would be really helpful. As you are the experts, if you think from your past experience that I have very little hope of completing this project I simply wont start, id like some advice from the pro's before I go any further. Thanks for your help. Dan P.S I have my parents consent to commence this project as soon as I complete the Go-kart in working on with a friend! | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
Hi Dan, I think you will find most on this board are from the US and would be unfamiliar with British Coaches and Double Deckers. with that being said......I saw a program where a guy was using a Double decker as a motorhome. His fuel mileage was aweful 3-5 mpg...and with European Fuel prices thats even worse....not sure what they are presently, but I bet you'd be super happy to pay our 3.00 a gal (US) Another problem he had was clearances on overpasses, sign posts tree limbs etc. Another issue is the High center of gravity a Double decker has..... Have no idea what a used bus otf any sort brings anywhere in europe. | ||
| Jay Gerlick
Rating: N/A |
I would start smaller, not a double decker. My current bus is an MCI 9. This bus required no work to make road worthy. My first bus a 1947 pd 3751 needed lots of work to get on the road, but with a supportive father(who also owns a body and mechanical shop) and lots of hard work it was quite fun. Problem, it needed almost constant repair. what could I expect I traded a 25" councel TV for the bus. I would say save your money and buy a reliable shell before you dive into something. Also plan on it taking twice the time you estimate. I have done the "tin tent" camping while the conversion is in progress. So far this conversion has taken 3years and it's about 75% done, but I have enjoyed it in what ever state it was in. Find some friends with similar interests it makes the whole process lots more enjoyable. Happy bussing | ||
| james dean boggs (Jd_boggs)
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Daniel, You came to the right place for advice. This is the first and only board I use to get expert advice. But you have to watch out for the experts on this board. Some are more expert than others! When I needed advice I asked the question here and got more advise than I needed  Take all the advice you get then throw out the silly ones and "far out" comments. Then finaly you can focus on the trend of opinions. Those are the ones you want. The first rule in converting a bus is that there are no rules! The only rules applicable are safety and legal required by your transportation department. I would stick to a coach for now to apply your talents there. Find one that is mechanically sound ie: strong running engine and tranny. Must have very good brakes and steering. If you find one of these then all you need now is time and lots of £. Remember this is YOUR baby you can shape it exacly like Daniel wants it. And not how the neighbor wants it. Unless of course the neighbor is going to invest 5,000£ into the project. Good luck and check under my profile a link to my conversion project. It has detail photos on how I did certain things. Also chech other poster on this board, they too have how to links. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Daniel, I get the impression that you must be in the U.K. from the money indicator. I would look around and see what buses are on your local roads and take notes. Then look around to see who services those buses or what brokers are in your area. Many times just taking the time to talk to people will get you the information you need. Once you have some ideas of what is available locally that you can get service on then work towards your goal. Also check with any of the Caravan brokers and ask them what they would do on a limited budget. As for the double-deckers I would avoid them due to limitations of being built too large (tall) to navigate many places. Keep in mind also the licence fee's, driver requirements and certificates and insurance you might need to operate your conversion. If your plans would include travels abroad what is required for that... Will it fit in the chunnel or need to use the ferry system. Here in the U.S. things are different and we tend to be lax in many things to do with recreational vehicles. Travel is exceptionally easy no matter what your bus looks like. | ||
| Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
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Hello Daniel, Glad to see that I'm not the only youngster doing this... My first advice to you is to find a chassis that you can work with - in the space you have available to you. A project like this can very easily be measured in years (unless your name is Capt. Ron... still gotta tip my hat...). Take a look at your financial situation and the laws regarding heavy vehicles in your area. From my experience, European traffic laws are more stringent as to what you can do on public roads than the laws over on this side of the pond. You should go talk to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency in your area. I think you even have to be a certain age to drive heavy vehicles over there (21+). One infallible truth with this hobby is: "big toys, big bills". Also, if you're planning on having a single or double-decker bus, make sure you have somewhere to put a 12-15 meter rig. The good news: The structures of busses are usually designed for decades of trouble free use, and can easily acquire over 1 million miles (about 1.6 million KM). The electrical and drive systems are usually heavy duty and can support other more household-like functions than typically found on transport applications. Seating space can be exchanged for storage space, cooking, sleeping, plumbing, entertainment, etc. The bad news: busses are usually tall and heavy, which requires certain (not necessarily special - but at least specific) skill to correctly and safely operate. Consideration must be given to the correct distribution of systems and furniture/appliances to ensure that the vehicle maintains its designed drivability. If your construction requires removing or relocating hardware and mechanical components, you will need to first understand what it is you are fooling with so that you can guarantee the functionality and safety of the vehicle when finished. You will learn a lot about the mechanicals on the bus you buy after the fact - most times the hard way and at your expense. If you are just looking for a "party bus", make sure you have somewhere to park it if it breaks down and you can't afford the repairs (getting a bus out of impound is not usually cheap). Talk to bus nuts - in your area and over here. We are usually a lively comical bunch that will help you make light of any trouble you run into (and it's always worth the verbal pat on the back when you get something right...). You will typically find stern words when safety is in question, but don't assume that means we don't like you, it's quite the opposite. Omnibus's were recently pulled from service in a very public fashion, so I'm sure that it wouldn't be too hard to get your hands on one. Besides, you can always plan your dream bus while you build your current one - take your time and make it your way and you will end up with a better result than most professional busses. Cheers! -Tim | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "I think that I might have a slightly disillusioned view of how easy this could be" And the nightmare begins.... 1. Make sure you have your own property to work on this project. In my case, I rent. The owner of the storage facility has changed his policy, reducing the size of the spaces to 10'. I can no longer open a bay door, thanks to the 102" RV next to me. The electric power has been rewired/reduced, so operating a Skilsaw is out of the question. 2. Be aware that you will need help to do some jobs. If you are all alone (as I am), jobs that take two people, become quite the challenge. It not only takes longer, but can cause some grief, when you find you simply cannot finish the specific task in one day (or until you find help to do so). Keep in mind, that the help you may acquire, may not be accustomed to taking orders. Do you want things done your way, or some other way? 3. Understand that a bus is a piece of heavy equipment. You cannot use conventional methods to jack it up, or suspend it. The weight of the bus is unforgiving. There is little, if any, room under a bus with deflated air bags. There are no "oops", there is SQUASH. The ground under the bus must be stable enough for a bus. And jacking it, assigns all the weight to one specific area. You will need to know the specific bus's jacking points, and blocking points. There can be no shortcuts to that. No (0) improvising. 4. However long you thought the conversion should take, multiply by 100. I don't mean to disillusion you, but doing the conversion is to get involved with each and every moment the bus has been "alive". It's akin to adopting an old, old, very frikkin old, man... maybe suffering from Alzheimer and a few major strokes.. with wet pants. You're about to attempt a resurrection! Are you up to it? (you know what happened the last time.....) Lotsa' luck, from across the pond! | ||
| Greg Peterson Rating: N/A |
Dan your unique guy at 17 and wanting to convert a bus. When I was 17 I wanted fast sports cars and even faster women. In the U.S. a double Decker bus would not be a “Chick” magnet. The only guy that ever looked cool in that was James Bond and he had to be chased by guys with machine guns, run the bus on two wheels, and then knock the top half off by going under a low bridge. Most guys that are doing a bus are much older and some have families that go camping. I think I am having a Mid-life crisis or something and just wanted to convert a bus. (Getting a new wife would be too expensive). Some guys wait to long to convert the bus and die before it is done. You see these partial done buses on ebay being sold by the Widow. You will find out that to make the bus look good it will take much money and even more labor. Most buses are started and never finished. Keep us all up to date on your progress. If you actually finish this project you are an amazing young man. Good Luck and always have fun with the hobby | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Rating: N/A |
Daniel, My sister lives in England, and I was joking with her that I could travel Europe with my bus. A few thousand dollars to ship it, and I wouldn't have to pay for hotels. She warned me that I wouldn't be able to get within 10 miles of her house, and definitely not throught the city, because of the old narrow roads. She then continued to tease me that I'm going to become a traveller, in the negative meaning. Of course, she started sending me pictures of beat up old school buses, and the whole run of jokes. She's over that now, I think. Obviously, buses do drive in England, but you'll have to be careful of where you go. Be aware of the width, height, and turning requirements. Have you ever driven large vehicles? They are different. Not to say it's impossible, I started driving large vehicles when I was 16. You may be happier with a single level bus, for the height inside. Check out several before you settle on the "right" one. It's perfectly possible that you will still be in love with the first one you saw, but at least you can justify wanting it when people say "why didn't you....?" Doug has a point about the center of gravity. Since it's so tall, and I believe narrower than the buses that most of us are using, it'll tend to lean, and if you have too much weight on the top, it could easily fall over on a hard turn. I'd say, if you go with the double-decker, put as much weight as you can as low as possible. Put your water tanks as low as you can, and keeping them full will be helpful. If you use a large array of batteries, again, keep them low. I dug around on eBay.co.uk, and found a few interesting buses. This is more what us Americans would be looking for: 4633103899 This one looks cool. 4633370409 .. but these seem more of what you're looking for 4632851811 4634426756 This one may be better, because it's already partially done. I'd look seriously at this: 4633136189 As for how hard it will be, or how much it will cost, it depends on what you're trying to do. A bunch of teenagers going to concerts, partying, or whatever, you may be very happy throwing a few old couches in, and a simple bathroom and kitchen, with no other decorations. I would have been very happy with that when I was younger. Most of us are trying to make ours into a full home environment, where you can barely tell the difference between our bus and a nice small house. I believe just about everyone on this site is in America, but the people on this board are very nice, and will offer lots of advice. We're all trying to do the same thing, with variations in the theme. Check out the links area (on the left side of the screen), and click "personal web pages". You'll probably be very inspired. Don't get too depressed looking at mine, there are only two days worth of work put into it in those photos. | ||
| daniel grant (Dan27)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all of your advice. Yes i do live in England, i forgot to say that, also ive asked my school bus driver about licences and he said that i dont need a special licence as long as i dont charge people to ride on the bus. i live in Sufolk on a small holding and have plenty of space on the driveway to store either a coach or a double decker. I am keen on doing the conversion as cheaply as possible like JW Smythe touched apon im certainly not thinking of decorating it to the same level as my home or even a caravan. im hoping that by keeping it very simple ill be able to keep the cost and construction time down. it will just be a means or transporting some teenage friends around, so im sure that they will feel right at home if it isn't finnished to a high standard. how do the electrics work in a conversion, is it a battery system, taken straight from the buses battery, or a generater? im a little confused by the talk about jacking it up or suspending it. im intending to buy a sound shell and only work on the inside, is there something that im missing out? Thanks again for all the advice you've all been very helpful, Dan | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
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Dear Dan, You have at least made the first step towards making a successful conversion, deciding how you will be using your bus. Knowing that will help you make other decisions down the road. Most conversions on this side of the pond tend to be rolling homes with all of the systems one finds in a normal house--toilets, showers, bedrooms with queen or king size beds, kitchens with ranges, microwave ovens, and coffee makers, living rooms with plasma screen t.v.'s and DVD/VCR's, HVAC systems that heat and cool 24/7 to a constant temperature regardless of the outside temperature, and all manner of toys only limited to the imagination and wallet of the builder. On the other hand some have built conversions that are very simple in comparison. The owner/builders of these conversions are continually trying to find ways to make their pride and joy more self sufficient while still retaining some of the more necessary creature comforts. These conversions are used by people who like to boondock, a term used to describe going off of the beaten track out into the wilderness. They are able to, just with the supplies onboard, live comfortably for days and days without having to restock supplies of food or water or empty waste tanks. Regardless of what you put into the conversion you will be starting with problems as John MC9 has indicated. Your conversion will be based on someone elses used, and in many cases very well used bus. Sometimes the use has reached the point of used up. In other words, if you keep your conversion for any length of time you will have to learn to make all of the necessary repairs to keep your bus roadworthy. Basic things like changing the oil, lubricating the chassis, and adjusting the brakes are all going to require you to get underneath the bus on a regular basis. If you don't you won't be able to afford to keep your bus. Hence the need to learn how to jack or suspend your bus safely. As it has been stressed before, whatever you do with your conversion you need to keep safety at the forefront of your decision making process--safety for you as you work on the conversion and the safety of others as you drive down the road. On this board many threads have been generated about tires. This is due in large part to the fact tires are a wear item that will need to be replaced at some point, usually at dark thirty in the morning when it is raining a very long way away from home. If the bus you purchase has an air suspension you will need to learn how to block the bus up. When an air suspension deflates the bus will drop down very close to the ground. It is very difficult to breathe with 40,000 pounds dropped on your chest. Electrical systems come in many variations and styles. The load (how many lights and electrical applicances you will be using) will determine how large and sophisticated a system you will have to design. If your conversion is relatively basic and the only load you have will be a few lights you can set up a house battery system that can be charged by the bus electrical system. You will need to make sure the house system is seperate from the bus system so the starting system will not go dead and leave you stranded somewhere. The decisions you make that determine the "finished" (finsihed being a relative term) product will determine your "final" cost. The more you think before you start spending money the less money you will actually spend. Doing things right will cost less in the long run than doing things twice or three times. Again, utilize the experience of this board. Any problems you encounter are identical to problems already experienced by many of the people on this board. Take care and keep us posted on your progress. Mark O. | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
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Daniel, Mark has it right on the electrical. If you want to go with REAL simple, you could go with 12v lights throughout the bus, assuming the bus has a 12v system. Mine is 24v, and has a 1KW inverter for the 12v system. That would be sufficient to run several small lights in the bus without headaches. If I parked say all weekened with a lot of lights and toys on, it would likely kill the batteries. Most people here have a seperate electrical system for the living area of their bus. It has it's own batteries, and a generator to charge them, or to provide higher power (110v or 220v) for larger accessories. We'd typically have an extra alternator/generator on the engine to charge our batteries while we drive. We'd also use a power inverter to convert the 12v DC batteries to 110v AC, to run their microwave, TV, or whatever. I believe most of the stuff you'd want to use from a house runs on 220v AC, right? That would take a different inverter than we'd use, but it's the same concept. I'm sure they're available, you'd just need to check locally for what's available. I looked at ebay.co.uk, and there are plenty of options available to you. Running a small TV, computer, or whatever, would be a piece of cake. | ||
| daniel grant (Dan27)
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thanks again I think that I will look into buying a coach based on the advice and will probably start it in the summer holidays which is about 6 weeks, I think that this will be long enough to get a good start. I’m slightly puzzled as to why it has to cost so much, apart from the original vehicle what are the 'hidden' cost's that I will encounter during the build. People are talking about spending thousands of pounds (or dollars) on their conversion. I’m hoping to keep the budget under £100 I have all the wood ill ever need at home already, for any 'walls' I want to build all of the bathroom equipment as I’ve said before I have. And I have a very nice plumber friends who could help me plum it in. the kitchen stuff I have. I think that I might be being slightly naive thinking that it wont cost that much so any black holes that will suck my money that could be pointed out would be helpful Thanks you all ever so much for all your advice Dan | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
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I am thinking one hundred pounds is a bit optimistic for any conversion, no matter how basic you make it. For that amount your conversion is not going to result in anything much more than a tin tent. If that is what you desire then super for you. The black holes that suck up the money are usually found by the side of the road in the dark of the night, most usually in a driving rain storm. The most expensive part of your conversion is going to be the platform upon which your conversion is built. Spending more up front for a better coach shell will always save you more money in the long run. The most critical areas for which to avoid black holes are in the running gear. The repair or rebuild of a heavy duty diesel engine will cost $6000.00 for a quick and dirty rebuild and can cost as much as $16,000.00 for an out-of-frame factory rebuild. The repair and rebuild for a heavy duty transmission or clutch can start in at $1000.00 and go above $8000.00 for a new factory rebuilt automatic transmission. The next most critical area is rust. If the rust worm has started in on any coach at which you are looking, look further for another coach. Once you start repairing rust you can end up completely rebuilding the body and frame. As far as the conversion itself, the cost of owning can be dictated by how it is constructed. Using readily available off the shelf components will make future repairs easier (any time you say easier usually equates to less expensive). You will most likely want to cover some of the windows, most likely with something more substantial than an old bed sheet. You will also want to insulate your conversion so you won't freeze when the temperature drops. A significant other may keep you warm at night but not your pipes. You may have all of the wood you will need but do you have the fasteners? Nails and screws can cost quite a bit. I am not trying to rain on your parade. You are doing the smart thing and asking questions before you start. But you will run into unexpected costs as you do your conversion. Some will be costs that you may not of thought of before you started. Other costs will be a result of you not thinking things through completely before you started ripping things out and putting other things in (I am thinking specifically of drilling a hole into the bus and finding a wire or hose with the drill bit--been there done that). Good luck and remember that the whole process is supposed to be fun. Mark O. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Dan - I don't know how it is in your Nation, but over here, the bus companies use the buses until they are no longer practical to run. They then sell the buses to "converters" or bus companies, that will use up what's left in the tired old beasts... After that... they are occasionally affordable for you or I to buy. And when you do, you purchase all the headaches that caused the very last operator, to decide to sell it. That, Dan.... Is the "deal"; it's the "black hole" that your cash falls into, never to be seen again. They don't call us bus NUTS, without reason. I wish you much luck..... but then, I've been wishing to win the lottery... | ||
| daniel grant (Dan27)
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yeah i made a mistake i wanted to keep the budget under £1000 not £100 i'm not that optimistic! if i were to use a coach i'm not sure about the structure of your americain buses but in england they have storage ares underneath the main body of the coach. to increase the space inside the coach i was considering cutting through the floor of the coach and therefore in creasing the area. the other area would probally be used for sleeping areas. is this possible and would the floor be strong enough to support the wight os the sleeping people? thanks again, Dan | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Daniel, You really need to get some exercise and physically look at any used buses in your area. A few excursions and asking questions in person will help answer most of the basic questions. You need to learn by touching and seeing in person before you plan a budget, conversion or use of a bus. You can ask questions on the boards but the problem is here that nobody (virtually) knows much about what is available in your area. U.S. and Canadian built buses probably will not be available in any form in your area so any experience that could be relayed across the pond may not apply to what you have or will have to work with. You seem to be looking for a Leyland, Mercedes or European bus to build on. We get Neoplans, Setra's (mercedes offshoot), Van Hool's and a couple of others. But they are built to U.S. and Canadian Standards that are nothing like what you have there. Even the parts are different, Fuel is different and regulations are considerably different. A £1000 base is even unrealistic. Tyres cost that much alone. So far I think you are dreaming... | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Daniel, Start here on eBay ( U.K. ) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Leyland-Tiger-Coach-Bus-Camper-Shop-Transporter-Export_W0QQitemZ4634 361690QQcategoryZ108850QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
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I agree totally with David. Going out to a big bus yard, and crawling around the buses taking pictures gave me more insight than I could have possibly found on the Internet. I may not have gone with the popular choice (GMC RTS rather than an MCI), but we all have to make our own choices for our own reasons. If you can't find a place selling buses, or a junkyard with old buses, ask people on eBay that are selling them, if they mind if you come out and just look. Honestly, you're shopping, so there's no harm in looking, even if you decide against it. You should make it clear that you're just looking. You may want to ask local bus companies if it's ok for you to come out to their depot, and look at the buses while they're not running their routes. I've found that an amazing number of people are very interested in doing these bus to RV conversions, and they're more than happy to talk to you about it. I have a friend working for a construction company who didn't think the work crew would help. He mentioned it to their foreman, and he said he was thinking of doing his own. They're excited to be able to help me out. 4 professional construction workers will likely be able to get the job done a lot faster than me and a couple friends. I'd be concerned with cutting any metal. Again, you'll need to physically look at the bus, and get with someone who's worked with them. It's possible that there's no support structure to the floor, but then again, you may find that the floor is important. Most (all?) of the people here are using the area under the floor for infrastructure, like water, generators, fuel, etc. You'll probably find that you want to reserve that space for things other than sleeping. If your ceiling height is ok for walking, which I suspect it is, leave the floor alone. But... It's your bus, do what you want with it. Of course we'll all want to see your photos as you make progress! |