| Author | Message | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Rating: N/A |
Hello everyone, I am trying to cut down on length of explanations on bb's as to what I am doing. Go to my www site that has conversion photo albums that continue after the CD I made stops on my conversion of my (1973 Model 05 Eagle). The following photo albums may be boring to some but hopefully encouraging to others to do this if they can and save money doing it. You have to have the knowledge to work with metal and weld to keep from getting frustrated, believe me. Well here goes. Album #8 is the remodification of my proposed area for the storage of my Radiator Mist tank and my Gray / Black water waste tank compartment. Album #9 is for the actual fabrication of the Radiator Mist Tank and tips for doing so. This tank is intended to be used on long uphill hauls to spray the radiator if needed to control heating up. If not needed, I have 29 gallons of water extra for my radiator if needed. Hours to make the Mist tank is about 30 X $75 labor if fabricated as I did and it would of cost about $2,250!!!!!!!! Yikes!! My cost, because I received my materials from a local metal shop out of their dumpster mind you, total cost of $000!!! FREE!! No BS here. Album #10 is for the actual fabrication of my Gray / Black water waste tank. This tank is a bear to work alone but possible. It weighs about 100 lbs I figure but bulky and a back breaker if you flip it, and mount it all alone, LIKE I ALWAYS DO!! So it can be done and here is how. Total hours for fabricating the Waste tank was about 65 actual work hours X $75 per hour labor if made the way I did. It would of cost about $4875.00!!!! Oh my Goodness!! The total cost for me?? Well I did purchased some material for sides of tank at a discount price and for weld fittings for the inlet & outlet of the tank at the total cost to me of $80.00. I Couldn't find the fittings in a dumpster!!. Here is where you can go view the above 3 albums if you wish, go to: http://community.webshots.com/user/converter101 I hope this helps some of you in your conversion decisions. I also hope to meet and visit with many of you this coming weekend, we are leaving tomorrow for Dallas & Cat's bus gathering at TIMMONSVILLE, SC so if you are going to be there introduce yourself to me, It will be my pleasure to visit with you and get some more ideas I can use. I will be bringing some of my CD's I made, ("Inspection & Repair Guide for Bus Conversions") in case anyone is interested. Information on this CD can be viewed at: (www.busconverter101.com). See you at Timmonsville Tomorrow. Gary Well my plan to make a shorter post went down the crapper!! Sorry, I just ramble on. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Gary, Giving you credit for your industry, if I understand that the additional 29 gallons increases cooling system volume, it will have little and transitory, effect on overall cooling capacity. You would have been way ahead adding additional radiator capacity. But pure radiator size, alone, isn't the answer - necessarily. Depending on the size, style and configuration of the second radiator, [or a larger replacement radiator]and the "method" or "approach" used, by the larger [or both] radiator(s), adding more radiator can actually reduce cooling system "capacity" as the turbulence within tubes in the heat exchanger area can be reduced and the radiator loses overall capacity to "reject" heat. A second radiator, controlled by thermostatic valves or a pneumatic controlled valve may be a better approach. If you're interested in a "graduate level" seminar on cooling system design, make your way to BusnUSA 2006 in Rickreal this July. They promised I won't have access to a seminar room (reserved for commercial vendors) but this "bus-side chat" will be a source for "All you never wanted to know about cooling system designs and lacked the basis to ask" I've contacted and plan to coordinate the presentation I'm organizing - my "invitational seminar" with Jim Shepherd's "after hours" presentation on engine repowers. No, not together, (I have too much respect for the guy and he's SMART) but we'll do one after the other or one night after the other. BTW - IMHO, you weren't "rambling" Onward and Upward | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Marc, I thought the tank was just to hold his spray water. Did I miss something on his site? bb | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Brian, I qualified my statement with: "if I understand that the additional 29 gallons increases cooling system volume," If the tank is separate and used only for the sprayer, with 29 gallons available to put INTO the cooling system in case of need to top it off, my comment is still valid but you're right - it's not relevant. Both BB's go through "topical cycles." This heating/sprayer thread pops up regularly. I expanded the topic slightly to avoid some of the newbies/silent majority getting the wrong impression about these "fixes". Spraying is a band-aid "fix", ("fix" being a double entendre) typically employed to compensate for either or all of a poorly maintained cooling system, a poorly attempted re-power or poorly driven bus. Like a drug "fix" giving the driver a "high" of making it over the grade without a overtemp shutdown, it doesn't solve the problem (really) It may just mask some serious problems in the engine. Just because the spray water can reduce the radiator outlet temp, doesn't mean the engine is as cool as it should be - in the "red zone" - inside the cooling passages in the heads and particularly on the cooling system side of the combustion chambers. Go to the evans cooling site for a good description and discussion of this point. | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Rating: N/A |
Hi guys, Thanks for looking at my Radiator Mist & Waste tank web site, I was glad to hear from Mark after all this time of my posting. The intention of this Mist tank in particular is just a (Band Aid) if ever needed. I am trying to utilize every space for something functional if needed. Some people say this mist system works, some say it isn't needed. I personally will not be traveling cross country very often so this is not a tour bus needing special radiators to compensate for the constant heating of my bus engine on a long continous trip where time is of the importance. I really plan trips about 200 miles per day or there abouts, just to stay within a 100 mile radius of each stop so we can make day trips to see things in America we only hear about and go to other busnuts homes etc. along the way. We will not have any set agenda to meet, time wise or in any particular location. The new radiator and the $$ of it is out of the question for my particular bus. The longest run at one time I believe at this time I will make will be from here to Arcadia, Fl. and that is not very mountainous, and oh yes I will be hoping for the best for sure with this old girl, expecially after what I have found in the past 4 years. I have completely disassembled my radiator, and have rodded out each and every tube, I had a hill on the ground when swept up about 1 inch high by about 6 inches in diameter of the calcium etc. I rodded out of my radiator tubes. I will flush out as much of the radiator coolant from my engine as possible before re-energizing my engine with new coolant and distilled water. My radiator mist tank will also have 29 gallons of distilled water to (spray) on the radiator front, (controlled by the driver power panel switch to a 12v pump) if needed to control the heat of my radiator a couple of degrees per my dash gages. Also if this water in my mist tank is not needed to cool my radiator and if I need to replenish my engine radiator coolant / water level I will have access to 29 gallons of more distilled water or perhaps I can help another bus nut needing some to top off his tank when we meet on the road etc. How many busnuts carry 29 gallons of Distilled water with them, (I have a dehumidifier to gather this water)?? But my distilled water in my mist tank will last forever in it's insulated, "RustBullet" coated tank or nearly that long. Anything I do on my bus I try to keep as simple as I possibly can and functional as a Backup if ever needed. Also I think for hours, (more thinking time than working time for me) of how to make every inch of the bus functionaly used and not wasted space as you can see by now. I hope I never need to use this Mist Tank to be honest but if I need a little more control at keeping the radiator a few degrees cooler then maybe, just maybe this will work for me. Thanks again for looking at my information on my tanks and for the comments. I sure wish I had you guys on my side 4 years ago, but I am sure we are making a lot of newbies really informed at this time more so than 4 years ago. Oh, did any of you see about the trucking industry problems with bad or unsafe brakes, tires etc. on the major news programs yesterday or day before?? This is a new thread topic for sure but something to think about on our older buses for safety of everyone on the road as well. DOT inspections are coming, I hope to go through an inspection with passing colors to even the most trained eyes of the inspectors. I hope after all my hard labor and thousands of hours working on my bus I get to go out and enjoy it like you that are on the road now do, but I assure you, this old girl is not moving out of my busport until I feel comfortable with every safety issue of her being safe. Another long post!!! sorry!! Thanks again, Gary | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, I have to disagree with Marc as to a mist system being a band aid. It is a fix for those that only occasionally need to solve an over temperature problem. It was a problem that I encountered occasionally when traveling through some of the western states and also here in WV occasionally. Two or three times a year possibly. To try and make room for an additional radiator, plus the additional cost, would have been extremely foolish in my opinion. In my case I had a 8V92 rated at 450 hp in a 40,000 pound Eagle towing a 5,000 pound Tahoe. The coolant for the genset was also routed through the main coach radiator for cooling. The must system solved my problem admirably for 15 years without any any deposits of calcium or other minerals collecting on the external surface of the radiator. I could also continue to run my genset for A/C while climbing the mountains. Now I have to disagree with your approach to solve the problem. You have a fresh water tank and a water pump, do you not? Then all you need is a 12 volt solenoid water valve to turn on your mister. Why an extra special tank? What is even worse, in my opinion, is that it is distilled water and you can not add antifreeze so what do you do in cold weather? And yes I understand that you do not plan on being in cold weather. Neither did I plan on it, but I did end up here where there is freezing weather. My personal opinion is this addition gave you some bragging rights, but little else. LOL Richard | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Rating: N/A |
I am addicted to these computers and am an hour late leaving for Timmonsville to Dallas & Cat's bus gathering. I will take a few moments and then shut this off for good for a few days. Thanks Richard for your support on the Mist Tank. I will try quickly to address some of your questions before I pack up and get out of here. (1) My compartment for the mist / waste tank is insulated on all walls and underneath with 1 1/2" sheet roofing insulation. If I were to go in a cold enviroment I would drian the tank if sever cold weather is expected. There is no guarantees on weather for sure, I hope the insulation will help, I may just put a (Water Bed) heating pad between the tanks to help keep them nice and cozy warm when I pull the tanks back out to connect up the air lines etc. (2) The reason for the distilled water is to be sure I do have the right water for the radiator if refilling is needed and not using the water from the tap any more with all the chemicals in it etc. This is just a safety caution after rodding out my radiator and finding what I did. I wanted to conserve my fresh water and not use it to control the staining of the radiator etc. (3) I will be using a solenoid for sure on the Mist tank and maybe never need it, I have a lot to learn about the plumbing of this tank but utilizing this wasted space was important to me and making it functional at the same time. (4) I did not even think of my bragging rights but I can boast a little. I just wanted to offer alternatives to other newbies to consider as to what I am doing, getting information from more experienced full timers like you and Marc and any other feed back is good for everyone to sort out for themselves. My conversion live (Bible to convert to) will always be feed back from Sonnie Gray and I hope one day that others will have something kind to mention like that about me and my experiences. If my Mist tank is a failure I will be the very first to warn anyone of it, and the precautions to prevent them from falling into any of my pitfalls I have found in four years. Thanks again Richard, Car is now ready for Timmonsville, hope to run in to and meet you soon. Have a good weekend everyone. Gary | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Rating: N/A |
I am addicted to these computers and am an hour late leaving for Timmonsville to Dallas & Cat's bus gathering. I will take a few moments and then shut this off for good for a few days. Thanks Richard for your support on the Mist Tank. I will try quickly to address some of your questions before I pack up and get out of here. (1) My compartment for the mist / waste tank is insulated on all walls and underneath with 1 1/2" sheet roofing insulation. If I were to go in a cold enviroment I would drian the tank if sever cold weather is expected. There is no guarantees on weather for sure, I hope the insulation will help, I may just put a (Water Bed) heating pad between the tanks to help keep them nice and cozy warm when I pull the tanks back out to connect up the air lines etc. (2) The reason for the distilled water is to be sure I do have the right water for the radiator if refilling is needed and not using the water from the tap any more with all the chemicals in it etc. This is just a safety caution after rodding out my radiator and finding what I did. I wanted to conserve my fresh water and not use it to control the staining of the radiator etc. (3) I will be using a solenoid for sure on the Mist tank and maybe never need it, I have a lot to learn about the plumbing of this tank but utilizing this wasted space was important to me and making it functional at the same time. (4) I did not even think of my bragging rights but I can boast a little. I just wanted to offer alternatives to other newbies to consider as to what I am doing, getting information from more experienced full timers like you and Marc and any other feed back is good for everyone to sort out for themselves. My conversion live (Bible to convert to) will always be feed back from Sonnie Gray and I hope one day that others will have something kind to mention like that about me and my experiences. If my Mist tank is a failure I will be the very first to warn anyone of it, and the precautions to prevent them from falling into any of my pitfalls I have found in four years. Thanks again Richard, Car is now ready for Timmonsville, hope to run in to and meet you soon. Have a good weekend everyone. Gary | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
There is always more than one way to skin a cat. My way was to carry a couple of gallons of distilled water in plastic containers in one of the bays. I drained off about 1/4th of each container so that even if it froze it would not damage the container. Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Richard, in an exercise of caution, I respectfully disagree with your "fix" opinion. If you consider that the cooling system is overloaded (thus requiring the use of the "mister") you cannot be sure that the reduction in radiator outlet temperature by use of the "mister" is actually cooling the cylinder heads sufficiently to prevent problems - where in "counts" - "In the Red Zone". While I agree that in marginal overheat situations, what you experienced was sufficient, and the proof of the pudding is the fact that you did not suffer engine problems. However, you can't be sure that every overheat situation is minor or marginal and it would be a disservice to others to leave them with a false sense of security, especially when those less experienced than you MAY compound the problem with poor driving technique (lugging the engine, etc) Another "weak point" to the 8V92 are the Two O-rings, one at each upper corner of the heads that gradually age and harden (faster with O'heats) My neighbor, the DD 2Stroke rebuilder was able to show me plenty of these type of leak failures in the years before his untimely passing. | ||
| Reader
Rating: N/A |
Spraying is no more a "band-aid" than is a "space-saver spare." Perhaps getting a flat tire makes you a "poor driver." The only poor impression in your post is the bad rap you are giving the resourceful individuals that take the time to help others. By Marc Bourget (64.142.42.176) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 7:29 am: Edit Post Brian, I expanded the topic slightly to avoid some of the newbies/silent majority getting the wrong impression about these "fixes". Spraying is a band-aid "fix", ("fix" being a double entendre) typically employed to compensate for either or all of a poorly maintained cooling system, a poorly attempted re-power or poorly driven bus. Like a drug "fix" giving the driver a "high" of making it over the grade without a overtemp shutdown, it doesn't solve the problem (really) It may just mask some serious problems in the engine. Just because the spray water can reduce the radiator outlet temp, doesn't mean the engine is as cool as it should be - in the "red zone" - inside the cooling passages in the heads and particularly on the cooling system side of the combustion chambers. Go to the evans cooling site for a good description and discussion of this point. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry Marc but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. The purpose of the radiator is to reduce the temperature of the water being supplied to the engine so that the engine can continue to operate in its normal operating temperature. The purpose of the mister is to reduce the temperature of the water in the radiator so that the engine can continue to operate in its normal operating temperature. What, pray tell, is the difference? Are you now going to tell me that you can not use a heat exchanger, like in a boat, to cool the temperature of the water going to the engine? Is there really any difference in that type of cooling and using a mister as a part of a heat exchanger? Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Reader, Poor or incomplete "reading", analysis and/or analogy. Radiator Misters are to proper cooling system design and operation as driving space-saver tires hundreds of miles, all over 50 mph, are to real tires. Yep, you might get away with it, but those tires are intended for use limited to slow speeds and short distances. Much harm can result from abuse of these limits. Your analogy is poor because space saver tires are for temporary use - meant to get you to a repair facility at slow speeds and limited distances. Misters, however, are used in worst case, top stress, conditions - almost the opposite case. Finally, While misters could be intentionally included in a cooling system - the cooling system equivalent of a "supercharger" - the design criteria are so fundamentally different that you'd have a different structure and configuration. Anybody "doing the math" will quickly ascertain that it's simpler, less hassle and less expensive to simply do it right in the first place. Your use of the term "resourceful" would be appropriate for a stop-gap measure by someone unexpectedly subjected to a cooling system inadequacy and needs to get home. As presented, the misters are intended to be a purposeful accessory to supplement a cooling system. If the limits and concerns aren't explained then somebody will take things for granted and try using a 2 stroke to pull "Rocky Top" in 3d gear at 1400 RPM and is fooled into continuing the abuse because the mister drops the radiator outlet temp. It's at this point your short-sighted, unsupported opinion will cause real harm. Or is there something wrong with the phrase: "ounce of caution is worth a pound of cure" Advising caution, with good reasons backing it up, isn't giving somebody a "bad rap", Criticizing somebody via a "nom du BB" after shallow thinking deserves one. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
To Richard, I agree with your characterization of the purpose of the radiator and use of the mister. Where your position breaks down, IMHO, is that the mister can "supercool" the radiator but in more than marginal overheat conditions, the mister won't remove enough extra heat to drop the temperature where it's needed - in the cooling passages above the combustion chambers. I agree you had good success with your set up, but you're knowledgeable, you "did it right" (once you left AZ trannys) and you're responsible so as not to lug the engine up grades. That isn't the case with all conversions/drivers. Again, my intention was to expose the "weak points" so the less knowledgable can either ask better questions or avoid operating parameters that will "unexpectedly" cause engine damage. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
As usual Marc, you are right on. I really had no choice when I did this. At the time there was no INTERNET boards with lots of wizards, no bus conversion publications and nowhere to go to get information. After changing from a 6V92 to an 8V92 I purchased the absolutely largest radiator that I could cram into the existing space. Unfortunately it was not large enough to handle all my cooling needs in extreme conditions. So I did the next best thing that I could think of, install a mister. Richard | ||
| Reader Rating: N/A |
Sorry Marc, you criticized a contributor without portraying the conditions under which a misting system should not be used. Using your own "lack of criteria" against you, I merely exposed your shortsightedness. A spare tire is there to help you out in a bind, and prevent you from being an unnecessary burden on others. Why would a misting circuit be anything less? There are inherent dangers in changing a tire; there are potential downfalls with using a mister. To bounce along and blast someone who would have the audacity to install a mister on their bus rather than overbuild the radiator or "drive properly" is neither beneficial to those with a minor cooling problem, nor the heart of the posters I read on this board. I stand by my comments and hope you can see at least a small portion of my side of the picture. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Reader, Please respond to the following with facts and quotes, not unsupported emotional conclusions. Who and how did I criticize or blast someone? Explain how I was short sighted? Blowing an engine makes one more of a burden than a flat tire. The tire can be replaced in a simple procedure on the side of the road. Why should I bother to see a "small portion of [your] side of the picture" when we obviously aren't looking at the same photo? Oh, I get it, it's not about cooling systems, it's about heart! If that's your point, why don't you go talk to the Wizard of Oz. Better yet, show up at Rickreal in July, identify yourself as "reader" and participate in the discussion. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Marc, in re-reading the posts I have a final question: snip "Just because the spray water can reduce the radiator outlet temp, doesn't mean the engine is as cool as it should be - in the "red zone" - inside the cooling passages in the heads and particularly on the cooling system side of the combustion chambers." In this statement you seem to indicate that you feel that the water returning to the heads is not as cool with the misting system as it is with the radiator system. My question is that if the water returning to the head is 180 degrees, then does it matter how it got down to this temperature, and further how can the head differentiate between the water cooled to 180 degrees by the mister or the water cooled to 180 degrees by the radiator? Or a combination of both? And granted that anybody can burn up an engine if they overload it, regardless of the type of cooling system it has. Richard | ||
| Reader Rating: N/A |
Reader, Please respond to the following with facts and quotes, not unsupported emotional conclusions. Who and how did I criticize or blast someone? You said “Spraying is a band-aid "fix", ("fix" being a double entendre) typically employed to compensate for either or all of a poorly maintained cooling system, a poorly attempted re-power or poorly driven bus. Like a drug "fix" giving the driver a "high" of making it over the grade without a overtemp shutdown, it doesn't solve the problem (really) It may just mask some serious problems in the engine.” Explain how I was short sighted? You said’ “Just because the spray water can reduce the radiator outlet temp, doesn't mean the engine is as cool as it should be - in the "red zone" - inside the cooling passages in the heads and particularly on the cooling system side of the combustion chambers.” I maintain: Cooling the radiator is the same regardless if it is done with a larger radiator or by misting. Heat dissipated is heat dissipated. Further more, I believe the temp is measured at the engine outlet not the rad outlet. Blowing an engine makes one more of a burden than a flat tire. The tire can be replaced in a simple procedure on the side of the road. True. However misting does not precipitate a blown engine, on the contrary, it is designed to prevent such from happening. (Which is the entire point of this dissertation) Why should I bother to see a "small portion of [your] side of the picture" when we obviously aren't looking at the same photo? I have no desire to “bother” you into doing anything. Just stop demeaning a guy who is preparing his bus to not let him down in the rare event of having to climb a long hill on a hot day. He wants to make it to the top without boiling over. And once he gets there he may never have to use it for the rest of the vacation. Oh, I get it, it's not about cooling systems, it's about heart! If that's your point, why don't you go talk to the Wizard of Oz. I have tried only to get you to see both sides of the issue. For any conversation with Mr. Oz, I will have to get his phone number. Could you include that in your next post. I would guess he is a friend of yours?? Better yet, show up at Rickreal in July, identify yourself as "reader" and participate in the discussion. I will see if I can work you into my schedule. Meanwhile, this has been an interesting debate. However, it has digressed to only a p-match between you and I. And while I would agree with you that what you say is true, the use of a misting system is no less true. I embrace both sides. You appear to only embrace yours. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Richard said: "In this statement you seem to indicate that you feel that the water returning to the heads is not as cool with the misting system as it is with the radiator system." No, temperature is absolute. 180 deg is 180 deg. - (by any other figure!) But temperature at the sensor is not a guarantee that the "system" as a whole is at 180 deg., or is adequately cooling the engine. IIRC on the 8V92, the coolant sensor is on one of the thermostat housings. If it was in the head, near a combustion chamber "top" it would likely measure the parameter I'm concerned with. Another, better, means of monitoring this critical area would be by exhaust gas temperature. My concern, stated simply,, is that the heat transferring from the combustion chamber to the cooling jacket, (the "red zone") causes micro-boiling. In a properly designed, maintained and driven bus, micro-boiling of short time duration utilizes a phase change to pull off enough heat to cool the engine. This is the same process employed by misting to pull heat from the radiator core. When the cooling system capacity is exceeded the micro-boiling bubbles last longer and longer and the critical factor of coolant mass supplied to the “red zone” is reduced. You can run the coolant by the enlarged bubbles, but it isn’t getting to the “red zone” to pick up the additional heat output. Yes, the coolant gets hotter, but it doesn’t accurately reflect the RATE of the increased heat output because “contact” or coolant "dwell time" sufficient to transfer the heat to the coolant is prevented. In this way, radiator "misting" can mask the fact that limits (besides temp at the coolant sensor) are being exceeded, things are getting out of acceptable limits and approaching or getting to a runaway condition. In this, indirect, way, misting can lead to mechanical failure. If an driver doesn’t know or recognize that this is a possibility, doesn't have or ignores the EGT, he can quickly arrive at a place where something goes "poof" before he's even alerted to the problem. Back to the basic statement, a properly sized, driven, and maintained system doesn't need misting. Misting is utilized, typically out of ignorance (the band-aid fix) to deal with overheating events. In marginal situations misting can give a driver a momentary joyful "high" of "beating" the overheat problem, but, like drug abuse, there are likely down-stream consequesnces much greater and more expensive than addressing the problem correctly when the overheating issue first arises since misting can disguise/conceal problems which can develop into a sudden failure. Reader consistently shorts his analysis - leading to his unsupported opinion that I’m being derogatory. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Like others posting on this thread, I am completely baffled. When the water going into the engine and and the water coming out of the engine are both at the correct temperature, how you cool the water is immaterial. If you are exceeding the design capacity of the engine (overfueling) and causing excessive head temperature that is a separate issue from reducing the temperature of the coolant. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Right! but uninformed people continue to attack overtemps, caused exceeding the design or current capacity of the cooling system, by installing misters. Increase the cooling capacity (includes maintenance) or reduce the amount of heat you produce. Don't "ostrich" yourself by using misters. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
It is my belief that the thermostats on the head of each block actually determine the amount of water flow needed to maintain 180 degrees at this point. And it is controlled by an element in the thermostat, not a sensor that is used to visually monitor the water temperature. It is further my belief that as long as there is sufficient cool water available at the thermostat to maintain the inlet temperature of the head at 180 degrees, it matters not a bit where that cool water comes from or how it is cooled. Even a long garden hose might suffice. LOL Once the head inlet reaches a temperature that is higher than the rating of the thermostat and it (the thermostat) can not open further, then the overall engine temperature starts to climb above the 180 degree mark and that is when the operator must pay close attention to the visual monitor to prevent overheating the engine and doing some damage to it. I do not care how big the radiator is, if it can not properly remove the heat being generated, the engine will overheat. The mister could be compared (in my opinion) to an auxiliary fan. I actually later on installed a heavy duty fan that moved more air and I also removed the built in hydraulic fan coupling to assure there was no fan slippage and I installed two 16 inch electric fans thermostatically controlled at 190 degrees. All this after installing a new radiator that was the largest available for the space available. Of everything I did, the mister provided the most and fastest reduction of heat. Please recognize that I am speaking from actual experience, not some calculated results. Quite truthfully it was quite amazing to watch. When the engine temperature approached the 200 degree mark, I would turn on the misters. Almost immediately the temperature would quit climbing and within just a few minutes (3-5) the temperature would slowly start dropping. Within about 10 minutes, the temperature monitor would indicate about 170 degrees. At that time I would turn the misters off and proceed as previously to the top of the grade. If needed I occasionally had to do this a couple of times on long steep grades when the outside temperature was in the 100 degree range. One good example was the climb out of Death Valley on the way to Las Vegas. Richard (Message edited by drivingmisslazy on May 20, 2006) | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Rating: N/A |
Oh my god, I have been gone to Dallas & Cats bus gathering at Timmonsville, SC and just got back. You guys must have nothing to do or something like that. I have said before I do not post anything I have done to my Eagle to state what I have done is the best situation for all to consider. I am just offering an alternative to use a space for something I still believe one day will be a life save or bus saver you might say. If I never need it, so be it, but I have it. Everyone tells of having 100 gallons of this, and 200 gallons of that and all I am making everyone aware of is an area that will hold up to 29 gallons of (Distilled Water), about 232 lbs. Now without getting any more technical and I am sure I could not sparr with anyone over this, I plan to still go with my design of my tank. It is made, will be loaded with distilled water, will be piped up to misters on my radiator and if I am convinced I have helped cool down my radiaor if it goes near 190-200 deg, I will try it out as a quick fix, band aid or what ever it it could be called. If I even draw off 5-10 gallons of this distilled water to help another busnut needing radiator filling, I got it!! If I need it cause of evaporation etc. of my coolant, I got it!! If I never ever need it, I still got it!! Please do not discourage anyone with unusual or unheard of ideas to submit for consideration by other bus nuts. I said I would test this mister when I can, I will promise to give my results of the mister use but this will be some time off. I did not see any comments about my Waste Tank?? Is that good or bad?? I worked by a-- off on that thing, will this work?? Lets not get into such technical things as the weight of my dump, (Waste) per person etc. Will the waste tank cleaning / washing system I installed work?? Is there any bets on the life of the 1/8" steel tank that has been coated with three coats of Rustbullet inside and outside?? Now, back to Timmonsville, SC bus gathering. I will write a post by Friday, May 26, I hope if all is done. I have over 180 pictures to go over and arrange for posting that I hope you will enjoy. I will say that this has been the most relaxing bus gathering ever. We all enjoyed becoming life long friends from this weekend on, there was nothing speticular done but just fellowshiping, looking at bus designs inside and out etc. That is all I will say as now, I will save any other comments for Friday. This will be a lot of work for me to do and work on Rustless Money Pit too so if it is not ready Friday hang in there. I will post it separately from my (Mist & Waste) tank posting, believe me. I am sure many wannabees are confused now with my post on the mist tank. I will say that I do not know of any manufacturer that made a mist tank set up as part of their design, at least I do not know of any. Now that does not mean that it will not work, it is just ("MY") way of using space, carrying more Radiator Water if needed, and cooling water as an expirement. How many busnuts have tried this mist system and it (SUCKS)!! Be honest and do not leave your name!! Just the results if you don't mind. How many others have installed it and believe it has helped?? No names please, just honest results. I look forward to reply's to my above inquiry. Now if you have used the mist system and it left stains all over the radiator after use, (did you use Distilled Water) in your system?? Is the staining of the radiator the only reason you did not like it?? Did it work and cool down the radiator??? Now I have work to do for Friday post, but I will keep looking back for the replies to my questions above. If you did not make it to Timmonsville,SC you missed a good, good time. Gary | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Hey there Gary, don't let the wannabees get you down! As you know, I've been dealing with this crap for years now and it hasn't changed and I don't look for it to ever change. Just do your thing and I say if they know of a better way or solution, more power to them. There are still those out here that write more than they produce. You know who I mean!  Just do it and if they want to know how good it works, let em ask! IF they ask, tell them or show them. If not, it's a lot less stress! Glad you had a great time. I wish I could have been there to share the weekend with you and yours but I'm still looking forward to January...hint hint! LOL Ace er TS | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
The same comments apply to the Flea Market. The ones who ask endless questions and make comments have no intention of buying. The ones working on their bus just make arrangements for paying and shipping. They remind me of a person who responded to an internet ad of mine for a converted bus. After a long list of questions, he asked "How much does a tire cost?". The low price of buses (NJTs) got many buyers who had neither the financial resources or the ability to complete even a basic conversion. Many have become eyesores in residential areas and getting complaints to get tougher zoning bylaws. It is not a status symbol sitting in your yard. If you can't complete it, it would be better to sell it to someone who can. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Hey, you got my vote Gary. Maybe somewhat un-orthodox, but it it works great, and if if doesn't then so what. I can absolutely guarantee that thew mister part will work, and work great. BTW, I used a total of six misters, two rows of three each. They were originally designed for a home flower misting system working from 1/4" plastic water line. I used the ones with the smallest orifice and they provided plenty of cooling. 6 GPH if my memory serves me correct. Richard | ||
| Reader Rating: N/A |
Marc, And this will be my last post on this line of debate. You have a solution for preventing the possibility of overheating. In fact, you have a very good solution. You DO NOT have the only solution. The problem from the get-go is that you present your solution as the best and perhaps the only solution and anyone that does not agree with you is in likened to a “poor driver”, “poor bus maintainer”, or “drug addict.” I simply do not agree with you. And from reading the posts, there are others who don’t either. The misting system is very much in the running for a viable, usable, responsible, economical, and reliable alternative for a completely redesigned cooling system. I suspect there are bus owners/converters that will never see the road if they do their entire conversion according the process you use to JUST determine components of the cooling system. BTW, I do have a bus in progress, complete with OEM drive train. The radiator has been cleaned and rodded and the Detroit has been treated with TLC. I do not expect an overheat problem, but it is definitely in the back of my mind. Should a problem or suspicion of a problem come up, it will have a mister long before it will have a several thousand-dollar radiator upgrade. Out of curiosity, what is your connection with conversions? Have you converted or restored an old bus? Purchased one that is already done? PS. Thank you for the friendly banter I enjoyed with you. I will continue to watch and learn. Reader | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
"Out of curiosity, what is your connection with conversions? Have you converted or restored an old bus? Purchased one that is already done?" READER... ask to see pics of his work in progress! It ironed out a similar situation between my buddy JohnMC9 and I. It goes to show that honesty is worth a lot more than BS. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Hmmmmmmmm! Does that imply that since I never actually converted a bus I should never share the knowledge I have gained over the years? Richard | ||
| Reader Rating: N/A |
Richard and H3-40, A heartfelt and emphatic NO! The Wright Brothers and Henry Ford and countless others like them, both past and present should never ever stop building, experimenting and sharing information. My original post was to defend the misting system and the information shared about it. And to try to indicate the possibility of multiple solutions for each problem. My question was deeper than that. Is Marc a fancy radiator saleman? Or have a mail-order bus? I cannot afford a half million dollar bus. Which would probably not have cooling problems, nor can I justify the several thousand dollar radiator upgrade. I learn more from these bulletin boards than I ever could by research or trial and error. It bothers me that someone comes along and negates all other setups and insults the ones that are making them work. Once again, Marc has some very valuable information, it just is not the only solution. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
That's obviously an issue for some of these guys, Richard. If they get their way, what will they have? Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Folks: I usually do not feed into topics that have been controversial, but I have a question on this topic, and it is Question ONLY!!!! Has anyone ever seen a Greyhound or Trailways or a Private Bus Company Bus, which operates over the Rockies or thru the Deserts, equipped with anything other than the original coach cooling system, as built by the manufacturer???? In my 44 years working in the bus industry and reading all of the industry publications available, I have never encountered the subject of "a misting system" ever being mentioned, no less considered?? What am I missing, other than coaches that have had power plant upgrades??? Now in the case of the 4104 and 4106's as well as early MCI MCI models, the Interstate System of Highways had not yet been built, which enhanced speed limits, which is a factor!!!! What am I missing in this conversation??? Happy & SAFE!! Bussin' to ALL. LUKE at US COACH | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Luke, my conversion it was several thousand pounds over the manufactured GVW. I believe it was around 42,000 pounds. I was also towing a 5500 pound Tahoe. The changes I made were over a period of a couple of years as I experimented trying to find my problem. Initially I converted from a 6V92 to an 8V92 which significantly increased the amount of heat the radiator had to get rid of. Additionally the genset was plumbed thru the coach cooling system adding an additional heat load. Suffice to say, I was generating a significant additional amount of heat than the Eagle engineers originally planned on. I believe I approached the heating/overheating problem in a logical manner. First, I installed a NEW radiator. It was absolutely the largest that could be found that would fit in the available space. Second, I removed the original fan and the hydraulic coupling between the fan and the hub. I installed a new fan, minus the hydraulic coupling, that according to Dave at Southern Oregon Diesel would move a significant amount of additional air than the original fan. At the same time I installed a new shroud and sealed up any air flow paths around the radiator to make sure a maximum amount of air moved thru the radiator. I also removed the factory original A/C condenser coil which was not being used, but did block some air flow. Next I added two 16 inch automotive type electric fans. This was mostly to keep the radiator cool while I was running the genset and out in the boonies parked. Although they did help in cooling the radiator while climbing some of the passes. The last thing I did was add the mister system. Believe me, if I had done this first it would have solved all my problems and saved me several thousand dollars plus a lot of headaches and worry. And thats my story! Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Richard, After all these years of reading your process in upgrading your cooling system, it just struck me, what, if anything, did you do to shroud the new, larger radiator? Did you simply use the original shroud, which I will assume was smaller than the radiator you installed? Were the two electric fans addressing areas not covered by a smaller shroud? (By the more detailed questions, I'm not making negative suggestions, just focusing in on what I think is significant). Thanks in advance Marc | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I bought a new shroud when I put the new radiator in. I really do not remember all the details. Was many years ago and the work was being done at Tucson while I still lived in Pasadena. The two 16 inch booster fans were actually mounted on the outside of the radiation, blowing in toward the regular fan. I could turn them on when the temperature started climbing above 180 and they would help control the temperature on medium grades, or even when running 75-80 across the plains in the middle of summer. The primary purpose of these auxiliary fans though was to provide radiator cooling while I was parked in the desert and the genset was running. The genset was plumbed thru the coach radiator and the auxiliary fans would run about 10% of the time. They were on a thermostat to automatically click on at about 190 degrees. Richard | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Boy you guys!! You're worse than the dog and I ever were!! Wheeee! Arrgh..bite...snarl...growl... I can't resist jumping in, and unfortunately Mark, I have to agree with the other side... I think you're all wet- (well, maybe you're hot under the collar over this and all you need is a nice mist to cool you down ) There is absolutely NO difference between water coming out of a radiatior that is BIG vs water coming out of a smaller radiator at the same temperature that has been helped by a mister. Did you pass physics? Egads guy. Red zones, blue zones, mouse zones. Engines get cooled by water, water gets cooled by radiators and that's about all that there is... Anyway, without getting too deep in this puddle of spray, I'll add my two cents: (Cent #1) Firsthand experience of roughly 100,000 miles with a mister: Misters do work and they work well, and as long as EGT is ok, they won't trash your engine (unless you run out of water on a hot grade and aren't paying attention...however that is one of those "what if's" probably better left to John's department). If the water coming back to the engine is cool enough to keep the temp. gauge in an acceptable place, it doesn't make a rats ass difference if that water was cooled by a gigantic radiator with a mother-of-all-fan, or a misted radiator. Think about it. The temperature gauge is located where the water EXITS the engine. So if it's happy, everything preceding it is cooler. Not the other way around as your red-zone theories maintain... (cent #2) Firsthand experience: Yes, misters are bandaids. I've had two busses, still have one of them and I'm now building my third. Both of my earlier busses started with me putting on misters, until I could finally afford new massive radiators. Calculations and armchair theories be damned, bigger radiators and fans cure overheating, period. And until you can afford them, misters will do the same, quite nicely indeed. .......... Oh yeah, luke... what you're missing is why commercial bus lines don't use misters... they consume water and a lot of it. My first bus used to eat 50 gallons in 2 hours if I was up in the rockies on a hot day. That would never work for a commercial liner, so they just do the radiators correctly in the first place and don't worry about it. My guess is that alone is the reason you never see misters mentioned with the "big guys". My experience is solely with ex-skoolies. Those things are designed to the cheapest limits... my first bus (Superior) for example ran fine and never overheated UNTIL I removed the 4 seat radiators in the passenger compartment. Believe it or not, GM figured those into the equation and it was so close that taking them out upset the equation and the bus always overheated from that point on, even on flat highway!!! Misters fixed it until I put in a radiator about 4 times larger. My Crown? Same thing. They are great hauling kids to school but on the highway their cooling system is miserably undersized. Misters to the rescue until again, a radiator of almost twice the core area fixed it for real. My Bluebird? Not going there. Before I even got it home it got a new radiator with as thick a core as could be crammed in. So far so good... Grapevine on a 105 day, it never touched 190... I won't be commenting on this thread again, 'cause I've said my peace and don't need to pound it in again and again, although it's quite humorous watching you guys go at it!! hee hee... like an old machinist used to tell me... Keep a cool tool, don't let your meatloaf... Cheers! gary | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach)
Rating: N/A |
HI Gary and Folks: Gary, I have been at this for 44 years and therefore know "Just enough to be Dangerous"!!! Through my early years working in the industry working for operating bus companies, and in 11 years of operating my own coaches, if we had a coach using an excessive amount of water, the coach was inspected, problem was found and repaired. I would not argue that there are many folks using coaches for personal use that may be underfunded. But in my own mind, and for the benefit of All Reading This, who do not Post, adding "Misters", hoping to solve a problem could result in a huge financial cost (Loss of Engine),because the misters did not work!!!!! I come from a generation where we were taught and we learned that if we could not afford to do it, we did not do it, and I still don't!!!! When I ran buses, and if we had a profitable year it was very small, my shop had a blank check to keep the coaches in Good Repair. Why, because it was too expensive to repair it after a Breakdown, Tow Job etc. etc. etc. Commercial operation of these coaches folks is no different than your recreational use. They must be SAFE & RELIABLE, because inside them is the most valuable cargo that the Good Lord has put on this Earth, and that is People!!!! I Hope this Helps!!! Happy & SAFE!! Bussin' to ALL. LUKE at US COACH | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
I read Gary's post to mean that his mister system used a lot of water, not the engine itself. Most of the problem with conversions is that HP has been increased and automatic transmissions have been added and then the driver wants to climb the mountain at 70 MPH. About twenty years ago, I remember Greyhound trying the air scoops that IIRC were available from MCI. The 5s, 7s and 8s had borderline cooling in the western deserts from day one. I had a 5A at that time and I had to drive very carefully on a hot day with a well maintained cooling system on the original driveline. It would have been impossible to maintain a schedule set in cooler weather. When road surface temperatures approach 170 F the air being sucked through the radiator does not do much cooling. The opposite occurs with a misting system since high temperature and low humidity give maximum cooling. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
I'm not sure whether Gary really disagrees with me or not. He certainly agrees with my position - to a point! But I'm focused on the one essential step, one step further than visited by Gary, and acknowledged by Luke. I've had the opportunity to discuss this thread with Bob Sheaves, a consulting automotive/truck engineer who's currently on contract with one of the truck manufacturers. The coolant/combustion chamber top interface, "the red zone" or the heat source. That's where it's all happening, folks! Everything else in the cooling system is intended to deal with the product of what happens in the "red zone". If the rest isn't maintained, things go bad. The problem with misters is they can disguise what's happening in the red zone. If disguised, you can determine what's happening if you run a pyrometer. Gee, Gary admits that misters are OK as long as EGT is OK, HELLO! So it appears that even Gary agrees water temp isn't the overarching and controlling factor after all!!!!! This simple admission proves my point! Misters are "band aids" because they only "work" in marginally compromised cooling systems. (meaning, they cool safely WITHOUT a pyrometer- BUT YOU CAN'T TELL IF IT'S SAFE WITHOUT A PYROMETER) Misters are like illegal drugs. They CAN give you a false "high" tricking you to thinking that you're cooled sufficiently, when only a pyrometer can tell you for sure. A mister can trick the coolant temp guage into indicating everything is wonderful when things are getting tore up elsewhere in the "body", er engine. If I am wrong, why would a pyrometer, the best indication of the "red zone" condition, be relevant? The harm caused doesn't have to be immediate and catastrophic, it can accumulate, but accumulate it will. YMMV | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
I lied, I'll post again. Marc, if misters can do all this trickery, SO CAN A PROPERLY SIZED COOLING SYSTEM by your logic. I do not agree with you. What I agree with is that that happy engines are monitored best by a combination of cooling water temperature gauge AND an EGT gauge (*see note below), having absolutely NOTHING to do with how that water is cooled. You're mixing two subjects together here that are related but not in the context of this thread. We're NOT discussing whether EGT gauges are necessary or not- we're discussing whether misters work or not. They do. Simple as that.... And I wish you'd quit comparing misters to illegal drugs (and repeating yourself about it) because misters don't get you high. Obviously you havn't tried them! The only thing that makes illegal drugs illegal is politicians. Let's not get politicians involved in our cooling system designs- we're having a hard enough time on this one without them....eeeeeeek @@@!!!!@@@ Luke, Stan is correct, I was not meaning that engines use any water at all under mister cooling. They don't. I meant that mister systems use a lot of water. A LOT of water indeed. My biggest unhappiness with the systems I had was that I'd have to stop more frequently to fill the water thank than to get fuel... 4-6 times more frequently. It was annoying. But it got us there... (*) My experience with an EGT: I put one on my Crown, expecting to have another window into the safety of my engine's operating parameters. At least on this engine (220 hp with a smoke turbo, boost limited to 5psi) it's the biggest waste of dash space I've installed to date. There is NOTHING I can do with this bus to get it over 900 degrees F, regardless what I'm towing, what the outside temp. is, altitude, etc. In these same conditions, my water temp. gauge tells all. It's very responsive and there is a lot I could do it in the past (prior to misting or the big radiator) to get it to go over 200, which is the beginning of the end for a 220. But the EGT gauge never gets anywhere near the dangerous zone no matter what the water gauge is saying or the engine is doing. And yes it's instatlled properly and calibrated. So at least for my Crown, the EGT gauge is a usless waste of time and expense. It's definitely NOT the be-all end-all of engine monitoring. I can see that with a souped up engine an EGT might be a worthy gauge, but it's not for everyone. Water temp. gauges are... (Message edited by boogiethecat on May 25, 2006) | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Uh, Hi guys! Marc the drugs I get, both over and under the counter have never given me a "FALSE" high! In fact, they were so good, and "TRUE", that I changed over to Corona's due to the fact that Corona's are cheaper! Long live the long necks... and lime of course! Ace | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Hey, is this thing never going to end? It seems like the nay-sayers are the ones that have never tried this and therefore are unable, in my opinion, to make a judgment based on here say and some other engineer who has an opinion. I certainly respect Bob Sheaves (that Marc refers to) but if he hasn't BTDT, then his is only another opinion. First to Luke, and this is the first time in many years and after many posts that I have to disagree with him. Quote "This, who do not Post, adding "Misters", hoping to solve a problem could result in a huge financial cost (Loss of Engine),because the misters did not work!!!!! " First of all, if someone has to install misters they have a serious problem and if they do not closely monitor their engine temperature guage they will have serious problems. It does not matter whether the misters work or not (and believe me they do). What I am trying to say is that even without the misters they have a problem and they must monitor the engine temperature. Misters are not a cure all for a defective radiator or a defective cooling system and those problems should be resolved before considering mister installation. The misters are only for those situations when the coach cooling system is in normal operating condition but is not capable of cooling the engine under certain operating conditions, such as climbing Baker Grade. These conditions are typically created by such things as installing a larger engine, significantly increasing the weight of the coach or towing a large vehicle of some sort. The coach was not originally designed for these conditions and something must be done to eliminate the problem. There are several solutions, one of which is the mister. It is not a cure all. Engine temperature must be closely monitored. However, engine temperature must be closely monitored whether the mister system or any other system is utilized to resolve the overheating problem. Gary: I believe you are using much too large misters. It takes a very small amount of water to provide the cooling necessary. Over size misters will just waste water and accomplish nothing more than very small orifice misters will. I really could never detect any significant water usage. Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Gary, you didn't lie, you changed your mind based on or because of my response. You must be joking? You're comparing apples and oranges if you think the situation with your 220 Crown is equivalent to a 8V71 to 8V92 repower in either a MCI or Eagle. Even those buses, with proper (8V92) radiators, are still problematical if the cooling system is not maintained. I never said or meant to say misters don't cool. Show me where I said that. They do cool. Evaporating water carries off alot more heat than air. The ratio is something like 1000 times the heat absorbed going from ice to water, IIRC. But do you want to solve you heating problems with misters? That is the question! I still feel (and much of what you've said supports this opinion) that (except for 220 Crowns) you shouldn't attack overheating FIRST with misters. If you need misters you really need a bigger radiator or a better maintained one. It's all part of the KISS principle. What does a mister equipped bus do if it runs out of water or the mechanism breaks? More systems = more failure modes. You still haven't addressed my cardinal point. A mister equipped bus, without a pyrometer (EGT) CAN "disguise" the fact that while the coolant temp is below max, the cylinder's are overheating and damage can result. Anybody that discounts this possibility is full of what makes turnips grow large! [tongue in cheek comment! :^) ] I feel that many converters, especially those that lack big rig experience, are blind and otherwise insensitive to the potential for damage. Sorry if my first few posts didn't express this clearly, but refining thoughtful expression is one of the goals of a BB. | ||
| R Fisher (Ranger)
Rating: N/A |
Can the cylinder overheat and cause damage even if you do not have a pyrometer and the radiator is working properly? Randy | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
A pyrometer doesn't prevent overheating of a cylinder, It's a measurement of the exhaust gas temperature (EGT) that indirectly gives "some" indication that the cylinder head can be in an overheat condition. It is a much better, but not the best, indicator of cylinder head or localized heating than coolant temperature. Radiator "working properly" is ambiguous. "Working at design capacity" is a better goal or criteria. Being a dynamic system, the ability of the radiator to keep up with the demand is the bottom line factor. Usually (absent repower or "hot-rodding", the radiator in good condition (all other factors,yada, yada, ok) has enough capacity to handle the demands placed by the engine. My concern, which I can't seem to communicate, is that the engine can "skip past" a general overheat condition because of the use of misters and actually be undergoing a localized overheat that's not detectable by the coolant sensor alone. I'm not saying it's gonna happen every time. I am saying it can happen and without a pyrometer, which is an indirect measurement but better than collant temp alone, you could damage the engine. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Can the cylinder overheat and cause damage even if you do not have a pyrometer and the radiator is working properly? UNQUESTIONABLY yes!Most likely from poor coolant management . This is when the antifreez is not changed with a chemical clean out . The water flo in every passage gets compromised and in the worst (usually the cylinder head) hottest area steam is created , even tho the temp gage reads OK. The LOCAL OVERHEAT can damage the engine with out the need for a mister bandaid. The DD is sensitive to local O' heat , which is why DA Book recomends 200F as a max for operation , it's only 12 deg from steam , and NO HEAT TRANSFER inside the engine. A mister may cool the radiator just fine , but what is happening inside the engine detirmines weather its gona get e$pensive. FAST FRED | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Repeating a point I mentioned above, the heat is initially absorbed into the cooling system by micro boiling. Mini bubbles that work on the high energy absorbtion (compared to melting ice) I mentioned above. The real harm occurs when, as FF states, cooling system obstruction or significant localized overheating occurs. A "runaway" situation arises when the cylinder head top gets sooooo hot that it makes "macro" bubbles rather than "mini" bubbles. The metal super heats, causes the big bubbles. With "big" bubbles, not enough coolant can get to the metal - where it needs to be - for long enough "contact time", etc. etc. that overall heat transfer to the coolant is actually slowed down (because of the big bubbles) This overheat condition can get "disguised" by the coolant in the rest of the engine (the not overheated part) because of "heat averaging" the rest of the coolant isn't at max and has the ability to absorb enough of the "extra" heat so the coolant temp sensor may rise but it doesn't register the danger posed by the LOCALIZED overheat. Here's a good/better anology. Person with nerve damage (can't feel heat to the hand) steps out of the pool, while dripping wet and puts their hand on a hot plate. While blisters form on the palm and fingers, all the other heat sensors in the body tell the person not only "no problem" but "gosh, it's chilly!". This resembles the remoteness of the coolant sensor and even the pyrometer ( but the pyrometer is somewhat better than the coolant sensor - there's no "bubble" effect with exhaust gases to disguise the problem like with coolant but there is a degree of temperature averaging) Given that example, somebody claiming misters "work" misses the point I was trying to make. Misters can cool. However, because most people are unaware or don't consider the possibility of localized overheating, they can be fooled because Mister's can disguise LOCALIZED overheating problems. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Given all that Marc, then what is the difference in adding a larger radiator or adding a mister? Either could disguise the hypothetical problem that you are apparently aware of. I think you are shooting yourself in the foot. LOL Richard (Message edited by drivingmisslazy on May 26, 2006) | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I’ve stayed out of this one for this long. I guess I’ll try to re-cap some of the points made, and maybe make some of my own… 1)Some of our coaches are old. Some of our coaches have had modifications done to them, like added automatic transmissions to a once-stick coach that was never designed to handle the add’l. heat and/or have generators plumbed into the cooling system of our coaches. Some of us run our coaches in marginal situations, like climbing a long grade in desert heat, at high altitudes. 2) Adding misters is scientifically-irrefutable method to cool a radiator’s output via the phenomenon known as evaporative cooling. However, this may or may not actually be cooling the coolant locked deep inside the engine. 3) If one has to run misters all of the time, there well could be issues with the cooling system that need to be addressed. Likewise, if one runs with misters and ignores the black smoke coming out of their tailpipe and/or doesn’t have a pyrometer, they could be boiling water in their engine’s heads and not know it. 4) In a coach, with or without misters, even with an engine running under supposedly “normal operating temperatures”, one could still have water boiling away in the heads, leading to an impending financial disaster. 5) If one installs misters for occasional use, one could be either truly saving the engine from overheating OR be causing the engine to overheat internally and never know it. 6) I for one will be installing misters in my bus for the next trip through the mountains near me that have 7% grades at 11,000 feet. My bus has been modified with an automatic tranny, a genny plumbed into my cooling system, modified fuel injectors (N65’s that will one day be replaced with stock N60’s)… and a soon-to-be-added supplimental radiator cooling system (misters). 7) I do like to take my bus into the mountains and climb up steep grades in summertime weather. These are the only conditions where my bus has needed additional cooling capacity. 8) Adding a bigger radiator would cost me ten times more than adding a misting system. 9) If I cook my engine, I’ll have no one to blame but myself. 10) Most of us have differing opinions on just about everything. Many of us like to share them with others. 11) And that’s OK. 12) We all make our choices and take our chances. That’s (hopefully) all I’m going to say on the matter, Brian Brown Longmont, CO 4108-216 w/ V730 | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
I met a guy a few years ago who is probably one of the last true "adventurers" left on the planet. He's the kind of dude that gets off a boat in Bora=Bora, heads for the jungle and isn't seen for 6 more months. He has some incredible stories and photos to back them up. He was giving a lecture and he related a point in his childhood when his parents decided to actually live in Borneo for a year, in a tribal area on a river. Being the only white kid on the The tribe kids had a game they'd play, somewhat like chicken... they'd stand on the river bank and shoot an arrow straight up in the air, then see how long they could stand still without running, in case it came down on their heads. This kid decided to be really cool and not move no matter what. So he shot an arrow up, and stood his ground. The damned thing came down and landed right thru his foot! Well stupid as that was, from that point on he was best of friends with the tribe kid 'cause he'd proved that he could be brave and stand his ground regardless the logic or wisdom involved. True story.. I've seen the scar... Marc....???? Ok, let's look at this another way: (1) There are quite a few guys here, some of them well respected on this board, telling us that their firsthand experience with misters says they're ok. (2) There's one guy here, who apparently has never even tried one, telling us that the sky will fall in and our engines will die a miserable death if we use them. Question: is there anyone here who has had their engine destroyed by use of a mister? I'd love to hear their story.... waiting.... waiting.... Oh. I see. Ok, I'll try another approach, I'll search Google for "engine damage radiator mister" and see what happens: searching.... Hmmm. 19,800 webpages returned. guess I should only read the first few. First up: "Joe's water injection systems" ...nope, all he says is that you may want to add a radiator mister later when you have all that big horsepower added to your engine.. Next: "Red Cap Products". Hmmm. They sell mister systems. What do they tell you about them? Radiator Mister Does your car run HOT in stop & go traffic? Does your truck run HOT pulling heavy loads? Does your race car run HOT on yellow flags? THEN YOU NEED THE RADIATOR MISTER! Radiator Mister special spray jet puts a mist of cool water in front of the radiator, cooling it and the engine by as much as 20 degrees! Universal, easy to install kit includes 3-1/2 gallon water tank, switch, hoses, and wire. $79.95 + S&H Ok, cool, but they didn't mention busses so I guess I should read on... Next: Well, lots of pages that have nothing to do with radiator misters, and certainly none I could find that mentioned they damage engines.... Ok, I'll try a variation on the search: engine damage "radiator mister" ...oops, three returns, all of which have alread been mentioned above Well gee. Sure seems that there's not much scuttlebut out there about engine damage due to misters.... not even the usenet has any chat about it.... Hmmmm, can we finish this now? Everyone has made their point.... lets move on... (Message edited by boogiethecat on May 26, 2006) | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
You go Gary and as for the sky falling in? I think it might tonight here in Lakeland as it's raining pretty darned hard and hail too! Aw heck I'm gonna go stand out in it and see if any hit me in the head just to prove... uh... something anyway! Ace | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
Gary S......run out of things to do today?..... RCB | ||
| Marc Bourget. Rating: N/A |
Gary, Kay Bingham was a factory approved DD 2.stroke overhaul shop. Knew him since 1992 or so. My industrial building is next door. Kay passed away about 2 yrs ago. Kay said a major reason for 8V92's needing work were the two "o-ring" seals between the head and block getting hard because of repeated overtemps. They'd leak water into the oil, IIRC. Now, I don't know if he was "spoofing" me, but he, being a Bishop in the Mormon Church, was a pretty principled guy. I was surprised that these two o-rings or similar type seals would be the "Achilles heel" of these engines. I mentioned this "propensity" to Geoff Smith when he came over one time. but I forget his reply. I think I'd remember if his reply was significantly different. I'd see a different truck at Kay's every week or two. I'd ask from time to time "another o-ring job" and he'd mostly agree. So, something like 20 engines a year ??? But like I said, he could have been spoofing. I've got a spare complete 8V92 core with bad bearings apparently from this problem. It all (reputedly) happened due to repeated hot temp episodes. YMMV. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Marc, do you think these hot temperature episodes happened while heavy loads were applied? Such as climbing a long grade like Baker? Sounds to me like they could have benefited from a mister system to maintain proper cooling! LOL Richard |