| Author | Message | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Posted From: 209.50.74.6 Rating: N/A |
Just for you guys with DDEC controlled engines Pete Papas and I have spent several days working on a slow accelleraton problem. What we discovered was the engine wouldn't fuel up till the DDEC sensed some turbo boost. We played with different ways to fool the computer and finally came up with the following solution. By putting a varible resistor between pins "B" and "C" of the turbo boost sensor the DDEC thought that it was getting turbo boost and would take off like a race car. The only problem we encounterd was if you put too low a resistance you would blow a lot of black smoke and that isn't good. With a varible resistor of about 100 ohms you could control the smoke problem somewhat. Your foot does the rest. Also it would help if you put a fixed 75 to 100 ohm resistor in series with the varible one it would insure that you never set the varible one so that the smoke is too bad. This setup didn't affect the top end once the turbo spooled up. I did a road test and it made so much difference it the accelleration I can't believe it is the same engine. Bill | ||
| Greg Peterson Posted From: 71.228.18.37 Rating: N/A |
Are you sure the sensor is operating correctly? It may be giving the wrong resistance for boost pressure. My ISB Cummins has a computer and accelerates very fast. It does not smoke at all and puts out the most fuel it can with respect to the boost pressure. If I put a resistor across the sensor it would screw up the whole program. It has to adjust the injector timing and fuel depending on boost pressure and altitude. (It has a separate sensor for altitude). This sounds like a bad idea unless you know more about the DDEC computer program. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Posted From: 72.40.3.160 Rating: N/A |
Hi Hi - Good News for DDEC (I-II-II-IV) Owners with poor acceleration from a stop In talking about 6V92TA's with a painfully slow response when starting from a dead stop only - seems their DDEC is set with some kind of "smoke control" option - they do not smoke when you mash the throttle down DDEC I - Thanks to the work of Butch Williams - Luke at US Coach stocks an EPROM replacement for approx $100 that will cure most N.J. MCI DDEC I of their poor acceleration. DDEC I's have a replaceable EPROMS and are not programable DDEC II, DDEC III, DDEC IV, Bill Gerrie and I have worked on this problem for the last few days- Via long distance phone call Between Daytona and Toronto - Thank goodness for "Unlimit USA/Canada phone plans) Bill used his PROLINK to verify and test the settings and ideas - First a little history The D/D DDEC TURBO BOOT SENSOR old part#--- 16070629 new part#- 23528418 is a 3 pin solid state IC device pin A = Sensor Return pin B = Signal Line pin C = +5 volt supply line pin B - operating range - approx .5v to 4.75 - voltages outside this range will cause a DDEC Fault example pin B @ 1.00 volts = approx 00 PSI Boost pin B @ 2.25 volts = approx 10 PSI Boost pin B @ 3.80 vollts = approx 20 PSI Boost <>The PROLINK was used to verify the correct action of Bill's TBS without the modifications <>Bill came up with a unique solution - A 100 ohm resistor between pin B (sense line) and C (+5 volts) - will pull up the voltage at the sense line (pin B) to what would be an approx 4-5 psi boost voltage level (as measured/verified with the PROLINK) <>AS the actual boost pressure increases past 5 or 6 PSI the pull-up effect goes away - allowing normal TBS voltage levels <>AT full boost the pull-up resistor has no effect <>The net result is that the DDEC thinks that there's is a little boost pressure available at IDLE and allows for more fuel to be delivered to the injectors upon acceleration <>This does mean that if you mash the pedal - you will produce some black smoke - adding a 100 ohm potentiometer to the existing 100 ohm resistor will help you dial out excessive smoke - or - just use the throttle pedal wisely (especially in front of the smog control guys) <>Idle still remained smoke free Pete RTS/Daytona Your results may vary - use at your own risk !! (Message edited by pete RTS/Daytona on July 03, 2006) (Message edited by pete RTS/Daytona on July 03, 2006) | ||
| motorcoach1 Posted From: 66.147.114.58 Rating: N/A |
Pete I think Eagle-research.com makes a unit that will work . It is used in Hyrdroboost systems to fool the oxygen sensor and emulates a signal , it's switched at the dashboard so you can resume normal engine habits. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Posted From: 72.40.3.160 Rating: N/A |
motorcoach1 - Please supply a link to the device your talking about at eagle-research.com If it's thier " brown's gas electrolysis hydrogen oxygen device" - I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you. Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| motorcoach1 Posted From: 66.147.114.58 Rating: N/A |
if i can find it in my schematics it's a little circuit that goes in the sensor line to the oxygen sensor , it's fairly simple to build one. i heard Summit Racing has something like it too but have never looked . but it works like i said. in a gas engine it leans it out , in your case it advances the boost | ||
| motorcoach1 Posted From: 66.147.114.58 Rating: N/A |
Pete.. i sent you the diagram of the devise to your Email | ||
| Greg Peterson Posted From: 71.228.18.37 Rating: N/A |
The other concern I would have is what is the 100-ohm resistor doing to the sensor. I don’t know who makes the sensor but there is a good chance that it is a Motorola device (now Freescale) that is a strain gauge with built in temperature compensation and amplification. It looks like the 100-ohm resistor could be adding 20 to 35 ma in order to pull the voltage up from 1 volt to maybe 1.5v to give you the higher reading. The old sensors I used of this type had a MAX supply current of 10ma. They had a precision op amp on the output and had a test circuit load of from 10K to 50K. If it is this type of sensor you could be moose-ing the sensor and that could lead to eventual failure. You might try designing a resistor ladder network to give you the correct offset and matching. Another method is to add an op amp circuit with built in offset to give you the desired effect. You could even add some non-linear gain in order to achieve the max fuel where you want it. I don’t want to seem too critical of your effort and I am only trying to be helpful. Design reviews are part of my job. I try and keep our engineers in China, India, USA, and where ever the next low cost place is at, from causing a big design disaster. Good Luck | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Posted From: 72.40.3.160 Rating: N/A |
MotorCoach1 To the best of my knowledge - Detroit Diesel 2 cycle engines never used O2 sensors What you sent me was a simple 555 timer circiut to produce a square wave frequency - but it had no input from any type of sensor I also think you are confusing FORD technology with Detroit/Diesel FORD use a square wave pulse generating style sensors - like thier MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) - which can measure vacuum to boost - Manipulation of a Ford Turbo MAP 3 (3 BAR type for Turbo) would require modifing the freqency of the FORD stock map device so just exactly where do you think this silly HYRDOBOOST device would work in the D/D turbo Boost sensor circuit ?? Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| motorcoach1 Posted From: 66.147.114.58 Rating: N/A |
PETE on the oscllica scoop , off the sensors we got a saw tooth image so that brings me to the option of delivering a square pulse to the receiver( ecm or emu ), in order to image the chip set to verify to the prom thats the correct setting . the modulation was from my ity bitty mind that did this but it Maye not work for you. I'm just trying to help. the sensor just well be a resistor Base unit.the MAP sensing unit delivers a 5 volt message the the input as i see it so i think the input would be correct to the prom match calculating in the EMU . i don't want to send bad info but i thought it might be helpfully .. Pete i think your a real helpful person and work real hard to solve these type problems.. ps i'll just never help again ...thank you ..mike .. i'm just wrong all the time ..i'm narrow minded and stupid | ||
| motorcoach1 Posted From: 66.147.114.58 Rating: N/A |
Pete i still respect your input and and engineering skills | ||
| motorcoach1 Posted From: 66.147.114.58 Rating: N/A |
i just want to say Allison has to meet EPA standards and this is not in there best interest to do this thats why it is a slow start to be within the EPA fed standard.. ALLISON GIVES A COURSE FOR 5 DAYS. that you can take it , open to all to want be a tech , that doesn't mean your going to be a mechanic just have some knowledge of the operation. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Posted From: 72.40.3.160 Rating: N/A |
Motorcoach1 First - Sorry - next time I'll keep my attempt to inject humor into a serious post at a minimum- But Your comments about Eagle.Research's "Hydro-Boost" system that uses electroylsis to produce hydrogen and oxygen to increase engine horsepower / acceleration had nothing to do with what Bill and I were working on. Plus - I can not believe that any system like that can produce more energy output then input - that just defies the laws of physics and common sense I my humble opinion the HYDRO-BOOST - BROWN's GAS systems - Fuel from Water Systems - are all SMOKE AND MIRROR shows - pure snake oil The rest of the follow-on posts was my attempt to differentiate between Fords MAP sensors Frequency modulation technology and Detroits Diesels I/C straight 0-5 volt sensor standards - and how devices for one are not compatible with the other Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| Bruce Larsen Posted From: 72.20.68.7 Rating: N/A |
In my toolbox I keep - along with some tools - the following: * Baling Wire (for critical work) * Golf Tees (for blocking off vacuum lines) * Old Screwdrivers (for propping open 'things') You guys scare me. | ||
| sassbg (Eagleone)
Posted From: 24.255.214.92 Rating: N/A |
I have a 8V92 DDEC .At Idle Smoke Free .But on the road you mash the pedal and the Boost comes up I Get a lot of black smoke. Do i have a Bad Sensor? OR need more RPM? | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Posted From: 72.40.13.76 Rating: N/A |
EagleOne Patient tell his doc - Doc it hurts when I do this - Doc says - don't do that anymore Hey Pete - I MASH the pedal down and my bus smokes - Hey Eagle one - don't MASH the pedal down anymore sorry - just couldn't resist Put a voltmeter on the center pin of the Turbo Boost Sensor - at idle .5 to 1 volt - at full boost 4 to 4.5 volts Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| sassbg (Eagleone)
Posted From: 24.255.214.92 Rating: N/A |
Thank you Pete I`ll try that.So if it is not that reading Bad sensor? | ||
| Sammy (Sammy)
Posted From: 68.237.213.178 Rating: N/A |
Eagleone, even though you have an electronically controlled engine you must always do basic mechanical checks first. Check the air filter,housing,clamps and hoses for air intake to engine. Good luck. Sammy | ||
| jjrsmp12 Unregistered guest Posted From: 64.56.98.158 Rating: N/A |
I picked up a potentiometer and some additional 150 and 220 ohm resistors yesterday. I'll try some additional testing this week. Per Greg Peterson, I am also wondering what the additional amperage is doing to the circuit. Has anyone run this way for an extended period of time? It would be nice to know someone has 200K miles on this mod and no problems  | ||
| keith d dyson
Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.130.130.153 Rating: N/A |
hi there i played around with the turbo sensor in the uk to make our racetruck work better .this is what i did i cut the cable fron the return of the turbo sensor and connected it to the return of the throttle sensor so that when you push the throttle down the ecu automatically thinks there is turbo pressure .ddec 2 also takes a barometric reading when the ignition is switched on thru the turbo sensor you can fool this by having your foot hard down on the throttle to simulate higher/ lower altitudes when turning ignition on. release after turning on ignition engine works just fine although you could still black smoke if you buried the throtttle down hard hope this helps keith d dyson www.btra.org | ||
| Sammy (Sammy)
Registered Member Username: Sammy Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.213.178 Rating: N/A |
Hello Keith. How's the "hot rod' doing this season? Sammy | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 251 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.12.34 Rating: N/A |
Keith you wrote--> "hi there i played around with the turbo sensor in the uk to make our racetruck work better .this is what i did i cut the cable fron the return of the turbo sensor and connected it to the return of the throttle sensor so that when you push the throttle down the ecu automatically thinks there is turbo pressure .ddec 2 also takes a barometric reading when the ignition is switched on thru the turbo sensor you can fool this by having your foot hard down on the throttle to simulate higher/ lower altitudes when turning ignition on. release after turning on ignition engine works just fine although you could still black smoke if you buried the throtttle down hard hope this helps keith d dyson" I'm confused (kind of normal for me ) I don't understand - you connect the TURBO BOOST SENSOR return (A pin - which normally goes to ->circuit 452 / DDEC pin y2 to THROTTLE Position Sensor (A pin - circuit 952 / DDEC pin C3 what difference does that make - still goes to return or ground ?? what am I missing here ?? does the "mashing your foot down to fool the DDEC only work with your wiring change ?? Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| keith d dyson
Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.143.231.199 Rating: N/A |
sorry folks in the uk return means different to you guys +gals . we call return earth . the cable that you want is not the 5 volt supply or the return/earth but the other one . sorry i havent got my wiring diagrams to hand or i could give you exact pin numbers and cavity numbers. hi sammy i have been rushed off my feet this year with work and i havent had much time for the truck .improvements where made for the first race .new turbo was bought , first time out next week in germany hope it all goes well will email you soon |