| Author | Message | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Still lurking here and learning, and wondering whether or not any of you knew where in the Atlanta area there might be some classes in bus driving or at least somewhere that I could get checked out by an experienced driver and log a little time with a master driver before trying it solo. Passed up the opportunity this weekend to buy a running 4905 conversion in progress probably as cheaply as I'll ever find anything, but with the few problems that it did have,the air brakes, and the fact it had a 4-speed manual,it made me feel a bit uncomfortable trying to drive it the 500 miles home as a totally "virgin" bus driver. Any suggestions? Thanks Tom | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 63.232.212.33 Rating: N/A |
most of the big money problems you will hear,will be with automatic transmissons,get an old time truck driver to show you how to double clutch,or read about it here in an article already written,2 hours of proper training & you will love a standard,and not have to pay for the 7,000 to 10,000 trans.rebuilds that come WAY too often | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.65.122.187 Rating: N/A |
Oh boy, Here we go again. Knee replacement is more than $10k. Thomas, You will have to make a decision as to what type and model bus you want. Don't jump right in just because the price is right as you may regret buying someones halfway attempt of a conversion. Take the time to read through the archives to help you make a good choice in a coach. All buses have expensive parts no matter what it is. I have seen throw up bearings explode and cost big $$$. Also I have seen automatics crack housings like eggshells (big $$$). Dale | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the opinions so far, but just to clear it up I can drive a standard, so that's no problem in itself, it's just combine that with air brakes on a 40ft bus with a few mechanical issues and I don't quite feel that comfortable with my inexperience. Tom | ||
| John MC9 Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.217.107.197 Rating: N/A |
Ditto Dale! The standard tranny has some great features if shifted properly, but the newer automatics (740 incl) take the brains out of it. In the "old days", drivers had to know how to shift. These days, the lower paying jobs don't get the attention of those that are all that willing to learn a "craft". So an automatic is the choice of any bus operator, rather than have burned clutch discs, and lugged engine problems. Unless you've driven a bus with a standard transmission previously and are familiar with it's nuances, go for an automatic. I'm going to shoot my foot here, but..... buying a partially finished bus conversion, is like marrying a convicted felon; you ain't gonna' know the hurt, until you're hurt'n. DO NOT..... Rush into buying a used bus. It is a piece of heavy equipment, that carries a price tag much heavier than the equipment weighs. Take the bus to a bus garage and have it inspected, prior to purchase. Heed their warnings, unless you have the equipment and experience to do the needed repairs yourself. If you've taken it to the garage, you do not fit the above. Life's short; finances are shorter. | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 63.233.42.7 Rating: N/A |
good to hear you already know how to double clutch...uhhhhhh you did say that didn't you | ||
| Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8)
Registered Member Username: Chuckmc8 Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 68.211.132.224 Rating: N/A |
Thomas, I am 30 miles west of Atlanta and can help you. Clik on my name on the profile and youll get my email and can see my bus page. Chuck Lott | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Bob, it's been a while but my dad used to have this cantakerous old grain truck that required some double clutching. After 20+ years, of automatic Caddy's I would need practice before I would feel comfortable jumping on todays highways. And I've never driven w/ air brakes. Thanks, Tom | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, Thanks for the offer of an assist, I'll check out your bus pages and e-mail you. Again,Thanks | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 63.232.252.94 Rating: N/A |
The HIWAY is not really the problem,getting it around corners in town ,& in & out of a wal-mart parking lot without killing someone is where you need the training,once you get it on the highway,a 100 pounds will lift off your shoulders..'if' you get a nice hiway coach,,in town,if you are going to make a right turn,put your left tires on the dash line,about a block before you get there,this way,you don't scare the four wheelers if they get used to you being on the dash like...and always swing wide,on all corners,these do not bend in the middle,like a big truck,and ,1st.2nd, and third are "intown" gears....4th is when you get on the big road | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Bob, very good advice Tom | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 979 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.113.23 Rating: N/A |
Tom - Bob's comments are good ones, and Buswarrior may also chime in here, as he's still doing this professionally, but I'm going to share some driver training thoughts with you from my 25+ years in the bus industry, primarily in Operations Management and Training. So here goes: ** Whenever you're driving a bus, you have to remember that when making turns, you're controlling where the rear axle goes, so you must use your mirrors throughout the turning process. ** When making RH turns, set your vehicle up 18 - 36" away from and parallel to the curb. This will prevent any four-wheelers and/or motorcyclists from attempting to squeeze by. ** Pull straight forward into the intersection until the centerline of the front axle has cleared the curbline of the street you're turning onto, before beginning your actual turn. This is hard for some folks to comprehend initially, but you have to remember that you're sitting four feet in front of the steering axle, so you have to wait to start your turn. ** While making the turn, watch your RH mirror as you observe the tracking of the back axle. Keep that axle 18 - 36" away from the curb at all times. (Tip: Go downtown and spend some time watching the transit buses make RH turns, especially the rear axle's tracking.) ** You must also watch for traffic and other obstacles out the front windshield at the same time you're watching your mirror. This takes a little practice, obviously. Now, here's a key point: If traffic is such that you cannot continue making the turn w/o jumping the curb or hitting a vehicle in the oncoming lane, STOP! Just stop and wait. Let the other traffic figure out how to get around you. So what if you tie things up for a minute or two - better that than filling out insurance claim forms. ** DO NOT, under any circumstances, swing the front end of your bus to the left when making a RH turn, especially if you have traffic in the lane next to you on the left. If you do, chances are very good that you can actually cause a head-on collision, as the car on your left perceives you moving into his/her lane and moves to their left to avoid you. ** If you are making a RH turn into a narrow driveway or street, where the turning radius of the coach is such that you cannot set it up 18 - 36" away from the curb beforehand and still make the turn, there are a couple of options: 1. Go around the block in such a way so that you approach the street/driveway from the opposite direction, thereby making a LH turn, which gives you more room, or 2. Wait far enough back from the turn until traffic clears, then set yourself up far enough to the left, even if it means crossing the center divider, to give yourself the clearance needed. If you must do it this way, USE YOUR MIRRORS!!! Watch very, very carefully for traffic sneaking up on your right - they will attempt to pass you. (In San Francisco, I have actually had to go clear across the street to the opposite curb in order to make a RH turn into a narrow street. Needless to say, that was very entertaining for my passengers!!  ) ** While running around town, keep the LH side of your coach about the width of your hand off the lane marker to your left. This will keep the RH side of your coach 3 - 4 feet from vehicles parked at the curb. If you don't have the clearance on your right, straddle the lane divider. Again, you may frustrate the four-wheelers, but it's better than insurance claim forms. ** Mirror adjustment is extremely important, both the main flat glass and the convex spots. Both LH & RH mirrors should be adjusted so that when you look in them, the side of the bus is visible only in the first 1 inch of the glass closest to the body, and tilted slightly so that you can just barely see the top of the rear axle fenderwell at the bottom. I've seen some drivers adjust their mirrors so that half the visible glass is looking at the side of the bus - leaving a HUGE blind spot. Move them out so you can see what's around you. The convex spot mirrors should be adjusted (if possible) to cover the area not visible in the flat glass. ** Another thought on mirror adjustment: Move the RH mirror arm over far enough so that the lower RH corner of the flat glass matches the curve of the lower RH corner of the front windshield, when viewed from the driver's seat. (On some coaches, you may not be able to do this, due to lack of clearance when the door is open.) ** GMC Buffalos (4107, 4107, 4903, 4905) all have wet-clutches if they're still a stick-shift. These have their own quirks - use the search utility at the bottom of the page for tips on shifting these beasts, as lots have been written about them previously. ** All coaches with automatic transmissions are a lot easier than the manual gearbox units. Simply step on the throttle and steer, as opposed to really "driving" the bus - at least to us old-timers. You should still shift the automatic trans manually when climbing, however, not only for better performance, but also to reduce the risk of cooling issues. Finally, once you get your new toy, for airfare and hotel expenses, FAT > ATL, I'd be glad to spend a Saturday with you for a full day of driver training, from pre-trip inspections to actual behind-the-wheel stuff. This offer is open to all busnuts, btw, providing I can fit it into my regular work schedule. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
RJ, That was a great tutorial. Certainly a different driving perspective than that of a car. Oh, and thanks for the driver training offer, I'll let you know when I buy the beast! Thanks Tom | ||
| Randy Davidson Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.82.9.83 Rating: N/A |
Very, very good RJ. Thanks much. | ||
| JR
Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.132.238.127 Rating: N/A |
Excellent how-to-drive-a-bus manual RJ! I think I'll print that and read it 'til I can remember it. The only part I easily remember is to wait on the suckers to get out of my way during a long RH turn...I got that down pretty good. Re automatics vs manual...the resale of autos is much easier...and it ain't the double clutching and such that'll get you (it could, but), it's getting the manual tran GM coaches started uphill from dead stop...forward or reverse. They aren't geared for dinking in tight spots. Smoking the clutch will be the most common issue with manual bus transmissions. If I had a manual, the first thing would be to install a truck type transmission with some "get started" gears. Course that trans mod ain't gonna happen in a GM coach. Autos will be a better choice. And maybe your spousal component could drive an automatic in an emergency. JR | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1627 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 70.105.151.228 Rating: N/A |
On my 4104 with manual tranny the proper procedure for starting off from a stop was to just drop the clutch with the engine idling. Never any slipping of the clutch as is common in automobiles. I got this advice from old time bus drivers and it worked like a charm. The engine would slow down a couple of hundred rpm and then pick right back up. Not even much of a jerk as I recall. Richard | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 63.233.42.26 Rating: N/A |
you guys are scarey dump the clutch have the little woman drive yeah, I know, I will hear about,'I let my wife drive'. don't care much about the kids ,do ya' | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 980 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.113.23 Rating: N/A |
Richard has described what's known as a "dead throttle start". The terminology varies, but the basics are similar: You let the clutch out smoothly thru the take-up point without adding any throttle until the clutch is fully engaged, then add the throttle. It does not mean that you let off the clutch suddenly and cause the entire drive line to jerk violently - smoothness is the operative word here. Think about the glass of red wine. . . (shameless plug for my article on shifting elsewhere on this site.) Mr. Greenwood - get over yourself regarding having women drive. Of the 250+ drivers I trained during my career, some of the very best were the women, several of whom would beat the pants off the male drivers in our annual driver's competition. Their safety record was generally much better than the men's, too. Not to mention, of course, their far superior passenger-relations skills, also. Don't misunderstand me here. There are women who choose not to drive, or even attempt to drive, these things (or a Fiberglass & Twigs Rig either, for that matter). That's their choice. It doesn't mean that they cannot, nor that, should the situation arise, that they would not, drive them. If you haven't learned by now, females with children can and will do everything they can to protect their young when the situation calls for it. More than once I've had a new trainee tell me that she never would have attempted to drive "something this big" if her husband/boyfriend/male significant other was attempting to teach her, and that comment spoke volumes about their relationship. Something to think about. . . FWIW & HTH (Message edited by rjlong on July 18, 2006) | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1628 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 66.168.162.246 Rating: N/A |
RJ, yes, you are, as always, correct. Dump the clutch is probably a little extreme and causes a little jerk possibly which is not good for the drive train. He indicated that a little jerk was better than sitting there with the clutch partially engaged and the engine revving up was better. He tried to explain to me that as soon as the clutch starts to engage, then smoothly let it the rest of the way out with no pressure on the accelerator pedal. Absolutely a minimum of slipping as is common in an automobile. Even taking off on a grade seemed to work this way. Richard | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 835 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 65.92.125.98 Rating: N/A |
Hello Thomas. You are in the right place for help! RJ, as usual, leaves no stone unturned, and few words left for me to add. Which is good! A few thoughts: I cannot over-emphasize that the driver of anything should not swing out wide in the last few feet before a turn. If you need to be wide, get out there early, without scaring anyone and line it up square, that way you are using the same consistant set of turning experience every time. If the bus is cocked on some angle from the driver throwing it wide, every turn is from a different angle, and the learning takes a lot longer. Taking turns wide is like grocery shopping with a big wad of cash in your pocket: put anything you want in the cart and there's change left over. But if you start off without enough.... As for women drivers, if she gets it in her head to drive a bus or truck, she will drive it better than most men. By better, I mean, she will have a care and control, and will quickly develop a keen precision that puts the avergae male in the same vehicle to shame. She won't be wailing around corners showing off her feelings of inadequacy, and she won't pretend to know what she's doing. Men can't stay within their capacities, women excel at staying within theirs. Usually when a women screws up, a man goaded her into it. Sorry fellows, from what I've seen in my professional career, and the fact my mother ran a mean table saw and outboard motor in her day, I'd hire a woman to drive my bus or truck before a fellow. Perhaps the women in some men's lives have decided to stay out of the game and feign a lack of compentency to make us feel good and fool us into doing all the work? Too bad you aren't up here Thomas, I'd take you out for a spin and then you'd be all set! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Buswarrior for the additional perspective and the reinforcement of the advice on turning. I'm sure I'll get used to it after a bit behind the wheel of whatever machine I buy. Thanks Tom | ||
| John MC9 Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.217.106.185 Rating: N/A |
Some of dem Canadian wymen could de-emasculate Bill Clinton! Beware! | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 63.232.252.76 Rating: N/A |
I was NOT talking about professionaly trained women drivers B.J. I was taking about untrained,'wives' that are takeing over because the husband is tired,they have no idea,what 30,000 pounds & 40 feet of bus can do,or how to stop it. I have a right to my opinion,reguardless of who you think you are | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 981 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.113.23 Rating: N/A |
And you completely missed the point of the second part of my commentary about women drivers, as well as what my colleague Buswarrior added. . . Taking some time with your significant other to teach her the basic fundamentals of how to operate and handle these rigs is always a good idea, so that she will feel confident being able to get back home safely, should the need arise. Yes, Bob, you do have the right to your own opinion, and I will always agree to disagree (when necessary) in a cordial, professional manner. If you'll note above, I completely agreed and complemented you on your comments to Thomas two posts above my first one Sunday. Perhaps I was a little harsh with yesterday's post, to which I apologize. The intention was to educate, not infuriate, and poor word choice unfortunately created the latter, not the former. . . Sorry. FWIW. . . | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 837 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.68.34.173 Rating: N/A |
Hello Bob. Sorry, I'm a little testy about males who discriminate against women. Best thing for having a less than confident spouse take a turn at the wheel, is someone else's wife to take them out when we aren't around. Or RJ or me, if we're in the neighbourhood. If someone can figure out the insurance angle, RJ and I would be pleased to offer co-pilot driving lessons at Bussin' 07! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 65.150.45.218 Rating: N/A |
well,I think a driveing seminar,or lessons would be a good idea,at all bus meets,the man that started this thread was a big enough man to admit he needed more knollege,most wives get behind the wheel thinking,,'it's just a big car'. think you could get around the insurance part,by them signing a waiver.& maybe stay on a large/closed for the week-end parking lot,most of the stuff we are talking about is 5 & 10 mile an hour stuff.The lady last week is new,& I was routeing her around big hills,like grapevine & Indio,& trying to keep her from going thru a town of 15 million people,& other guys chimed in & said that was a wondeful route,I believe,when you are a beginer,you need to do the easy stuff first,with more experience,the hairly stuff | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Smashing idea on the driving lessons Bob! I'd sign up tomorrow! An insurance expert would better know, but I'd bet there would be a way that each "student" could purchase a temporary insurance bond to cover the bus and other liabilities for the duration of thier lesson time. As I have found out, there seem to be many experienced drivers here willing to help you learn, so perhaps even a semi-organized regional registry of those willing to perform such services? Am I out of line here? Tom | ||
| Charles Seaton Unregistered guest Posted From: 170.28.136.41 Rating: N/A |
Boy, RJ. That is some terrific advice. Have never driven a bus professionally, but have owned historic buses for the last 15 years. was taught to drive by professional drivers, who always stresed the S turn when making a right turn. A few years ago my job (a large transit agency) purchased a bus operator simulator and I took the same course our bus operators take. One of the first things I learned was that the S turn was out and the right turn was to be made just as you described it. And for Thomas, right now I have a fishbowl suburban which has the same transmission and clutch (wet) as the 4905 you were looking at. I had to go out very early on Sunday mornings in order to shift it smoothly. if you really want to do it, it will be fun. If you don't it will be a chore. Keep that in mind. a 4905 with a V730 will be alot more fun if you don't want to double clutch. | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Registered Member Username: Jwsmythe Post Number: 246 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 63.138.16.2 Rating: N/A |
RJ, Those are great tips. I've driven many (MANY) shorter trucks (like 24' and 26' moving van), with and without trailers. I was a little nervous the first time I climbed up in the drivers seat of my bus. I went through all the differences in my head, but I still hadn't driven one before. I brought a truck driver with me, but he said the same thing. "I've never driven one of these before." My bus was parked between other buses at the RTS yard in Gainesville, FL. Once I got my own license plate, they pretty much told me "It's yours, get it out of our lot." I looked at the space available, and asked them "How the hell do I get it out of this space?" They told me I would have to pull straight forward, and then do a little back and turn number to get it going through the parking lot. Once I got into the lane, I was home free. As it turned out, I gave a little jiggle to the steering wheel to see how it would turn, then I pulled straight through to the last second, and spun the wheel hard right (it was cocked to the left in the space). I spun it around in the lot, missed the obsticals in front of me by about a foot, and I was sitting straight in the lane. Simply, an RTS drives like a dream in comparison to a 24' or 26' moving truck. Turn the wheel, and it does what you tell it. Of course, what you describe about turning still applies and a bit more. Always drive through the intersection, and spin the wheel hard once you're at the point of no return. It'll swing the nose around, without dragging the rear wheels across the curb. Somehow, I made it through narrow city streets, through a construction zone, through a few interstate interchanges, and even backing down a very rural driveway, I didn't even nudge anything. I'm sure for anyone who hasn't driven anything tall, wide, or long, it'll be a challenge, but getting practice in a parking lot is a great thing. As I see it, it's still easier than driving a 26' moving van. And what you said about watching in FRONT of you as well as in the MIRRORS really applies. Somehow, the bigger the vehicle, the less other drivers can see you. I don't know how they can miss something 10' tall and 40' long, but they will, and do something stupid around you. Rather than crushing and killing some idiot in a Yugo, stomping on the brakes and blocking traffic for a minute while they get out of your way is prefered. I've been swinging into gas stations before, and had cars nose right up to me while I was trying to swing in. Somehow they can't figure out that I'm making as tight a turn as I can, and they thing putting the nose of their vehicle right up to mine is helpful. They seem to misunderstand what various finger gestures mean also. All my driving of various vehicles has given me serious respect for truck drivers. I'm that guy that will give any trucker and/or bus driver extra room. I have to assume that they appreciate it. | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I think I've decided that the auto transmission would be the best option for me in a vehicle that size. It seems from all the info I've seen here that a driver already has enough variables going without introducing one more. I'm still not sure exactly which model bus I will buy, but the automatic is a sure thing. Now, if I can get JW to refresh my memory on the use of the correct finger, I'll be ready to hit the road.... Thanks all, Tom | ||
| Roderick W. Chandler (Rod)
Registered Member Username: Rod Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 207.155.61.31 Rating: N/A |
If you are a gear head there is nothing more enjoyable than driving an old spicer 4 speed.(Does not describe me) I have driven them and they can be fun. Learning curve is a little larger but satisfaction can also be greater. My Opinion only | ||
| Thomas Weeks
Unregistered guest Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Rod, I've yet to drive a bus (won't be long now, though), but in a car or small truck I do actually enjoy a standard transmission on the highway. In the city though,I find it can be a bummer. Tom | ||
| Bob Greenwood Unregistered guest Posted From: 65.150.44.135 Rating: N/A |
you will think "BUMMER" when the auto goes out 1000 miles from home | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1638 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 66.168.162.246 Rating: N/A |
Bob, I think it is highly unlikely that the tranny will fail. I do not recall ever reading on any board about someone having a total failure on the road. I suspect they are few and far between. Richard | ||
| Bob Boyce (Bob_rts)
Registered Member Username: Bob_rts Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.44.207.135 Rating: N/A |
When the Allison automatic started to slip in high gear in my latest skoolie, she was really loaded and had a travel trailer hitched up. She had no problem making to the next city, and to a location where I could unhitch the TT and find a phone to dredge up the local tranny shop. I drove her to the shop. The tranny had been recently rebuilt by a GMC truck dealership in West Palm Beach FL, at the same time a brand new engine was put it. Some flunkie had forgotten to connect the lubrication pump in the tranny. Despite the severe damage, she did get me off of the interstate. $2650 and a week later, she was rebuilt right and I was on my way. I have put thousands of miles on her, hauling heavy loads, and she hasn't let me down since. My first schoolie had a manual and a 2 speed rear axle, so I learned to drive with the manual tranny. I do have to agree that the automatic would be easier to start out with. Bob | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.40.26 Rating: N/A |
bowyer,please go to the vs-2 question about 15 clicks up & tell the guy the transmission just needs praying over | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1640 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 66.168.162.246 Rating: N/A |
Bob, please read my response again and I stand by the statement that it is highly unlikely for a total failure on the road. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.232.212.154 Rating: N/A |
also tell Peg about four clicks down,that it's highly unlikely,even tho they have been working on the auto. for over a year and spent 6000 & it STILL won't go |