| Author | Message | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: |
Ok, I know this one's a complex question in a sense, but can anyone give me an "average" annual cost figure for coach ownership. Exclude fuel and insurance from the picture for obvious reasons, but just general maintanence? Not counting any major emergency repairs, and no "toys" or upgrades, but just a general estimate of annual cost to keep a solid bus maintained on the road for personal use? Thanks everyone for bearing with me through my newbie phase as I learn and move closer to joining you in coach ownership. Tom Weeks | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
Registered Member Username: H3jim Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 68.6.177.90 Rating: |
I've been spending about $2,000 a year. But some of that will depend on how many miles you put on. I have been driving 10,000 to 15,000 miles a year. 1995, series 60. I have the dealer put it on a lift each year and inspect everything. I like a well maintained vehicle, so I have them replace everything that needs it, from new angle box seals, new radiator expansion tank, new steering dampers, several air bags, some leveling valves, charge the bus air, regular oil changes and all filters, lube jobs etc. (thats over the last 3 visits). I have no idea if this is representative of others or not. I know that this practice, while more expensive than doing it all myself, has saved me twice from being broken down on the side of the freeway - and thats worth a lot to me! The dealer always has the parts on hand. I have a bus friend that puts about 20,000 miles a year and tows a 15,000 lb trailer. Has an MCI-8, he says he spends about $8k a year to maintain it. (Message edited by h3jim on August 01, 2006) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.76 Rating: |
Thomas - You may consider me rude now, and there will be more "in-depth" comments to follow, from others... To put it as simply as one can? If you have to ask, you shouldn't buy a bus to convert. (Think many thou$and$) | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: |
Thanks, Jim, for a good answer. John, I'm much more amused by your answer than offended by it. I ask my clients that same question all of the time  . My serious response to that one is that I actually don't "have" to ask, just like to have a good understanding of the parameters involved in anything before I jump in. Thanks all for the good answers. Tom | ||
| Phil Cegielski (Rt4957)
Registered Member Username: Rt4957 Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.133 Rating: |
My big expense is Storage @ 121.00 a month Each month the bill comes the wife asks "When are you getting rid of dat stupid bus?",,so make sure your significant other is with you about buying a bus. Mine is just a regular transit with no plans of conversion so ot sure of that expense,,but regular maintenance is in Gallons not Quarts so that is something to think about, I bought my Bus for $900 in `94 Rebuilt Engine 8500.00 (8V71,other had cracked block) Batteries every few years 350.(2 8D marine type) Tires were 2200 for 6 (Kumho R225 radials) I was on limited income when I bought mine but was determined to save it as it`s a nice bus (In my Opinion). Hope my costs give you a small idea Phil / Rt4957  | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member Username: Blue_velvet Post Number: 359 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.19.152.144 Rating: |
Tom, I've now had four busses in three years. Some were good buys and others not so much. When I bought Bus #3 last year (a GMC4106) she had gone nowhere for about 15 years, and I had to put about $3k in tires, airbags, hoses, etc. , and LOTS of time. I learned alot with her. I then put over 8k miles on her and my family got to see 13 states. All told, she was one of the good buys. Our newest bus had an out-of-frame rebuild less than 4k miles ago (3k by me). Before our next major outing, I plan to repack the front wheel bearings and give it a lube job (maybe a hundred $ and a weekend). It also needs new steer tires and shocks (a grand), but I knew that before I bought her. After that, I shouldn't have to do much other than change the oil ($60) and filter ($20) and maybe change a set or two of fuel filters ($30/set) for the rest of the year. If you buy a good coach that's had a good maint. record, you're WAY ahead of the curve. If you're handy and can do most of the Preventative Maint. part yourself, you will save a LOT of cash. Well-maintained, regularly-driven busses will cost less to maintain than gasser "sticks 'n staples" rigs IF you plan on putting some miles on them. The cost per mile goes WAY down when you drive them a lot. It's only when something breaks that you'll start hemorraging cash in short order. That's been my experience so far, anyways. Your mileage may (well indeed) vary... because some days the Bus Gods are smiling and some days they're just pis*ed. Good luck, Brian Brown Longmont, CO 4108-216 w/ V730 (presently in the Bus Gods' graces, knock on wood) | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Rrc62)
Registered Member Username: Rrc62 Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.142.130.36 Rating: |
Also depends on what you can do yourself. If you have to pay someone every time a wrench needs turning, it will be expensive. I rebuilt the front end on my MC9 myself for 1/3 what they charged me to do the front end on my GMC Suburban. It's all labor. $60, $70, $80 per hour starts adding up FAST. Ross | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Phil and Brian, many thanks for sharing your experiences. Storage would currently be an issue for me as well, as my street is so curvy they can't get the city bus down here. Phil, that is indeed a lovely bus. Transits of thar era still had class, something that seems to be missing in some I see today....Brian, fortunatly (well, sometimes not quite so, but)I have no wife or kids to influence my decisions. Traded them in when I bought the last car,that's how I can afford the bus ...seriously, though, from what I'm being told so far, annual cost doesn't seem that bad, Thanks guys Tom | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.165 Rating: |
Thomas - Actually, when I first started posting here (under a slightly different name), a "former" poster said exactly that to me! I wasn't insulted either, but he had gone on to tell me some of the expenses involved... It ain't cheap. I pay $500 for storage per year, but that may soon change to twice that. And since my MC9 leaks oil, I'll have to get my rear main seal replaced soon.... $1,800. Otherwise any new storage facility will throw me and the leaker out... The facility I'm in now, is sand/dirt. Oh yeah... to get wenched out of one sandy parking spot that wouldn't support the weight of the bus, set me back nearly $250. It took the guy 8 minutes. The major problem with storage facilities, is their refusal to allow any work to be performed on their property. I'm fortunate where I am now, since it's also a storage facility for commercial fishermen, and they require space that allows them to do work on their boats and traps. Make sure where you're about to store your bus, allows you to do work on it also. I brought my MC9 into a local bus garage for a complete oil and lube... almost $600. They didn't touch the air filter. Where does it end? It doesn't. It's cheaper to do it yourself, but it's heavy equipment, not a motorhome built on a light truck chassis. To do some jobs myself, I had to buy tools to suit the job. The air over hydraulic jack sells for an arm and a leg, except at Harbor freight... $65 on sale! From Grainger, it'd be around $400. I still haven't jacked it up, due to the dry sand conditions where it's parked. Unlike the commercial motorhome, I have to buy a torque wrench that reads 600 to 800 lbs, to make sure the lug nuts are tight... Ever price one of those puppies? I have a Matco that only reads clockwise... useless for my bus... That was nearly $250 wasted (I should never have taken the flea mkt guy's word...) There isn't anything cheap as far as parts, labor, or tools, with a bus. It's a big toy, and it takes even bigger bucks to play with it. Now, on the "up-side", . . . . . . . | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: |
Ross...(and everyone else) more good advice regarding reducing costs by doing it yourself when you can. I will probably be ok with that, except on major engine or transmission work. John, I'm fortunate that I will have an "understanding" storage arrangement. I have a friend who owns a storage facility who is also into...buses (and boats). Cheap? Doesn't sound like it, but nothing is. From what I see, diesel is around 2.87-3.20 per gallon here, and milk is $4.00 a gallon...we should be glad buses don't run on milk. I'm just looking for manageable...cheap died years ago. Now where's that upside you mentioned Thanks, Tom | ||
| JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member Username: Jc_alacoque Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 154.11.98.45 Rating: |
Mine is a 1957 MCI Courier 96. Owned it for a year and a half now, and I'm spending about $2000 on it per year. I think that figure will go down quite a bit now because I'm caught up with all the things that need done on any used vehicule. I do most everything myself: that's part of the fun with the hobby. Except when I get stumped (injector rack, governor)and I have to go to the DD dealer. But I learn from them and I can set that up myself now. Plus I found a DD service manual which is great. Everything works well now, so the only thing left is regular maintenance, so that's only a few hundred bucks a year. As long as nothing big breaks. Cross fingers. | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Rrc62)
Registered Member Username: Rrc62 Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.142.130.12 Rating: |
"Ross...(and everyone else) more good advice regarding reducing costs by doing it yourself when you can. I will probably be ok with that, except on major engine or transmission work." All you need to pull the engine and trans out of an MCI is a big forklift or a tractor...Anything you can use to tug the engine trans assembly out the back. Or...You could build a dolly, set the dolly under the cradle, lower the bus and roll the engine/trans out the back. These things were designed to be easy to fix. They don't make money for the operators if they are sitting in the shop getting serviced. The $600 oil change/lube job is a classic example. You can do that yourself for a fraction of that. I'd say 2/3 of that $600 is labor. The $1800 rear main is almost all labor. Assuming they replace a few other parts they find bad along the way, what are you looking at for parts? $200 max? When us ordinary people buy big rigs like this, it's easy to be intimidated by the sheer size of a bus, but don't be. The systems are fairly simple, especially on the older rigs. No ccomputers or any of that garbage. Most people say they can't do the work because they don't have the right tools, but they are willing to pay rediculous labor rates. In most cases you can buy the right tools for less money than you'de pay for labor for that particular job. I've never owned a bus before, so most of the repair jobs are a first for me. I ask question, read manuals, pay attention when I take it apart and put it back together the same way. The essentials for basic maintanance are a 20 ton jack, a compressor and a good 3/4" impact. With those tools and some basic hand tools, you can do just about all of your routine maintanance. Without a compressor and impact, you'll need a torque wrench and a torque multiplier...Both very expensive items and only real useful on your lugs. A torque wrench is handy, but a torque stick for your impact is much cheaper. More power to anyone who can pay todays labor rates, but if I had to do that, I couldn't afford to own the bus. I can't count the number of simple jobs that would have cost me $500 - $1000 to have done where in most cases, the parts costs have been trivial. | ||
| Charles Seaton Unregistered guest Posted From: 170.28.136.41 Rating: |
Hey Phil, great looking Flx. Tom, also the owner of one seated antique coach and have owned as many as three at one time. Greatest expense was storage, $75.00 apiece and then yearly maintenance (oil, filter changes etc.) Never had problems with the stick shift suburbans but had a couple of problems with VH automatic in a 58 old look. That was the major expense. Oh, and don't forget tires. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.41.137 Rating: |
The cost of owning a bus,depends on it's prevous maintenance,wheather they took care of it ,or just drove it | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
Registered Member Username: Floridacracker Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 65.33.17.106 Rating: |
Hi Tom, If I was a gambling man I would say plan on $2000.00 a year for the first couple of years. After. that it could be a couple hundred to who knows, depends on your luck I say that because you probably will need to replace tires, air lines, diaphrams, and all sorts of misc parts. And I am not getting into major engine/ tranny work. I do all my own work so that 2,000 is a parts budget. I think unless you have a major problem you will be within budget. Also I tend to replace/rebuild anything that is in my way when I am doing a repair under the coach. I call it "Once and Done". Mainly because I would rather fix it in my driveway than on the road. Also after your on the boards for awhile you see a pattern of things that seem to go wrong over and over. Those are the ones I don't miss when I am working on the bus. When I was working on my drivers side DD3, I decided to change the air bags on that side as they were a little old and had a slow leak when sitting, the shocks were almost new or I would have done those too. Plus after I drug the wheels off the first time I had a whole new respect for the guys at the tire shop and bar a mishap, I wont be behind that wheel for quite awile. Best of luck, Cliff | ||
| Jon W. Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.252.165.154 Rating: |
We have put over 250,000 miles on our coaches and since I do all my own maintenance and repairs I can give you some items to consider. Others have touched on storage, and you can estimate your own costs of insurance, plates, fuel, etc. You may not consider modifications or upgrades but some will be inevitable if you are in this for the long term. You may need an engine or transmission. Even if things look great now, and it seems unlikely, plan on replacing one or both if you are going to keep the coach for a long time. If you get lucky you may not have to spend the money, but if a piece of truck spring gets kicked up into your transmission or you find a crakced cylinder head you may be exposed to the expense. Plan on a full maintenance every 5000 miles. Motorhome use is what I consider severe service due to the lack of frequent steady miles. Coolant every two year should be planned, tires every six, batteries every five, transmission fluids every 25000, a windshield every two years on average, servicing each AC unit at least once every ten years, airbags every ten years or less, brake chambers (lets be conservative here) every five years, brake linings every 150,000 to 180,000 miles, air lines every ten years, and a myriad of little things, from light bulbs to gauges (speedometers for example), hub seals, leveling valves, ride height valves, etc. all the time. I don't want this to sound negative. You can spend the time and money to stay on top of things at the first sign of a need, or you can gamble, save a ton of money and possibly end up on a tow truck hook. Your choice. There are so many variables that nobody will agree completely with someone else because of different choices. If your coach is newer, or have been highly maintained you can stretch the intervals for a long time before something bites you in the butt. You can have a coach in poor repair and be oblivious to all kinds of problems, and run it until things start to completely fail. In the end the costs are almost always determined by the owner and how he maintains a coach, uses the coach, and his perspective on what is acceptable and what is not. | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
I can't thank all of you enough for the wonderful information! Thanks Tom | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member Username: Bobofthenorth Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 204.83.31.130 Rating: |
I think you are looking at 5-10% of the value of the coach for straight up maintenance items. Plus whatever storage costs you incur. The higher end of the range for lower valued coaches & more if the coach has been neglected. I distinguish between "repairs" and "maintenance". Maintenance is stuff that has to be done every year just to keep even - repairs are things that break because you didn't do the maintenance or because they got old. Plan on spending up to 20% of the cost of a new-to-you coach just to get it ready to use, regardless of what the previous owner told you. | ||
| Jon W. Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.252.165.154 Rating: |
Bob, I think that is dependent on the age and condition of the coach. A 3 year old Prevost is unlikely to require anything more than oil changes, a lube or two and some fluids on occasion. But a 20 year old Prevost not regularly maintained could easily eat money, especially if the planets line up and a lot of things go wrong at once. | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member Username: Bobofthenorth Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 204.83.31.130 Rating: |
Sorry Jon but I disagree. That 3 year old Prevost is still going to need tire & brake maintenance on the coach plus all the miscellaneous house systems need regular care & feeding. And your list of "minor" maintenance items accounts for some significant dollars by itself. I stand by my 5-10% number. | ||
| Jon W. Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.252.165.154 Rating: N/A |
Bob, I will speak to this solely based on my experience and knowledge of current market prices. Your 5-10% number suggests a three year old coach will cost around $60,000 in annual maintenance, but a 10 year old coach will cost around $20,000. in annual maintenance. Logic suggests as a coach ages its maintenance costs increase yet your formula says the reverse. Sticking with the theme, a 3 year old coach is going to have around 30,000 to 45,000 miles and a ten year old coach may have 100,000 to 150,000 miles. I submit that the older coach will need the brake pads and the newer coach will not. I put in my earlier post a list of things that require maintenance based on information from this site and others, the Prevost shop manual, and personal experience. At three years old a bus is 2 years away from batteries, brake chambers, and three years away from tires. At ten years old a coach may need everything zeroed out just to create a baseline for future maintenance. There is a reason why a three year old coach costs a lot more than a 10 year old coach. The owners are exposed to different levels of costs. On the newer coach the owner has a high depreciation, but he can afford that because his coach is likely trouble free for quite a while. The owner of an older coach has less depreciation, but will spend a lot of dollars on maintenance. The markets are very good at valuing things and taking into consideration all of the factors. If the coach in question is 30 or forty years old it will have a very low resale price because the costs of repairs and maintenance will be even higher than for a 10 year old coach. That is not an indictment of older coaches, but a recognition of how age factors into the value and why. I can stand by my figures because I have had coaches less than three years old and as old as 17 years old and I owned them continuously so I went through the aging process, along with doing 100% of the work on them. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.143 Rating: |
After reading and re-reading both Jon and Bob's last comments, I think I see where some of these topics can get confusing. For me - comparing a "new bus" to an "old bus", is comparing one that over ten years old, to one that's well over ten, twenty or thirty years old.. To compare a bus three years old, to any old relic most of can afford to buy and gleefully tear apart, simply can't equate. Why try to compare the cost of "3 year old bus vs "10 year old" bus, for the little use any "camper" would see? Where's the massive savings? I paid 8 grand for a 1979 MC9. The bus was in charter service until the day I bought it. It would have continued to be run for charter service if I didn't buy it. It needs numerous repairs... rear main seal, radius arm bushings.. air leaks.. Power steering leak. All the usual &%$%$#@. With a modest amount of repairs, even if all commercially done, my total cost would be around 14 grand. I could have bought a newer 1985 - 1990+ model for 20-30k or more, but what could I possibly have saved by doing so? A newer model being retired from service earlier, should give any buyer reason to wonder why it's being retired earlier. When a bus isn't deemed reliable for continued service, it's sold out of the market. When all other "part-time" charter outfits and Church groups turn it down, it's left to the bus-crazed fools like me, and you... to decide if it's good enough for our purposes. It's difficult to set a dollar amount to that. It all depends on the standard you set. I can live with some black smoke, 50% tires, and sloppy steering... until I can get the repairs done. If I spent the amount needed to buy a bus 10 years old or newer? Inevitable repairs would eat my credit card and spit out my soul. (Just more fodder for thought) | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
John, you make a perfectly sensible argument here and its an issue that I weigh constantly every time I look for conversion candidates. While everyone here has told me to buy the best raw bus I can afford, and I adhere to this theory, the kicker is "afford". I think I'd rather buy an older bus with the right engine/tranny combo that someone has cared for regularly and is generally roadworthy than a newer, flashier model that I pay way more for but may need major service sooner. Tom | ||
| Greg Peterson (Gpmci102)
Registered Member Username: Gpmci102 Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 71.228.18.37 Rating: |
I would check out the MCI 102A3 and C3 buses that are on the market now. They have integral power steering that the older MCI 9 did not have. They are available with a factory installed 8v-92ta. The 102” size helps a lot in the floor plan layout. You can find some that are in very good mechanical condition with rebuilt engines and tranny of 100k or less. I think this is because larger companies that wanted to go to a 45’ bus for economic reasons owned these buses. (Bus drivers are not cheap and you can make more money per run if you haul more passengers. This may have justified upgrading to a 45’ before the old 102 was completely shot). The companies that are driving old MCI 9 are probably small and the price of a newer bus is the overriding factor until the old bus cost too much to maintain. You don’t want to buy one of these wore out buses because as already stated the cost to totally rebuild it will be very expensive and if you just try and run you will have to deal with breaking down out on the road. If you find one of the 102 that are in good shape then I don’t think you will have to spend very much on the mechanics because most RV’s do not put many miles on in a year. As far as cost to own it I think a gas RV is the cheapest. A diesel RV that is new has big up front cost and large depreciation. A used diesel RV has some of the risk of buying a used bus and maybe more since many RV owners have no clue how to maintain a diesel engine. Commercial RVs with large engines (over 400hp) are also very expensive even used. They make a 102 with an 8v-92ta seem like a good deal. In the end you have to be a little nuts to buy a bus and convert it. It is a disease and you are showing the first symptoms. When anybody comes over and asks me why I like the bus I take them to the back and start up the old 8v-92ta. While they are in front of the engine I pull on the throttle and rev it up to 2300 rpm or so. At this point you either get a response that its cool or you are nuts. Good luck finding a bus | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Greg, good advice. I am considering the 102 series MCI, especially the C3 since I understand it's got more interior height and won't require a roof raise. This in itself, plus the extra width, may make it my best choice for my application. I'm sure I'll run across the right thing at the right time. I'm in no hurry, loads left to learn. As to your diagnosis in the last paragraph, you are correct. Thanks, Tom | ||
| Jon W. Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.252.165.154 Rating: N/A |
John raises some excellent points and one of the issues to consider is the accumulation of little problems. I was anal about chasing down little problems such as minor air leaks and anything that could affect the coach's enjoyment. Unfortunately most older coaches while basically sound are a collection of little unimportant problems that the previous owner never repaired. As a coach ages you get more and more of the annoying problems that would have been repaired if it was new. A person buying a coach to convert, or even one that has been converted has to determine just how many "minor" problems they can tolerate. Since I treat ours as a "recreation" vehicle I do not want to spend time on a trip with a wrench in my hand. I have seen owners of conversions tolerate stuff I would never want to deal with and they are pleased as punch. Every owner has to decide their own tolerance level. | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Registered Member Username: Airhog Post Number: 110 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 71.102.5.6 Rating: N/A |
I don't think this a very good question and it has had even worse answers, so I'll put my 2 cents in. Buses are like boats, airplanes, Harley's and wives, much less money to rent, and all of them we will get tired of( I still have all). Even if you could guess the cost of having a bus you need to factor in the " I want this" cost. I have a MC-7 that was just fine with a 8V71N and a 4 speed (75 MPH) with 2ea. 7 KW gen sets. Now I have a MC-7 with a 8V71T and a RTO (95 MPH) and am putting in a 15KW gen set. What will "I want this" bring next. If you want to know the cost then just rent one, pay the bill and go home. |
