| Author | Message | ||
| Buddy Tennison (Buddyten)
Registered Member Username: Buddyten Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.60.218.70 Rating: |
Hey Guys: Here are the facts and I need some thoughts and suggestions. Bus is '83 Eagle with 8V71 2 Stroker, with 5 spd Spicer Tranny. About 4 months ago, we "cracked" a piston (actually, a dime sized piece chipped off the top). We had our mechanic go into it, and he replaced the piston and sleeve, and the 4 valves in that cylinder. While dismantled, we had him check the engine out as best he could. He pulled and rebuilt the injectors, checked the balance of the cylinders/pistons, and did find some wear in the rod bearings, which he replaced. Found no "grooving" on the other cylinder walls, and felt that they were all ok. Checked all the other valves and seals and serviced and cleaned all the blower and intake. When we first crank it up, we get some minor gray smoke, but as soon as air builds enough, we switch to high idle to let air complete building. Smoke virtually goes away. Have had some friends following while we were driving, and they say little or no smoke going down freeway, except when it is placed into a lug, or between gear shifts. Clears up pretty quick. While we have always had "slobber", it seems to be a little more pronounced now. It is worse on the passenger side head. Very little slobber from the driver side. Have taken some trips of about 500-600 miles and have consumed about 1 1/2 gallons of oil on each trip. I think most of that has been slobbered out. Also have noticed that the backend of the bus is getting oil on it and looks nasty. Engine seems to be running good. No "missing" or running rough. Oil pressure constant in the 55-60 range (fluctuates a little in different gears) but seems to have no problem with oil pressure. Like I say, little or no smoke once it gets out and running down the freeway. The friend that followed us about 200 miles did have a very light oil feeling film on his windshield. Any suggestions or thoughts? | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.232.213.88 Rating: |
the slobber is fuel.the smoke at start-up is Completly normal,the black smoke between shift and the black smoke in a lug are completly normal,the 1 1/2 gallons in 500 miles is excessive,did he remove both heads? lots of times,pieces from one cylinder can travel to another cylinder,doesn't sound like it would,but somehow it does | ||
| Norm Edlebeck (Bandleader)
Registered Member Username: Bandleader Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 170.206.224.54 Rating: |
Hey Buddy, don't know the internal parts of engines that well, but can tell you how to get rid of that "slobber" of oil on the back of the bus once and for all. email me off site (click on my handle) & I'll get back to you. Norm Edlebeck | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.76 Rating: |
Why "private', Norm? Why not give us all a hang at it? | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1646 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 66.168.162.246 Rating: |
Buddy, like John, I would be very careful about accepting advice from anyone without it being posted to the board for review by other nuts. For instance, one of the recommendations posted previously was to run the slobber tubes back into the intake air. Although this was recommended by DD many years ago, it is no longer recommended. I am not casting any aspersions on Norm, but I am curious as to why he did not post the recommendation. Richard | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 218 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.65.122.187 Rating: |
But John, The secret squirrels are watching. We can't let the Russians figure out how we cured the oil on the back of the bus problem. (National Security) Most likely the oil is coming from the large 1" breather vent tube, because of Oil Control Ring problems. That will also give you excessive "slober" from the airbox drains. In short the oil rings and/or other parts are shot and the blower is pressurizing the crankcase. Dale | ||
| Buddy Tennison (Buddyten)
Registered Member Username: Buddyten Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.60.218.70 Rating: |
Guys, couple of questions. Please keep in mind that I am no expert here. For example, I thought the slobber was oil. Am asking these questions out of ignorance. If the Oil Rings, etc are bad, would I not experience some oil pressure problems? As in original post, our pressure remains constant (on the gauge) at around the 55-60 range. Is the slobber all fuel or is it a mixture of fuel and oil? I know that in looking at the slobber residue on the ground, there appears to be at least a little oil in it. To answer a previous question, yes the mechanic did remove both heads, because I did look into the engine myself (although I did not know much about what I was looking at). He did not find any excessive or abnormal wear on any of the cylinders, and did not feel that they required any work at this time. THE ENGINE HAS GOOD POWER. SEEMS TO PERFORM WELL. NO COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE ENGINE EXCEPT FOR THE OIL CONSUMPTION AND THE SLOBBER. If the slobber is fuel, does that mean that the rack is not set well on the side with excessive slobber? As indicated, there is little slobber coming from the other side. For example, when parked and on high idle at one place for this weekend, we ran it for about 1/2 to 3/4 hour. When we pulled away, I looked at the slobber and the passenger side had left a spot about the size of a paint bucket. The driver side had a spot about the size of a coffee mug. Why the difference? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.165 Rating: |
Buddy - This topic had been discussed before and is likely to be found in the archives.. If I remember correctly, one fella' had the wrong length dipstick in the engine. His rig's sump was being continually overfilled by a gallon. Once the oil slobbered out, and the stick read a gallon low, there was no more oil slop under the bus! I'm gonna' stick my dipstick out here: You won't hurt the engine by running it a gallon+ low, just to test things out. If you were in the middle of a long charter run, the oil wouldn't be checked until the bus returned from the trip and back at the barn.... I'd let the thing "slobber" down to wherever it's slobbering to... and take it for another spin... If the puddle's gone, you may have cured your headache. Some outfits change engines, and reuse the same dipstick, some use the stick that came with the engine, even though they had to change the dipstick tube to fit the new application. Chuck Lott posted the "proper length" and how to measure it, in an earlier thread... Maybe we can get him to post it again... | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.165 Rating: |
oh.....also... The only right oil to use, is 40w Delo 100. Anything else can result in loss of oil, leaks, smoke, etc.... | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 466 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 207.30.189.50 Rating: |
Or Shell Rotella T 40W. Jack | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member Username: Blue_velvet Post Number: 362 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.19.152.144 Rating: |
Buddy, excessive idling can lead to slobbering, also. No doubt you have other issues going on here, but avoid idling the engine (normal or high-idle) for more than five minutes or so. 2-strokes (and diesels in general) like to be loaded up and run at temperature. Drive it LONG distances on the highway, then shut it down soon thereafter. Idling leads to "wet stacking", blowby, and slobber. And unnecessary engine wear. I'm wondering if you cracked the piston due to lugging. NEVER let your speed drop below your normal shift-point for that gear (usually 15mph in first, ~30mpph in second, etc.). Don't give full fuel on hard climbs, either. Watch your tailpipe for black smoke (unburnt fuel and HEAT). Also, follow John's advice on oil. However, any CF2 rated 40wt oil is acceptable IF it contains less than 1% ash content (Delo 400 doesn't, Delo 100 does). Last count there were maybe 7-8 acceptable oils. None are available over the counter anywhere I've ever shopped. I use Rotella T 40w, a special order from NAPA. DO NOT EVER USE MULTIWEIGHT OIL IN A DD 2-STROKE. Yes, I was shouting... If you baby your engine, you might get by for another 100k-200k miles, who knows. These things were designed to go go go and keep going, as long as routine maint. is made and care is taken. Keep us posted, Brian Brown 4108-216 Longmont, CO (Message edited by blue_velvet on August 01, 2006) | ||
| Jay Gerlick
Unregistered guest Posted From: 152.163.100.138 Rating: |
I to thought my oil problem was just a tired out motor. Of course as soon as I got the bus I changed the oil. I used what my Dad uses on the school buses and larger diesel trucks that he maintains. Penzoil 15W-45. Someone once said if you use anything but straight weight 40, a detroit diesel will try to spit it out of every orifice. I can attest to this. I had a nasty leaky air box drains. Also I had an oil leak at my turbo. Now some very knowledgable guy told me that if the bus sat alot and idled quite a bit that this could be unburned fuel mixed with soot from the exhaust. I changed the oil this last time as the bus was going on a couple of trips, with citgo 40WT and have been driving it quite a bit with no leaks I mean none, it's amazing! Still don't have 50 -60 psi oil pressure, are you sure you got a detroit? To bad you didn't get the rings replaced, the heads were off and he replaced rod bearings. Wouldn't have been that much more would it? | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 219 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.146.236.11 Rating: |
Bad oil rings allow "Blow BY", but will not affect oil pressure. The airbox drains are were you will get unburnt fuel and some oil draining from the airbox. Some oil will cause it to turn black and is normal, but the amount of oil you are using is a problem . How did the guy check the liners or pistons for wear?? Did he pull the airbox covers and look inside at the pistons and rings??? What oil are you using??? You said he rebuilt the injectors(1st post) That is a job left to the pro's with the test stands and proper equipment. Dale | ||
| Norm Edlebeck (Bandleader)
Registered Member Username: Bandleader Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 170.206.224.54 Rating: |
Hi Guys, Sorry I did't post this info to all to Buddys statement of oil slobber on the back of his bus. I didn't for one reason and only one reason - that being that I didn't feel this was the part of the board for any type advertising. I am a dealer for AIRTABs. I originally put them up both sides & across the top of the bus. That did not cure the problem of my old Detroit Diesel (8v71) oil from rolling out and up on the doors from UNDER the rear bumper. I know they work on the sides & top, so I installed a 6" piece of sheet metal UNDERNEATH the bumper and put on 18 Airtabs. Lo & behold, 99%+ of oil is now not on either the back doors or bumper. Yesterday I went about 130 miles pulling a 8'x 14' enclosed trailer I just had built to hall my Freeway 3 wheel (100 mpg) car in. Needless to say I have Airtabs on the trailer also. Got home, got out to see how much oil was on trailer (which has about a 6' to 7' gap between it and the bus), only a slight bit of oil on front trailer corners - went down both sides of trailer - no oil on sides - checked back doors nothing. Finally looked at the Airtabs going up the sides of the trailer and found oil streaks, on each side inside/on each Airtab up from the bottom no more than about 3 ft.(or 9 airtabs). End result means I only need to wash those bottom Airtabs - that's it. If anyone is close to New Ulm MN, stop in and take a look. I am not going to wash them til I get to Charlotte next week. Sorry guys,(& I@n too). This is not meant to be advertising in any way - just wanted to let you guys know what works. And yes Dale, we don't want to breach National Security here. Thanks guys - that's "...the rest of the story." Norm | ||
| Buddy Tennison (Buddyten)
Registered Member Username: Buddyten Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.60.218.70 Rating: |
Guys, Thanks for all the info. Yes, I suppose I should have gone ahead and had the mechanic replace the rings while it was down. He just felt like from what he saw that it really didn't need it. Also, had the maintenance records from the previous owners, and as best we could tell, the rings were replaced about 100K ago. I use Rotella 15W40. This is what the previous owner used. I have read all the previous posts, and know that almost all of you shy away from using multi-grade oil. I asked the mechanic about going to a straight grade, and he is fearful that by doing that might really cause it to start using oil. What do you all think?? By the way, the mechanic did outsource the rebuilding of the injectors to another diesel shop that is set up to do that kind of stuff. Also had them look at the heads. I have seen you all talk about a "catch system" for slobber. I think at one point, someone had come up with a homemade tank, but I have not been able to find how it is made, where it is mounted, how the slobber tube is routed to it, etc. Can anyone direct me to it? Thanks again for all your help. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.108.42 Rating: |
Hmmmm "I use Rotella 15W40. This is what the previous owner used. I have read all the previous posts, and know that almost all of you shy away from using multi-grade oil. I asked the mechanic about going to a straight grade, and he is fearful that by doing that might really cause it to start using oil. What do you all think?? " I think you oughta' get rid of that multi-grade oil, AND that mechanic! Don't knock yourself out trying to solve any oil related problem, until you change that oil to the only correct oil for that engine. A 2d is a whole 'nother animal.. Feeding it Multi-grade is like prune juice to someone suffering diarrhea. | ||
| J.C.B. (Eagle)
Registered Member Username: Eagle Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.130.36.222 Rating: N/A |
Buddy you can make an oil catcher with PVC pipe and four 90's and a little steel wool. | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member Username: Blue_velvet Post Number: 363 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.19.152.144 Rating: N/A |
Buddy, I'm with John. Dump the oil and the mechanic ASAP. Your engine is suffering irrepairable damage with the multigrade oil. If your mechnic doesn't know this, I wouldn't let him turn another wrench on my bus, because he doesn't know the single most critial thing about DD 2-strokes. Here's some "light" reading for you about the damage of multigrade oils in a 2-stroke: http://www.tejascoach.com/ddcoil.html Your liners and rings are probably scored, and the excess ash in the oil is breaking down the compression rings. 40wt. is like syrup compared to multigrade and protects the engine during high rpm, high heat use. Oil usage can only go down with a thicker oil, eh?! Good luck, bb | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.7.216 Rating: N/A |
or just get a hose with the i.d. the same as the o.d. of the tube & extend it down to one inch above the pavement | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1647 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 66.168.162.246 Rating: N/A |
Buddy, when I changed from multi-grade to straight 40 weight, all my slobber and oil consumption problems disappeared. Change that oil the first thing you do. Richard | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 973 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.70.16 Rating: N/A |
Buddy, one other thing that would influence what you're seeing; it's doubtful that the rings in the repaired cylinder have been broken in, yet. You can expect that cylinder to take anything up to 25,000 miles to be completely broken in, and oil consumption to be noticeably above normal for several thousand miles. Is the larger puddle under the side of the engine that got the new liner and piston? For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska |
