| Author | Message | ||
| Matthew Shaw (Greentowtruck)
Registered Member Username: Greentowtruck Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 24.113.12.84 Rating: N/A |
I just recently came into possesion of a 1964 crown bus with a 220hp cummins and an allison auto it has a single rear axle. it is 35 feet long and had been converted then stripped sometime long before I got it what I cant seem to find any information on is it has skylight windows down both sides. Was this a option or something aftermarket? or just extremely rare for the crowns? I have also spotted another one pretty close to me with the same windows. another question is what can i do to repower this bus with something a little bigger (300-400 hp) it has the laydown mid engine arrangement | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.125.9.251 Rating: N/A |
sounds like a sight-seeing bus at one time? The only Crown Ive seen over here onthe east coast was a schoolie from Oregon.Crown is not a bad looking bus. How does it prform now with current engine and trans and what kinda shape is the engine? Repower cant be cheep. Good luck with your new coach. | ||
| Kevin Black (Kblackav8or)
Registered Member Username: Kblackav8or Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.152.174.51 Rating: N/A |
Yahoo has a pretty good group on Crown busses. It requires a oil pan and a few other components but you can put an 855 cummins in there or some of the various Detroits. They are well built busses, probably more sturdy then many of the highway coaches out there. | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member Username: Cowlitzcoach Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 204.245.250.4 Rating: |
You have a Skyview Crown, a fairly rare version of the Crown Supercoach. It was used by tour companies predominately. The only way to get more power out of your 220 would be to put a turbo on it. That would increase your power to about 265 HP. If you do, make sure you also put on a pyrometer. You can really cook a Cummins on a hill if you are not careful. Unless you can find another pancake engine out of a fire truck, a Crown or Gillig bus, or a garbage truck you are SOL as far as repower choices are concerned. The pancake mounting hardware is just not available any longer. It requires more than just a different oil pan. Crown and Gillig did make a few of their buses with the big cam Cummins engines, some as high as 400 HP from the factory. They were extremely rare when new and getting harder to find every day. The easiest donor to find would be a Crown Ikarus bus. The Crown Ikarus buses that were in the Portland, OR fleet came from the factory with big cam Cummins engines with Allison automatics. The only real problem with repowering a pre-1972 Crown to a big cam Cummins is ground clearance (the visual difference is early fenders were round on top and later fenders were flat on top). The big cam engine is a couple of inches wider than the small cam. All of the extra inches means the bottom of the engine is that much closer to the ground. The most common engine in a Crown was the various incarnations of the DD 6-71. After about 1980 all were turbocharged. None of the DD's will pull as hard as a Cummins. Because of the vintage of your Crown, it may already have had a repower. Until the late '60's Hall-Scott gas engines were still available. While they had lots of go they also used 2-3 times as much fuel. Because of the high fuel use many of the H-S powered Crowns went back to the factory where they were repowered with Cummins NHH220 engines. The only way to tell for sure is by the model number of your bus. The best thing about a Crown is all of the running gear was off the shelf Class '7' or '8' truck parts. Outside of some odd bits and pieces due to the pancake engine, almost everything can be purchased over the counter from your local NAPA or Carquest store. For the few Crown only bits and pieces, Westcoach will have what you need. Good luck and know you have a really special bus. Mark O. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 228 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.26 Rating: N/A |
The Cummins 220 (855ci) is one of the best engines ever made. I would be really happy to have one in my 4104 even though the 6-71 is also a great engine. The 220 is very torquey and has very good low rpm lugging torque, something the DDs never had. It is a real hill puller. | ||
| Matthew Shaw (Greentowtruck)
Registered Member Username: Greentowtruck Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 24.113.12.84 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the info everybody. The main reason i was considering the repower is that when i brought it home i was pulling a local hill ans was only able to get about 20 mph up it although i had to do it from nearly a dead stop and even though it is short it is pretty steep but it seems to want to ge pretty fast on the straight and level I havent got under it yet to see if there is a tag for the gear ratio in the rear end but a friend of mine drove it when his father inlaw originally bought it a couple years ago and said he was doing 70 mph down I-5. the model number is A 743-11 and it states 220hp on the tag (Message edited by greentowtruck on November 12, 2006) | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1104 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
"The main reason i was considering the repower is that when i brought it home i was pulling a local hill ans was only able to get about 20 mph up it although i had to do it from nearly a dead stop and even though it is short it is pretty steep but it seems to want to ge pretty fast on the straight and level I havent got under it yet to see if there is a tag for the gear ratio in the rear end but a friend of mine drove it when his father inlaw originally bought it a couple years ago and said he was doing 70 mph down I-5. the model number is A 743-11 and it states 220hp on the tag" Whew! That was quite a run-on sentence! BTW, if you downshift the Allison automatic manually, the coach will perform better. Crowns are built like a tank - great bus, sad story about their demise. . .  You've got a unique one, very cool. Enjoy the madness - it is addicting!  | ||
| Matthew Shaw (Greentowtruck)
Registered Member Username: Greentowtruck Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 24.113.12.84 Rating: N/A |
Sorry about the long sentance, but i was never really good at puncuation. I slept through most of those type classes so i would be awake for shop classes. I did downshift it manually but like i said it was a steep hill from almost a dead stop. I started from the stop sign then had about 300 feet before starting a 6% grade. went up in 1-2 at about 20mph | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.62.105.169 Rating: N/A |
Hey Matt, I repowered my crown with a 1986 855 ci big cam 290. the old 220 was not an 855 ci but a 743 ci Email me and I will talk to you for hours and send you some pics. | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.62.105.169 Rating: N/A |
Oh,BTW, Mark is an outstanding source of info about Crowns | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 230 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.13 Rating: N/A |
Douglas, My 220 is a 230!! It is 855 ci. You are absolutely correct, I always did get those two confused. (Message edited by gusc on November 12, 2006) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.235.149 Rating: N/A |
Matt..I too have a '64 Crown (Supercoach) 10 wheels, powered by a Cummins 220 NHH series with turbo...pancake. Wouldn't trade do a chengeout for any amout of $$$$. It will do what the speedometer registers at the top (85) on a western flat highway, will climb most western hills in 6-7th gear from a dead stop at the bottom....most in 8-9th gear......rarely goes below 50 but in 6th about 35. I usually drive twixt 55 and 65. Speed seems to make not much difference in mpg. Have gotten over 12 mpg and will average on any trip here in the New Mexico, Arizona mountains over 10....last trip a couple of weeks ago brought 10.83 I have a Fuller Roadranger 10 speed. JR and Mark are dead on...just remember you're driving a few tons of around and it is not a sportscar.... FWIW RCB | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member Username: Cowlitzcoach Post Number: 125 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 206.163.13.50 Rating: N/A |
A-743-11 translated means it is a 35' coach with two axles, it came from the factory with the Cummins NHH220, and it came from the factory with 11:00X20 tires. If it had been 2A-426-12 it would have been a three axle 40' coach with a DD 6-71 with 12:00X20 tires. As far as I know, the small cam Cummins engine was 743 cubic inches. The most common HP rating was 220 HP naturally aspirated and 262 HP with a turbo. The 855 cubic inch big cam Cummins engine ratings started out at 250 HP naturally aspirated and 290 HP with a turbo and went up from there. Since Matthew didn't specify which Allison transmission he has, by the vintage of the bus I would guess he most likely has the HT70. The HT70 is a six-speed automatic and looks like a really big version of the Chevy Powerglide with three sun and planetary gear sets instead of just one. It does not have convertor lockup in any gear. If it is an HT70 it will outlast the bus if it has had normal care and feeding. One thing about the HT70--it will keep shifting up unless you lock it into a lower gear. If you are in no hurry and don't mind seeing lots of black smoke coming out of the stack just put it into six and go. If you do mind the black smoke, hand shift the transmission. IIRC, the shift quadrant was marked R, N, 1, 2-3, 2-4, 3-5, 6. In any case, it sounds as if you have a great bus. Mark O. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.144.220 Rating: N/A |
RJ....sorry about the JR... Mark, thanx for the additional info. Crowns are pretty hard to beat after 5 years of experience with ours. Maybe we were just "fortunate" RCB | ||
| Matthew Shaw (Greentowtruck)
Registered Member Username: Greentowtruck Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 24.113.12.84 Rating: N/A |
my shifter is marked r, n, 3-6, 3-5, 3-4, 1-2 bottom to top. It does have the retarder pedal but it doesnt seem to be hooked up so I am going to have to see about getting that working also. I have to de some rust repair to the belt line below the side windows so I am going to see if i can find some pieces from junked busses to patch in or just cut the rust out and seal the bare metal. Then cover it over with an aluminum cover plate | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member Username: Cowlitzcoach Post Number: 126 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 204.245.228.92 Rating: N/A |
From the way the shifter is marked I would say you have a HT70. If you start the bus in 3-6 it will start out in second gear and shift into sixth by the time you are going 35 MPH. Most of the time you don't need first gear but if you are starting on any kind of a hill it will take a looooong time to get going if you are starting in second. If it does have the retarder pedal it most likely does have a retarder. IIRC the retarder on the HT70 has a mechanical linkage, much like a clutch linkage. In order to make the retarder work you just press down on the pedal. The more you press on the pedal the more retarder action you get. If you do have a retarder and use it make sure your transmission temperature gauge is working. Using a retarder can really toast a transmission. Also, do not try to manually shift gears while you have the retarder pedal depressed. It really confuses the transmission and the transmission objects really loudly. I am trying to visualize what sort of rust problem you may have in the belt line. Every Crown I have ever seen has had either stainless or aluminum below the windows. In fact, the only rust I have ever seen on a Crown has been the rear window frame and the front windshield frame. If you need used parts and pieces, Pat Young in Fresno, CA has just about anything you could ever want off of a Crown. Currently he has at least 10 Crowns that he is parting out due to the wacko environmental laws in CA. As far as any other donor buses being available, I can't think of anyone closer to you than Pat who might have any donor buses, parts, or pieces. Or at least any that would have them at a price that is reasonable. Two areas you need to inspect carefully on a Crown are the frame outriggers and the side window body posts where they meet the floor. The Crown is built so rock solid it is almost too rock solid. There is so little flex built into the coach any flexing can actually break parts of the frame. It was particularly bad on buses that had to run routes that were off pavement (it wasn't unknown for Crowns to shear off all of the side window body posts at the floor line) and on 10-wheelers that ran exclusively urban/suburban routes (turning lots of corners broke a lot of frames behind the rear axles on 10-wheelers). As you replace any body panels notice how Crown installed them in the factory. You need to make sure you don't put any aluminum body panels directly onto any of the steel framework. If you do, you will have a lot of electrolysis going on almost immediately. At that point all of your work and materials will have been wasted. It sounds as if whoever spe'c'ed your bus originally wanted a top of the line bus. Outside of the turbo your bus has almost every other option Crown normally had available at that time. One thing about Crowns is every one of them was a custom built bus. There was no "stock" bus. If you could convince Crown to do it they would build your bus whichever way you wanted it. The 1969 Crown I owned, according to the build sheet, didn't leave the factory with new tires and wheels. The owner of the bus provided their own tires and wheels, as a consequence the bus left the factory with eight recaps across the back--go figure! The Embree buses were like no other Crowns. A lot of the options that the Embree's ordered later became standard issue in later models. For instance, the first Crowns to have the side radiators were Embree buses. As it is getting a little cool and the humidity has gone way up in the wet NW your NHH220 is not going to want to start without some help. At the back of the engine on the driver's side you will find the compression release lever. You are going to have to use it or plug in an engine block heater overnight if you expect to start your engine. The 220 was never known for starting easily in the cold. Whatever you do, don't use ether. The 220 has enough problems of head movement already. You don't want to exacerbate the problem by using ether. It sounds as if you have found a real keeper. Good luck and happy trails. Mark O. | ||
| Matthew Shaw (Greentowtruck)
Registered Member Username: Greentowtruck Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 24.113.12.84 Rating: N/A |
Well if this works here is a picture of the rust in one spot. I believe this is the worst area. between this belt line and the windows, the white area, is steel on this bus but below it is aluminum  the rust was caused by someone filling in the area under the windows with spray foam and sealing off the drains. I am taking all the sprayfoam out so I can redo it properly and put in the drip pans to direct the water down the drain area. I dont know about other busses but this one had schoolbus windows and they drain out right at the bottom of that belt line. I know about the electrolosis thing I build aluminum boats for a living. (Message edited by greentowtruck on November 14, 2006) (Message edited by greentowtruck on November 14, 2006) | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 195 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 4.252.72.139 Rating: N/A |
855 c.i Cummins were built as big and small cam engines. The small cam can be taken to 400 H.P. but it is more dependable at 350 and down. I don't really know much about Crown buses only that they are to me the most appealing school bus out there. If the 220 that is in the bus is the external fuel line 220 it would not make a good engine to modify due to head design as Mark mentioned. Does anyone have info. on the 743 that will determine if the 743 block and the 855 is the same. I am thinking the 743 had six bolt heads as the 180 H.P industrials did but not shure. Anyway Matthew good luck on the bus when I first got into this I seriously considered a Crown befor I got hooked on GM Silversides. Hope to see you get it fixed up and traveling. Best of luck. Tim | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 196 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 4.252.72.139 Rating: N/A |
Mark I wanted to ask you about a statment in one of your posts. You had stated that the Allison HT70 had no converter lock up. I was wondering where you got that info. as the books on my HT70 states the transmission locks the converter via a larg diameter clutch disc inside the converter. This lock up takes place when the input and output rpm of the converter is within a certain percentage of each other. It then releases momentarily during a shift to cushion the shift surge but locks back up. The book did state that only in low gear the converter did not lock. Also you stated that when in 3-6 gears that it would start out in second gear but my book states that it will start out in third gear is my book incorrect? Thanks for any info. you have. Tim | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member Username: Cowlitzcoach Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 206.163.13.35 Rating: N/A |
As far as I know, and I don't know a lot about them, there is very little in common between a big cam and a little cam Cummins engine. You may be able to swap injectors and pumps but little else would swap across. The real problem with the small cam engine design was in the head. It had six large bolts holding it in place. IIRC it requires 650+ lb/ft torque to tighten them down. Not only is that difficult to do but it is hard for the fasteners to keep that tight with so few holding things in place. It is particularly bad if the oversize 'O' rings aren't used. As the engine is used and the engine heats and cools the heads actually walk around on the block wearing out the head gasket. The problem isn't quite as bad in a marine or stationary power application when steady speeds and temps are in play. But in automotive use with vast swings in temps it is hard to keep the heads on tight on a small cam Cummins. As far as the the lock up convertor on an HT70 is concerned, the lock up is similar to the lock up in the AT500 series of transmissions and not at all like the lock up in the MT600 and HT700 series of transmissions. In the later is feels as if you have another gear shifting when it goes into lock up. In the former you really never feel it lock up. It has been so long since I drove an HT70 I don't remember how it shifted. What I do remember is if you left the shifter in 3-6 it would take forever and a day to get up to speed. I also remember it would not lock into first gear. Trying to climb steep grades on gravel was a real thrill. You would have to get enough speed up to shift it out of first and hope it didn't get so steep it would want to shift down into first. On really steep grades with a full load, regardless of the surface, it would search between first and second gear. At those times it made you rethink if you really did prefer the automatic over the maunally shifted transmissions. In regards to the rust repair, I have never seen a Crown rust through in that area before. I think you are correct when you say it was due to ignorance more than anything else. Be careful when you work on those panels below the windows. Those panels give the body structural strength. If you have them off, be very careful when moving the bus because it could cause the body to rack. Mark O. |
