| Author | Message | ||
| Arnie Molloy (Ayjay)
Registered Member Username: Ayjay Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.160.171.199 Rating: N/A |
Hi: Has anyone actually converted a propane M/H furnace to operate on natural Gas? If so what is involved other than a re-jetting and a possible adjustment or replacement of the regulator? This conversion will only be temporary to allow me to work in the Bus over the winter and not have to make weekly trips to the propane dealer. TIA for any info AyJay | ||
| Busfool (Chuck)
Registered Member Username: Chuck Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 206.172.106.5 Rating: N/A |
You need to change the gas valve and the oriface in the burner natural gas is lighter than propane and the oriface has to be smaller.Any conversions of gas types should be approved by a licensed gas installer or it could effect your insurance on your home. I have converted everything I had on propane to natural gas including the barbecue like you said no more running for gas . Chuck | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 572 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
your propane dealer can make the change ............... OR Get a big bottle of propane delivered & set outside,you can rent big tanks from the propane dealer | ||
| James Smith (Tomcat)
Registered Member Username: Tomcat Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, I'm with Bob on this one. 100# bottles will keep you going for a pretty good while, and having two or three at the ready seems less headache than fuel conversion one way, then back again later. Jay 87 SaftLiner | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
I was thinking one of those 100 gallon round ones...rent should be about 20.00 a month,or,if it's used maybe buy it for 100.00 | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.154 Rating: N/A |
AJ, Natural gas is supplied at eight inches of water column, (28 inches equals one pound,) propane is supplied a 11 inches WC. A natural gas orifice is LARGER than a propane, and all natural gas appliances run on less manifold pressure than propane. What you are asking CAN be done, but the cost is probably as much as getting a large propane tank, which is a lot easier. | ||
| Arnie Molloy (Ayjay)
Registered Member Username: Ayjay Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.160.171.199 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the replies, It was an idea I had to explore, so I wouldn't be hauling the PITA tanks back and forth to the propane filling station. I have one 100#, one 40#, and several 20# tanks and use an automatic switchover. My system works...BUT... always looking for an easier way to do the same thing.... Again.. Thanks All AyJay | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
Do not change your furnace over to natural gas. I doubt they make kits for doing that for an RV heater, but the gas valve is not what you have to change, you have to change the burner orifice/s, the pilot orifice and the spring in the regulator portion of the gas valve, then adjust the pressure "out" on any appliance that is legal to convert. Natural gas orifices are LARGER than propane ones, because Natural gas is regulated to a lower pressure. Lower pressure=larger hole, higher pressure=smaller hole They quit producing home water heaters that were able to be converted because people were constantly only doing part of the job, not the whole conversion. You can still buy conversion kits for stoves and residential furnaces, but again, I don't think they even make a conversion kit for RV furnaces. If I am wrong, I apologize, but I haven't seen one yet. Christy Hicks | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 694 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Propane furnace & NG furnace Difference = Jets PSI = regulated between tank discharge/ appliance input by regulator No difference between "RV" and "Home" appliances Simple modification = unscrew propane jet/screw in NG jet What's the problem? (Message edited by niles500 on January 25, 2007) | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: |
Well, I don't wish to get into an argument here, so I'll just post once more to make sure I was clear in my original statement: The difference between propane and natural gas appliances are that the pilot orifice (if it has a pilot), and the burner orifice (jet) are smaller for propane, and the pressure has to be adjusted, either by a screw or a spring/screw combination, normally located on the gas valve or a separate regulator on the appliance. You have to use a manometer to set the proper pressure AT EACH APPLIANCE gas valve. I don't know anybody that sells natural gas conversion kits for RV furnaces. On household appliances, you can buy conversion kits to change the spring and orifices (jets), and then you adjust the pressure properly. These are sold for furnaces and stoves/cooktops. Improperly converted appliances can over fire or underfire, resulting in cracked heat exchangers, flame roll out, sooted up flues, etc. Many people in the past, when converting water heaters, just changed the orifices, without changing the pressure at the water heater gas valve, thereby causing a severe overfire situation when converting from LP to natural gas. Finally, the water heater manufacturers stopped producing convertible water heaters and the conversion kits, because too many people were converting them partially, without taking all of the steps to do it properly. IMHO, it's much easier just to use 100lb bottles and not spend the time and trouble to try to convert the motorhome furnace to natural gas. Of course, this is my opinion and everyone gets to make their own decisions based on their confidence in their knowledge and abilities. Respectfully, Christy Hicks | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
I don't want an argument either, but more importantly, I DON'T WANT A FIRE! Christy's second and fourth paragraphs say it all! MOST propane appliance regulators provide 10 inches of water column at the orifices. MOST natural gas appliance regulators provide 4 inches. ENLARGING AN ORIFICE AND LEAVING THE REGULATOR PRESSURE AT 2 1/2 TIMES WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE WILL MELT THE APPLIANCE AND/OR START A FIRE! The problem is what Niles has suggested is paragraph four! I am a licensed HVAC contractor, and as such, I am qualified to speak. I live in the country, and convert natural gas furnaces, stoves, and clothes driers to run on propane on a regular basis. Please don't even THINK about doing what he suggested!!!!! George Todd Lic. #624299 (Ca.) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Sorry if I appeared argumentative ... but Arnie appeared to have reasonable knowledge of what was invoved in the conversion - He did not however provide a Make or model for specific reference >>>>>> Hi: Has anyone actually converted a propane M/H furnace to operate on natural Gas? If so what is involved other than a re-jetting and a possible adjustment or replacement of the regulator <<<<< He would most likely find out the Manufacturers advisability of whether his specific unit could be converted when he called for parts - But his question was whether it was doable - and it is - there are RV units that are dual Propane/NG capable on the market (see below) - FWIW http://www.ducktec.com/atwood-8900.html | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: |
Well, if you look at little closer at these units, you'll see that this is a new product, and the units that are listed as dual fuel, are the 120v a/c units, which are not likely to be used in a mobile application. I would think this was designed for the park model/manufactured home/portable office application, since most RV's are not going to utilize a propane fired furnace that requires 120v for power. Also, if you do a little more research, you'll find out that those are not actually convertible in the field, rather, they are set up at the factory only. You buy them for either Natural Gas or LP, and then I guess if you want to switch, you must have to send it back to them. Hmmm, I wonder why they do that???? Just teasing. . . their description is misleading when they label it as dual fuel capable, because one would think that meant that you could switch back and forth. I would have thought the same thing, but I was just curious enough to do a little digging. I don't think you were argumentive at all, Niles, I just was afraid you'd think I was picking at you, which I'm not. It's a problem with us hvac contractors, we get so uptight about the idea that someone may misunderstand advice or directions, and burn something up because they made a mistake messing around with stuff like this. You see, we all have gone out and seen some really scary things that people have done so we have a tendency to react strongly when we see what we think could be incomplete information out there. People assume that we're just trying to keep all the work for ourselves, but that's not the case, we just want them to be safe. Anyway, the debate was fun! Christy Hicks | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.125.9.251 Rating: N/A |
Big problem around here is now alot of contractors are now "plumbers and electricians" to save their customer $$$$. Usually means more work for me eventually but i've seen some scary stuff. I commend Arnie for asking first and everyone who jumped in to help. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 696 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
It has been said more than once that when a person posts a question on the board there are many responses, but few to the actual question posed. Arnie originaly asked; >>>>>>>>>>>Has anyone actually converted a propane M/H furnace to operate on natural Gas? If so what is involved other than a re-jetting and a possible adjustment or replacement of the regulator? Busfool answered his question directly right away (nice job) There were a few posts not responsive to the question George responded that it CAN be done Christy offered some cautious words of advice I then seconded what Busfool and everyone else had already answered In addition I would like to clarify that piped NG PSI is regulated by the supplier usually at the meter and there are safeguards in effect in every state that I am aware of, including the requirement of the utility to inspect the system at the time of hookup. One of the reasons, and there are many, few RV's have NG conversions is due to the fact that NG is mostly available by pipeline and RV's are not usually stationary. In Fla many RV parks that are proximate to NG lines have had their Propane converted to NG as they are parked permanently at the site. Nonetheless I have asked two ME's if my post was accurate and they agreed that unless a unit has been specifically designed otherwise that Propane could be converted to NG and vice versa. Then the "FIRE" word came out and I clarified my post - thought that was the end. You can imagine my amusement at the wonderful Email I recieved afterword. Here are some excerpts; >>>>>>>>I don't want to get into a stinking contest on the board, but I can't let a post which would cause a fire go A) The board would be better served if you posted the answer as to why this would cause a fire. >>>>>>>>Your post on "chance the orifice, whats the problem?" was ill-advised, and would have caused a melted heat exchanger at best, if not a fire A) Why would a proper replaced jet operating at the proper PSI melt the heat exchanger or cause a fire? >>>>>>>>Your second post ...(edited)... didn't contain an apology for making a non-qualified post, which it should have! Okay here's my apology .... Sorry .... that I was correct. >>>>>>>>If the original poster had known exactly what to do, he would not have asked for help from the board... consequently he doesn't know which suggestions could be deadly. My apologies to Arnie. I may have assumed, since he had correctly identified the process to do the conversion, including the proper terminology (no thingamajig or doodad description), and asking cautiously for verification by board members that his observations were not flawed, he was intelligent enough to go about properly deciding if he was up to or even wanted to make the conversion. Or maybe I assumed correctly (personally Arnie I think you are) that he was so capable. >>>>>>>>Please, do the board a favor, and resist the temptation to post on dangerous subjects you are not qualified on, just to see your name in print. Jeez how could I resist the chance at having my name up in ***LIGHTS*** - seen by dozens of busnuts, and miss the opportunity of an email flaming. My life is now complete. In the future, remember I post on the board and would appreciate your answer on the board. If I am wrong, misunderstood, or in error (and I have been in the past), I will make my apologies ON THE BOARD. Don't have to worry - I never took my asbestos overalls off since the last time. P.S. I can't wait till the subject of propane injection comes up again! (Message edited by niles500 on January 30, 2007) | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: |
Niles, I'm sorry if it seems like people were JUMPING you for your post, I just don't think it's necessary for people to be rude or hateful over this stuff. It's just not necessary. I think maybe the reason people wrote to you privately was maybe they didn't want to start a fight, I'm not sure, maybe they didn't want to criticise you publicly, so I would assume that they had good intentions. Let me perhaps add a little detail that wasn't presented perviously. Actually, normally a natural gas meter from the utility will deliver higher pressure than the appliance requires, which is why the appliances have gas valves with regulators built into them, or have separate regulators. Actually, people would be surprised to learn that most utility companies are not regulated by codes, they do not have to perform their work according to any accepted "codes", and often, we've seen materials used by utility technicians that are absolutely NOT acceptable under any code. City and state inspectors do NOT have authority over the utility companies. Their employees are not required to be licensed, even though private contrators in that trade are. So, your electric company will have very few licensed electricians, the gas company will have very few licensed gas fitters. . . yada yada yada. They train their guys themselves, so I'm not saying they don't have training, but my experience has been that many of those guys don't have a clue that they're doing things wrong. As soon as a caller starts their sentance with: "The gas company guy told me. .. . " I know that the real probably is likely going to be totally different than what that guy said! The funniest was when one of our elderly customers called because her neighbor, a gas company employee, came over and changed her furnace filters for her, but couldn't get her furnace to come back on. We went over and put the doors back on the furnace, so that it would light! ha ha Anyway, sorry to get off the subject with my rant, let me re-direct. The gas coming from the meter is likely to be at a higher pressure than a natural gas appliance wants. We've seen twice the pressure from the meter than our appliances require. The appliance regulates the input pressure down to the proper output pressure required for proper burning. Too low or too high of pressure can result in anything from sooting of flues, to flame rollout, to overfire situations, which can weaken the metal in the heat exchanger and change the safety clearance needs of the appliance. My suggestion is that rather than relying on someone's advice, any person who wishes to "convert" an appliance by simply changing the orifice is best advised to contact the manufacturer of that specific appliance and ask them directly whether the appliance can be converted and what process to use. Again, the reason we are gradually seeing more and more appliances sold as "gas specific" i.e., non-convertible, is because there is indeed danger involved in the improper conversion from one specific gas to another. After all, who do you think is the first one they try to sue when an appliance flames out and starts a fire. . . it's the manufacturer, who has much deeper pockets than "Appliance Joe", your local neighborhood repair guy. Respectfully, Christy Hicks | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 77 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Steckbauer, Per your request in your post of Jan. 30, 943pm, I will reply on board. I definitely am one of the people who sent you a private email, and I do wish you had paid attention to it, AND PUBLISHED ALL OF IT. First let me state my qualifications. I am a licensed HVAC contractor in California, the license #is 624299 in classes C10, which is electrical (general) and C20 which is HVAC (Heating, Ventilating, Air Conditioning) issued Aug. 6, 1991. The State License Board also requires 4 years verifiable experience before granting elegibility to take the test! The toll free number to verify this with the State is 1 800 321-2752. On 1/21 Arnie asked if anyone has actually converted a propane M/H furnace to operate on natural Gas. He then asked what is required other than re-jetting and possible adjustment of the regulator. Busfool replied "You need to change the gas valve and the oriface(sic) in the burner natural gas is lighter than propane and the oriface(sic) has to be smaller. Any conversions of gas types should be approved by a licensed gas installer..." The only problem here, is that a natural gas orifice IS ALWAYS LARGER THAN A PROPANE ORIFICE OF THE SAME BTU RATING!!! Please remember this as problem One. On Jan. 22, I wrote back, explaining gas pressures, manifold pressure, and orifice sizing, in an effort to correct the mis-statement posted above. On Jan. 24, Christy wrote eloquently what I said before, that the "requirements are a pilot orifice change, a burner orifice change, and a REGULATOR PORTION OF THE GAS VALVE CHANGE, THEN ADJUST THE PRESSURE!" Obviously you ignored the other contractor telling you that you were wrong also, because: On Jan. 25, 4:10 pm, you wrote: "Propane furnace & NG furnace Difference=Jets PSI=regulated between tank discharge/appliance input by regulator No difference between "RV" and "Home" appliances Simple modification=unscrew propane jet/screw in NG jet. Whats the Problem?" To that Christy replied AGAIN that "in addition to changing orifices, gas pressure must be adjusted by a screw or spring/screw combination normally located on the gas valve or a seperate regulator on the appliance. You have to use a manometer to set the proper pressure AT EACH APPLIANCE gas valve... Improperly converted appliances can over fire or underfire, resulting in cracked heat exchangers, flame roll out, sooted up flues, etc... Many people in the past, when converting water heaters just changed the orifices, without changing the pressure at the water heater gas valve, thereby causing a severe overfire situation when converting from LP to natural gas...." On Jan. 24, 808am, you re-posted half of Arnie's question, followed by "He would most likely find out the Manufacturers advisability of whether his specific unit could be converted when he called for parts-But his question was whether it was doable-and it is-there are RV units that are dual fuel capable on the market..." However, LOOKING CLOSELY, THE DUAL FUEL UNIT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, IS 120 VOLT, and certainly is'nt Arnie's! Not to mention that it has absolutely nothing to do with Arnie's original question, or the fact that you don't have ANY idea what make or model of furnace he has, that you gave DANGEROUS ADVICE ON. You didn't tell him to check with the manufacturer in your first post either! Christy, who is another HVAC contractor, posted AGAIN, "It"s a problem with us HVAC contractors, we get so uptight about the idea that someone may misunderstand advice or directions, and burn something up because they made a mistake messing around with stuff like this..." Jan. 30, 9;43pm you then posted:"It has been said more than once...Arnie originally asked... Busfool answered his question directly right away (nice job) THIS IS PROBLEM TWO, HIS ANSWER ON ORIFICES WAS BACKWARDS, AND A CORRECTION HAD BEEN POSTED DAYS BEFORE! At least he did say to have a licensed installer check it, which is more than I can say for you! "There were a few posts not responsive to the question." "George responded that it CAN be done." (Thats me, it still CAN be done, But PLEASE look at what else me and Christy have said, and darn well take it to heart!) "Christy offered some cautious words of advice." "I then seconded what Busfool and everyone else had already answered." "In addition I would like to clarify that piped NG PSI is regulated by the supplier usually at the meter and there are safeguards in effect in every state that I am aware of including the requirement of the utility to inspect..." THATS PROBLEM 3, IT ISN'T EVEN RATED IN PSI! Mr. Steckbauer, on Jan. 30, you posted PART of my email to you reading >>>>>>>>'I don't want to get into a stinking contest on the board, but I can't let a post which would cause a fire go" followed by: A) Why would a proper replaced jet operating at the proper PSI melt the heat exchanger or cause a fire?" "Okay here's my apology... Sorry...that I was correct." NOW, a direct, QUALIFIED reply to your A) above! A PROPERLY CONVERTED furnace would work fine. However, THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU POSTED ABOVE. It also looks to me like you're trying to get off the subject, instead of admitting your error! Unfortunately, YOU REFUSE TO REPLY TO YOUR POST OF JAN. 25, 2007, 1:22am reading, and I quote YOU AGAIN, " Difference = Jets PSI = regulated between tank discharge/appliance input by regulator Simple modification = unscrew propane jet screw in NG jet Whats the problem? THE PROBLEM IS YOUR POST WILL START A FIRE!!!!! First error, gas delivery pressure isn't even measured in PSI! As soon as you said "PSI" it became obvious that YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED. Look at the scale on the manometer that Christy mentioned above, please! If you STILL don't understand inches of water column, go to a doctor's office and look at a sphygmomanometer, which reads in inches of mercury, but its a vertical column also. On Jan. 26, 2007 1:50 am I explained it to you ON THE BOARD, THE FIRST TIME, that "MOST propane appliance regulators provide 10 inches of water column at the orifices. Most natural gas appliance regulators provide 4 inches. ENLARGING AN ORIFICE AND LEAVING THE REGULATOR PRESSURE AT 2 1/2 TIMES WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE WILL MELT THE APPLIANCE AND/OR START A FIRE! The problem is what Niles has suggested is paragraph four (of Christy's post {another heat & air contractor} warning of overfiring, cracked heat exchangers, etc., due to improper conversions) IF your were qualified, you would also know that each appliance has its own regulator, either built in its gas valve, or immediately adjacent to it! So, SECOND PROBLEM IS THAT THE "MAIN" RV REGULATOR DOESN'T GOVERN APPLIANCE MANIFOLD PRESSURE, THE APPLIANCE VALVE OR REGULATOR DOES! INCHES OF WATER COLUMN IS THE UNIT USED TO MEASURE GAS PRESSURE IN ALL GAS SYSTEMS. 28 inches of water column equals one pound. Go now to the library and look this up in either the Uniform Plumbing Code, or the Uniform Mechanical Code. The UPC governs water heaters, The UMC governs furnaces. What you suggested in "Simple modification = unscrew propane jet/ screw in NG jet" "Whats the problem?" I explained it to you on 1/26 1:50am, I will do it in more detail AGAIN in hopes that you get it this time. Christy has already done it, eloquently as usual, but here goes. Propane is delivered to gas systems by the main house, or RV regulator, at slightly over 11 inches of water column, so that 11"WC is available to the appliance regulator after pipe friction loss. Most propane appliances run on 10"WC in their manifolds. Natural gas is regulated at 8"WC by the main regulator, and MOST NG appliances run on 3.5-4"WC manifold pressure. Firing (input) rate is determined solely by orifice size and manifold pressure. So, lets say that Arnie's furnace is rated 40,000BTU. It IS propane, so it runs on 10"WC manifold prssure. If he does EXACTLY AS YOU POSTED on 1/25, 1:22am and changes the orifice(s) to 40,000BTU NATURAL GAS SIZE, AND CONNECTS HIS BUS TO NATURAL GAS, or just the furnace, it doesn't matter, what will happen? Do the math!! When I went to grade school, 10 was 2 1/2 times, or 250% of four? So, as the manifold pressure (left at 10"WC per your "Simple modification = unscrew propane jet/screw in NG jet)" is 250% of the 4"WC for a natural gas manifold, THE FIRING RATE FOR ARNIE'S FURNACE WILL NOW BE 250% OF WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR, OR 100,000BTU!!!!!! That is why I said it will melt and/or catch fire in 2 minutes or less. I wanted you to stay on the subject at hand, but you have wandered all over. You later post: "Nonetheless I have asked two ME"s if my post was accurate and they agreed that unless a unit was specifically designed otherwise that Propane could be converted to NG and vice versa." I will guarantee you didn't show them your "Simple modification=unscrew the jet" post, or try and tell them that gas systems run on PSI. OR you didn't post their entire replies, just as you didn't post my entire email to you. In my email to you, I explained it all in detail, exactly why your post would cause a fire, AND I DEFINITELY SUGGESTED TO YOU THAT YOU REFRAIN FROM POSTING ON DANGEROUS ISSUES WHEN YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED, just to see your name in print. I meant it then, I mean it now, you owe Arnie an apology for posting a deadly suggestion without being qualified. In that same email to you, I stated my qualifications, and asked for yours. The silence is deafening! I guess Catch-22 applies here, (If you don't know what you are talking about, you don't know you said anything wrong?) I hereby apologize to the rest of the board for doing this. I tried to do it privately, and more politely, but you can see what I got in return. If Mr. Steckbauer doesn't choose to acknowledge this, fine. The time taken to produce this has not been wasted if I have prevented one fire. IMNSHO, he needs to give Arnie his asbestos coveralls, as he is the one who will need them literally. Thanks, George Todd | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 700 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
>>>>>>>I definitely am one of the people who sent you a private email, and I do wish you had paid attention to it, AND PUBLISHED ALL OF IT. <<<<< A) Mr. Todd you are the ONLY one who emailed me and your wish is my command. To wit; >>>>>>>>>>Niles, I don't want to get into a stinking contest on the board, but I can't let a post which would cause a fire go. As I said on the board, I am a licensed HVAC (Heating, Ventilating, Air Conditioning) contractor. Please note that Christy Hicks is also an HVAC contractor, and said the same thing that I did. The second and fourth paragraphs of her first post are exactly correct, and the fourth paragraph is EXACTLY what WILL happen when the wrong orifice/regulator combination is used! I am 100% certain that you have never personally put a natural gas (read larger) orifice in a propane RV furnace, without changing the furnace regulator setting,and had it operate successfully for 24 hours! As information, orifice size and regulator pressure determine the total BTU output of an appliance. Consequently, there is not "one propane orifice, and one natural gas orifice." Orifice size also changes according to altitude in permanently installed appliances, regardless of fuel. Your post on "chance the orifice, whats the problem?" was ill-advised, and would have caused a melted heat exchanger at best, if not a fire. Your second post, after Christy's second post, and my comments, didn't contain an apology for making a non-qualified post, which it should have! If the original poster had known exactly what to do, he would not have asked for help from the board... consequently he doesn't know which suggestions could be deadly. Please, do the board a favor, and resist the temptation to post on dangerous subjects you are not qualified on, just to see your name in print. I am not the "board policeman," I am just another bus nut who makes his living wiring and heating houses and commercial buildings. I acknowledge that I have no authority to chew on you, and that is not what I am trying to do, I just don't want to see somebody get hurt! Respectfully, George Todd | | | | | Inbox <<<<<<<<<<<<<< A) FROM THE AMAERICAN GAS ASSOCIATION; >>>>>>>>>>>>Moving Natural Gas Into the Home Natural gas runs from the main into a home or business in what's called a service line. Today, this line is likely to be a small-diameter plastic line an inch or less in diameter, with gas flowing at a pressure range of over 60 pounds to as low as ¼ pound. When the gas passes through a customer's gas meter, it becomes the property of the customer. Once inside the home, gas travels to equipment and appliances through piping installed by the home-builder and owned by the customer, who is responsible for its upkeep. Most gas meters are connected to an inner or outer wall of a home or business. In some instances, however, meters are located next to the point where the service line meets the main line. In this case, the piping from the meter to the structure is the customer's property, not the gas company's. These are called "customer-owned" lines and their maintenance is the responsibility of the customer. When the gas reaches a customer's meter, it passes through another regulator to reduce its pressure to under ¼ pound, if this is necessary. (Some services lines carry gas that is already at very low pressure.) This is the normal pressure for natural gas within a household piping system, and is less than the pressure created by a child blowing bubbles through a straw in a glass of milk. When a gas furnace or stove is turned on, the gas pressure is slightly higher than the air pressure, so the gas flows out of the burner and ignites in its familiar clean blue flame. <<<<<<<<<<<< A) Now you made me go and reference the NFPA and I'm going straight to Section 1192 specifically RV's; >>>>>>> NFPA 1192 5.2.15.1 First-stage regulators shall have an outlet gauge pressure setting up to 10.0 psi (***** why the heck does the NFPA use PSI in their description instead of "water column inches"? - Because " 1" of water column = 0.0360 PSI and 1 PSI = 27.7612 inches of water column inches" - Same difference as millibars and inches of mercury - I used PSI in my post because I am quite sure the people reading the post are more familiar with PSI values than "water column inches" - I guess I'm in good company with the NFPA *******) >>>>>>>>>THIS IS PROBLEM TWO, HIS ANSWER ON ORIFICES WAS BACKWARDS, AND A CORRECTION HAD BEEN POSTED DAYS BEFORE! At least he did say to have a licensed installer check it, which is more than I can say for you! <<<<<<<<<<< A) Jeez - you and Christy already had corrected his error - What do you want me to do, Pile up on him - I'm sure he just mis-typed - If we're gonna get crucified for inadvertent errors on the board then why post at all - No one here to my knowledge has claimed to be super human. Back to NFPA 1192 Section 5.4.3 "Propane Appliance Utilization. Propane Appliances shall be listed for use with propane only or for use with both natural gas and propane where convertible from natural gas to propane and vice versa." (******* Why is there a provision in NFPA for this IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE ********) - almost my words verbatim. NFPA 1192 Section 5.4.4 "Conversion of Aplliances. Fuel-burning Appliances shall not be converted from one fuel to another unless converted in accordance with the terms of their listings and the appliance manufacturer's instructions" (******* WHAT I SAID " He would most likely find out the Manufacturers advisability of whether his specific unit could be converted when he called for parts " ********) >>>>>>>>>>> I wanted you to stay on the subject at hand, but you have wandered all over. You later post: "Nonetheless I have asked two ME"s if my post was accurate and they agreed that unless a unit was specifically designed otherwise that Propane could be converted to NG and vice versa." I will guarantee you didn't show them your "Simple modification=unscrew the jet" post, or try and tell them that gas systems run on PSI. OR you didn't post their entire replies, just as you didn't post my entire email to you. In my email to you, I explained it all in detail, exactly why your post would cause a fire, AND I DEFINITELY SUGGESTED TO YOU THAT YOU REFRAIN FROM POSTING ON DANGEROUS ISSUES WHEN YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED, just to see your name in print. I meant it then, I mean it now, you owe Arnie an apology for posting a deadly suggestion without being qualified. In that same email to you, I stated my qualifications, and asked for yours. The silence is deafening! I guess Catch-22 applies here, (If you don't know what you are talking about, you don't know you said anything wrong?) <<<<<<<<<<< A) The ME's saw it all - You only showed how an incorrect conversion could cause a fire, not that a correct conversion would - Mr. Todd you are not the only licensed HVAC contractor as I have previously been an interim license holder by the state of FLA as both a Electrical and and a Mechanical Contractor (without incident) and currently a Class "A" Certified Contractor in FLA. You may have been taught all you know by someone else and follow the instructions as a contractor should, but I am referencing the people who write the instructions. >>>>>>>>>>>In that same email to you, I stated my qualifications, and asked for yours. The silence is deafening! I guess Catch-22 applies here, (If you don't know what you are talking about, you don't know you said anything wrong?)<<<<<<<<< DONE - Now can we get back to the question and answer Arnie WHY (not how) he can't convert his Furnace? | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 80 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Steckbauer, You have again failed to respond to the problem you suggested. Please respond to your incorrect and deadly post: "Unscrew the propane jet/screw in the NG jet Whats the problem?" Then you did the other thing I asked you not to, and wandered away. You really had to work to find a pressure rating on a first stage regulator, which is indeed 10 pounds. THERE IS NOT A NATURAL GAS UTILITY COMPANY IN THE UNITED STATES THAT USES A FIRST STAGE REGULATOR IN A RESIDENTIAL APPLICATION. Manometers used to set ALL gas appliances are graduated in inches of water column, as are ALL gas appliances. No, me and Christy don't want you to "pile on somebody else" (your words) we don't want you to use another incorrect post as support for your incorrect post! "Jeez, he just mis-typed." Arnies furnace won't catch fire at 250% of rating because somebody mis-typed? Now you write: "You only showed how an incorrect conversion could cause a fire, not that a correct conversion would-..." DUH! I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET YOU TO UNDERSTAND FOR DAYS THAT THE CONVERSION METHOD YOU POSTED WOULD CAUSE A FIRE. I can't get you to acknowledge what you said, you deliberately avoid the issue! Only one more problem with what you have said, BOTH THE UNIFORM PLUMBING CODE, AND THE UNIFORM MECHANICAL CODE, which govern gas pressure inside buildings use Inches of Water Column as the unit of measurement, as do ALL RV and residential appliance manufacturers! When are you going to fess up and admit your post was wrong? INTEGRITY will make this go away. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 701 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
>>>>>>>>>Manometers used to set ALL gas appliances are graduated in inches of water column, as are ALL gas appliances. >>>>>>>>Only one more problem with what you have said, BOTH THE UNIFORM PLUMBING CODE, AND THE UNIFORM MECHANICAL CODE, which govern gas pressure inside buildings use Inches of Water Column as the unit of measurement, as do ALL RV and residential appliance manufacturers A) Definition - "inch of water column (in WC)" = a traditional unit of pressure, used in plumbing to describe both water and gas pressures. The conventional equivalent of one inch of water is 249.0889 pascals, which is 2.490 889 millibars, about 0.036 127 pounds per square inch (psi) or about 0.073 556 inches (1.868 32 millimeters) of mercury - the only difference is the diaphram size and the PSIG (taking into account the atmospheric pressure which in an RV would vary according to elevation whether it was Propane or NG) - DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? >>>>>>>>>THERE IS NOT A NATURAL GAS UTILITY COMPANY IN THE UNITED STATES THAT USES A FIRST STAGE REGULATOR IN A RESIDENTIAL APPLICATION A) Errrr.... 1192 is the RV Code.... No I'm not gonna bore the rest of the people by quoting all the references to PSI in that section - You can read it for yourself. >>>>>>>>>Arnies furnace won't catch fire at 250% of rating because somebody mis-typed A) Where did I suggest that Arnie regulate his supply at 250% of its rating? >>>>>>>>>Now you write: "You only showed how an incorrect conversion could cause a fire, not that a correct conversion would-..." DUH! A) DOUBLE DUH! >>>>>>>>>Then you did the other thing I asked you not to - When are you going to fess up and admit your post was wrong? - INTEGRITY will make this go away. A) Its obvious to me at this point that you have issues with people who disagree with you - so I will cease the discourse as it appears to be digressing into a semantical debate - I hope that Arnie has gleaned enough info at this point to answer his question - | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 279 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
ROTFLMAO Thanks guys, I enjoyed it! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.214.62 Rating: N/A |
Good grief!!!!.  RCB |
