| Author | Message | ||
| Robert Munrow (152.163.205.66)
Rating: N/A |
I live in the state of confusion called Illinois. I have gone to the drivers license bureau and they tell me to drive a converted bus I will need a B license with an air brake endorsement. I have checked with a Ill. state trooper DOT man and he claims I will need a cdl with air brake and passenger endorsement. I really don't know who to believe. Can anyone tell me the federal classfication required and the number of the law that governs that so I know where I stand. Thank you for all help rendered. Bob | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.8.58)
Rating: N/A |
Bob - The problem is the language you used when talking to the DMV. When you said "converted bus", all the DVM and PD heard was "BUS", which, of course, requires a CDL. Call them on the phone and ask what type of a license is required to drive "a forty-foot motorhome". DO NOT mention the word BUS at all. If they're still confused, whip out page 4 of the Commercial Driver's Study Guide with the "Recreational Vehicle" paragraph highlighted, and wave it in front of them. Here's the link, it's an Adobe PDF file. Print it out for future reference. https://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_cdl10.pdf Have fun! RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.218.52)
Rating: N/A |
Good advice RJ. It's no longer a bus when it is a motorhome. Peter. | ||
| DaveD (216.18.113.69)
Rating: N/A |
However, because it is airbrake equipped, you will most likely still need an air brake endorsement. Dave D | ||
| jmaxwell (66.42.92.55) Rating: N/A |
Dave: Now ure sounding like the clerk at DMV! RJ gave Bob the "bible" to stand on. The key word here is RV. Even the new CA law on overlength RV's requiring an endorsement has nothing to do with air brakes. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.218.52)
Rating: N/A |
No endorsement needed for air brakes in Az for RVs. | ||
| Jayjay (209.180.153.6) Rating: N/A |
No endorsement in Ohio either. ...JJ | ||
| DaveD (166.90.228.98)
Rating: N/A |
I hate to sound so serious, but it's impportant to understand how airbrakes work and I think that's the reason many jurisdictions require an airbrake endorsement regardless of whether the vehicle is an RV or a commerical vehicle. While airbrakes are much more powerful than hydraulic brakes, they are much less forgiving of such things as poor adjustment or poor maintenance. Even if an airbake endorsement is not required in your state or province, it would be a good idea to take an airbrake course anyway. IMHO DaveD | ||
| Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.7)
Rating: N/A |
Almost all of the new "entry level" diesel pusher factory motorhomes are now delivered with air brakes. No special licensing is required to purchase and drive one of these new units off the sales lot. The title reads 2002 XXXX Motorhome on these new units. My title now reads 1984 MCI Motorhome complements of the Michigan Sec/State. Although an airbrake course is a good idea, there can be some drawbacks to seeking endorsements that are simply not needed to meet the minimum legal requirements. FWIW, Steve | ||
| Jerry (152.163.204.84)
Rating: N/A |
I too live in Illinois (near St Louis) and went through the same thing. When I found out what I Really needed to do it boiled down to getting a "C" class licence -- any "single vehicle 26000# or less." It required a written exam and a driving test. My 4106 bus wasn't anywhere nearly ready for the driving test (nor was my experience with its manual transmission) so I rented a 26000# Ryder truck (with an automatic!) just to get the test over with. When I registered my 4106 I simply told them ith GVWR was 26000#. I've also have the "official" Illinois list or requirements for the conversion from bus to RV if you need it. Jerry 4106-1750 | ||
| Don KS/TX (67.210.119.35)
Rating: N/A |
Lets not get the requirements too confused, I am sure an RV or bus dealer will sell a unit to ANYONE with the cash, drivers license or not, and be happy to see them drive off the lot. Also in most states, you can "title" or "register" a vehicle as anything you want it to read. I am not sure you can fool everyone into believing you are driving a motorized bicycle, just because you got such a license. The real question I think is if calling it a motorhome makes it a motorhome. | ||
| dougthebonifiedbusnut (24.218.115.126)
Rating: N/A |
the cdl means commercial drivers license a motor home is not a commercial vehical it is a private vehical i dont care if it has atomic brakes dont let your beaurocresies know any more than it takes to registre your motorhome | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.212.26)
Rating: N/A |
Doug, my sentiments exactly. Btw, who is installing your atomic brakes for you? The guy I was going to buy mine from turned a sort of greenish glow and vaporized before we could cement the deal. Peter. | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.87.61) Rating: N/A |
""When I registered my 4106 I simply told them ith GVWR was 26000#."" This is a sure ticket to the jail house. Although the 06 with out seats , air cond and pax radiator is well under 20,000 the conversion will usually run 4000+ for even the simplest . Personal goodies can bring you way over 26,000. I have an extrodanarly simple & light conversion and usually run 28.5 thru the Cat scales. The problem could come from having to stop ( after 9-11) for a check at a weigh station. Or After a fender bender, where a sharp liar for hire asks for your baby to be weighed. Either way your DEAD. You probably wont be able to heave enough personal stuff to ever get out of a weigh station , till you re- register the coach. The liar for hire would find your registration a FRAUD , pay the widdow of the drunk, your fault. There is concern on bridges too , some eastern states in tourist areas have a nice ca$h business of stopping out of state RV's and trucks after a smallish bridge on a used route , and having them drive on the portable scales they brought. Even if it was OK for the bridge weights , they will ticket you for being OVERWEIGHT! Best is to use 32,000 GVW , and make sure your tires are not undersized. FAST FRED | ||
| Don KS/TX (205.187.92.192)
Rating: N/A |
A few tips from an old portable scale guy - me. Fred, you luck out in several more ways you might not even be aware of. A CDL requirement was NEVER based on what it actually weighed, only on the Gross Vehicle Weight RATING, GVWR. A 4106 was built before they had the "compliance stickers", so there is no such thing as a GVWR for a 4106, and I cannot imagine a state actually asking you to determine that figure. I would consider an answer "the maker did not determine one" to be a much better answer, and truthful. For us with newer buses, the law reads that if the sticker is removed, it must be assumed it was done to violate the law, and you are in automatic non-compliance. Now if you run 28.5k bus over a 20k rated bridge and crunch it, I suggest you rip off the plates and run very, very fast. | ||
| Tuck-04 (64.53.32.85) Rating: N/A |
Let me get my ole 4104 in h ere. weighs 24600 lbs with full fuel and me on it. I am a ole retired state trooper and mine dont have a GVWR tag either.. I called the Lic division they said I can drive it on a reg license. A bus by diefinition is a veh that will carry 15 people plus the driver. Ga law says ANY veh Equipped as temp living with self propelled like a RV or Motorhome can be operated on a reg license. I really dont think any of them know how to classify us. Tuck | ||
| Donald Schwanke (205.187.92.115)
Rating: N/A |
Of course they don't, that is why we get so many opinions, we got dropped in the middle. Most laws say a bus is a vehicle ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to carry 15 or more people etc. Pretty hard to change the original design. By Georgia definition, I would then be able to tag my Kenworth with a car tag and save myself almost $2500 a year in fees! Maybe that was not a direct quote? :-) | ||
| Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.7)
Rating: N/A |
Donald, My guess is that is exactly how Kingsley Coach is title'ng their conversion trucks, as a motorhome. I've seen some very large "cabins" behind the cabs of some of the big van line rigs. My guess is that the living spaces are getting quite elaborate in those things. Do they have permanant cooking, sleeping, and toilet facilities? If so you could call it a motorhome. However, you could not hook up a trailer and haul commercial goods. Again, most of this is just guessing based on trying to interpet what the various legislators had in mind. Personal, recreational use vs. commercial operations. Steve | ||
| Don Peter (172.145.90.207)
Rating: N/A |
The simple fact of the matter is that on any given day in any given state in any given motor vehicle department there will be an employee that is clueless. My luck always has me finding that employee. At that point, quit and try another office. If necessary, find another state. Once you have achieved registration as an RV somewhere, most motor vehicle departments will agree with it. Our 1953 4104 was purchased from a commuter bus line in California in 1983. The owners then moved it to Washington State, started the conversion and got it registered there as a NON-commercial vehicle. Since then it has been registered in California and Arizona as a NON-commercial vehicle with no problems. Last time in AZ it cost about $35. -- Don | ||
| Phil (204.89.170.3) Rating: N/A |
From the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law under definitions for CDL requirements: 501-a(4)(b):...a commercial motor vehicle shall not include: (i)a personal use vehicle...... 501-a(8):Personal use vehicle: A vehicle constructed or altered to be used for recreational purposes which is exclusivly used to transport family members and/or personal possesions of such family members for non-business recreational purposes by the operator...... Written by the Legislature, signed by the governor and found for your reading pleasure by a "damned incompetent bureaucrat"  | ||
| Don KS/TX (205.187.92.194)
Rating: N/A |
Darn Phil, that is the best I have seen from any state, and I always thought NY was not a thinking state. Takes guts too, to amend a federal definition by a state statute! I am all for the wise ones that made that law. Thanks for sharing it with us. | ||
| Phil (204.89.170.3) Rating: N/A |
Don't compliment NY too soon as there are 658 pages in teh V&T law. Some State Trooper may find another part to hang you with!!!! | ||
| Phil (204.89.170.3) Rating: N/A |
Looking further in the NY law the limits on a class "D" standard operators license is the magic 26000 pounds. As I am tired of writting a repeat of the law, suffice it to say there is a requirement for a "personal use endorsement" over this COMBINED GVWR. The following is from the DMV Commissioners Regulations Part 3: "Personal use vehicle endorsement. An R endorsement is the personal use vehicle endorsement. It is required on a non-CDL for operation of recreational vehicles and rental vehicles over 26,000 pounds GVWR for transportation of personal household goods. It shall be issued upon passage of a skills test in a recreational vehicle over 26,000 pounds GVWR when the licensee has not passed a CDL knowledge test." Aren't laws and regulations fun?? This is commonly refered to as the oxymoron "non-commercial CDL". This is the requirement for a New York licensed driver operating an over 26000 pound recreational vehicle in New York. Generally, reciprocity only requires you to meet the requirements for the state you are licinsed in. Be careful, for as you can see many of the laws and regulations are overlapping. This is why you may get inconsistant answers from those "Damned incompetent bureaucrats". Some of us really do try!!! As you can see from my posts it took some time to find this. | ||
| Don KS/TX (205.187.92.251)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I still applaud you for digging it out and sharing it with us. I tend to get a little tired of the so called factual preaching, that "my son mows grass for the brother of a ex patrolmans wife, and HE SAYS blah, blah." In comparison with other states, it appears that NY has actually given it some realistic thought. Once it is at that stage, changes and clarifications can be next. | ||
| Don Peter (172.170.125.240)
Rating: N/A |
Has anyone here actually been pulled over and ticketed for driving their bus without a CDL? And no stories of friends and in-laws. Just a 1st person report. Thanks -- Don | ||
| Scott Whitney (24.205.239.4) Rating: N/A |
Hi Don, Exactly. I presented that challenge on MAKs board several months ago and have yet to hear of one single first hand incident. I also requested of my mom, who studies case law, to try to find an example using her resources of any such occurance. So far to date: zilch. The point is that 'laws' aren't really laws until they are enforced, challenged, and upheld in a court. Until then, they are just dribble in some state archive and are WIDE open for interpretation. (IMO) Scott | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach) (204.245.250.132)
Rating: N/A |
Scott is so right when he talks about the interpretation of the law. I am now in a protracted conversation with the Department of Licensing and the Washington State Patrol Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Office. Because my buses that I use as buses are in for hire service, I am required to purchase truck plates and pay tonnage. My church's bus is allowed to use passenger car plates because it is not used for hire. Buses used by public schools or owned by companies that transport public school kids to and from school are allowed to use exempt plates. The difference between the three plates is the exempt plates don't cost anything, the car plates cost $35.00, and the truck plates cost $250+ per year. In my interpretation, in the interpretation of my local county auditor, and my contact at the DOL, if a bus is used for hire it must have a truck plate and pay tonnage. Imagine my consternation when I see a certain Canadian school bus contractor using buses on charters with exempt or passenger plates. The response from the DOL is they are not an enforcement agency and I should direct my question to the WSP. The WSP response is the contractor told the WSP everything was hunky-dory and if I have any questions I should ask the DOL. The point of the story is if the CVEO is not going to hassle vehicles that they have the authority and responsiblity to inspect, what is the possibility they are going to hassle some gray hair in a conversion that they really don't have the authority to inspect? I would guess it is considerably less than 1%. Happy trails. Mark O. | ||
| mfh (66.81.159.237)
Rating: N/A |
O.K. Also as a newbie, I am a bit concerned...RJ states the MCI-5a has a GVWR of 32k lbs. I am NY state driver, so the limit on the straight license is 26klbs...but the vehicle I am looking at tips the scales fully loaded at 24k lbs...is there a GVWR tag on the MCI-5a? Am I being "cheeky" trying to register it at the actual weight? On the form there are two slots...one for dry weight and the other for gross weight... One post mentioned weigh stations...do conversions have to stop at such points? Again any insight would be great... Cheers, Matt | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.170.181.125)
Rating: N/A |
NO, NO, NO and NO. What you are buying is an RV, not a commercial vehicle. Even if it weighed 75,000 lbs you could drive it on a regular operator's license, aka class 'D'. RV's are exempt from commercial license requirements. Texas is the only state I know of so far that requires additional testing and licensing for heavy RV's, but it still is not a commercial license. Conversions do not have to stop at weigh stations, but read the signs at each one to make sure. Florida, on I-10 this winter, required rental trucks (U-Hauls) no matter the weight, to stop at the weigh station. Saw a DOT cop go after a small Ryder cube van that couldn't have weighed 10,000 lb who didn't stop. Real unusual situation. Jim | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.32)
Rating: N/A |
Jim....Class "E" in NM. Don't ask me how, why or for any printed matter to prove it. I only know that an inquiry to the MVD in Las Cruces, Santa Fe (state MVD HQs, Alamogordo and Hatch, the state Patrol ( I have a friend who is a state cop and drives a commercial unit car-- specifically responsible for highway transportation enforcement) all said class "E". Both my wife and I obtained one and only on the strength of an affadavit that the unit we would be driving was not a "commercial" vehicle. The endorsement on our licenses states "E". Since E is one down from D, does that make ours surpass the requirements of a D? Don't know, don't think I'll push on it. Air brake test was waived, for whatever reason. RCB | ||
| Chris Risley (64.105.34.10)
Rating: N/A |
What does a converted MCI-5a weigh?....I know it varies but somebody out there has a ballpark figure. Thanks | ||
| Phil (204.89.170.3) Rating: N/A |
Matt, Please see the post of March 22 in this thread. As a NY resident these are your requirements if over 26,000 pounds. | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905) (206.15.152.22)
Rating: N/A |
Bob I thought you might just check all the states you would normally drive through. You will find that they will honor you state law. All the states I go through have no reqiurements for the lic. Now don't think that reg laws are the smae. Most states reqiure a weight statement or a ID plate with gvw listed if there is any doubt. Don't ask about a bus, ask about an RV. don't open any doors that you can't close. Don't ask any questions that you aren't pretty sure you the answer to. MIke | ||
| Tom Hamrick (Tomhamrick) (167.83.101.23)
Rating: N/A |
North Carolina requires a Class "B" non-CDL if over 26,000# GVW, even if it is a motorhome (it is on the DOT web site). I would dare say that most drivers of motorhomes in that class do not have the right license. I plan to get a class "B" just to be safe. Tom Hamrick Eagle 10S | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.144.133.124)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry guys-- Stuck in NH and having only Federal requirements and no additional NH restrictions has led me to informational breakdown. I had no idea so many states had additional requirements over 26K lbs. Guess everybody has to check their own statutes and not rely on any Bulleting Board or DOT office hearsay. Maybe someone with extra time on his/her hands could compile an accurate, comprehensive list of states that have requirements over and above the Federal ones. Sure would stop my and other's mis-information dead in it's tracks! Jim | ||
| MCI-96A2 (65.80.150.15)
Rating: N/A |
re: Jim's iea above. Great idea, but unfortunately, a compiled accurate, comprehensive list of states that have requirements over and above the Federal ones, would only be up to date at the moment the author was researching the information. The laws can change at any time and keeping such a document up to date would be a never ending thankless task. Only solution is to keep up with the laws in our own state (as difficult and confusing as that is). |