| Author | Message | ||
| Dave Knight (Dax)
Registered Member Username: Dax Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 198.60.114.188 Rating: N/A |
Hi all, I've been lurking for a while and trying to learn all I can. I hope I'm not already breaking a rule here but I'm in a quandary. Pretty much everything that I've read and heard says that I should talk to people who work at a bus company and see what I can learn from them. Well, I've talked to three people in three different parts of the country each has told me in strong terms that they would never recommend a person buying a bus from their company. Each one says that by the time they let a bus go it's amazing it can even run and hold together and they would never touch them. Assuming that this is representative of many or maybe even the vast majority of companies this tells me that pretty much all of the buses out there to be had by me are thrashed. My question is are all of these MCI's ranging from the 8's to the 102A3's all junk and money pits or are there some to be had that are still solid? Most of what I've heard is frame\chassis related problems. Corrosion,rot, stress etc.. I'm well aware that pretty much anything would need work and I'm prepared for that but if they are all past the point where they begin to decline and everything is failing then what do you do? | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 660 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.174.79.229 Rating: N/A |
You can find a well taken care of bus out there. It just depends on what you want to spend. I purchased mine from a guy who had spent lots of money on it after he bought it just making upgrades. It had very little rust and most of it was repaired by me. needs repairs around windshields when I replace them. It had a DDEC motor upgrade with Radiator upgrade and Tranny upgrade. He just lost interest. and took a beating. look for the same type of situation where some one has done all the upgrades, major repairs and run out of money or lost interest before they started the conversion process. Just get it checked out real good by somebody that knows what their doing and good luck | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
I agree with Capt'n Ron in that there are still well maintained and solid older buses out there to be found IF you are willing to do your homework and take your time looking. For example, if you are looking for a fleet unit (not previously converted) narrow your search to the following: 1. southwestern coaches, not exposed to much rust or corrosion 2. One owner, owned and operated by a financially stable operator who understands the payback for maintenance dollars spent 3. Review the maintenance records, a good operator will keep impecable records-it's the law. 4. Don't let a lot of miles on the odometer scare you if the bus has been maintained correctly. In the years that I operated buses I was able to find quite a few "cream puffs" out there, and learned that paying a few dollars more upfront was more than worth it. It's just a matter of whether you want to spend it up front or down the road. Oh yeah; a great source for finding out who operates the best equipment is the factory service reps (MCI, Prevost, VanHool, etc). It is their job to visit the operators regularly and they know how they operate and when units are coming up for disposal. I got a lot of great leads that way. Good luck! | ||
| Dave Knight (Dax)
Registered Member Username: Dax Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 198.60.114.188 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the advice and input guys. How does one find and meet a service rep? What sorts of things seem to be common areas of concern ( mostly looking at MCI)? Are any of these places that sell from lots any good or trouble? It seems to be a shared view to avoid ex hound buses though, true? Where else is a good place to start looking? Personally I'd really prefer to take someones project off their hands as mentioned as long as they haven't hacked it up worse than a garage. Something with at least some of the work begun already but I'd like to do most of it myself. No, I'm not posting bus wanted, I'm not quite ready yet and know this isn't the place. Thanks! -Dave | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
Two ways to contact a regional service rep: Go to the manufacturer's web site, and/or call their toll free number and ask for the number of whatever regions rep you are looking for. Most of these guys are total experts in the construction and maintenance of the brands they represent; usually great guys too. 'Course I'm spoiled-I was a Prevost customer. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 281 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
Something else to consider, There are a lot of jerks & morons out there looking for a free lunch & someone to blame when they make a bad decision. If the fleet mechanic doesn't know you, he is going to be very cautious to avoid possible hassles later. So to get the real story, you must first get to know the mechanic. Buy him lunch & let him tell you about the buses. Let him get to know you & what you want the old bus for. You may be surprised at how much he can teach you & how many options there are. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1189 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.127.101 Rating: N/A |
Dave - Isn't Lewis Bros. Stages still operating in the SLC area? They've been around a LONG time, and have a good reputation in the industry as a respected carrier. Might want to talk to them, see about purchasing one of their coaches that's still in revenue service but is getting close to retirement. Another idea is to change your question to the shop foreman a little. Ask him if he were a real busnut, and wanted to purchase a bus from the boss, which one in the fleet would he choose, and why. Good Luck on your search!  | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.141 Rating: N/A |
"Buy him lunch & let him tell you about the buses. " I had a quick vision of poor Ol' Dave heavily wrapped in bandages after asking a mechanic out to lunch..... Coming soon to your local theater: "Brokeback Garage" (not that there's anything wrong with that) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 282 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
John, strange your mind would read as much into that statement so quickly. (Message edited by kyle4501 on February 09, 2007) | ||
| Dave Knight (Dax)
Registered Member Username: Dax Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 198.60.114.188 Rating: N/A |
I'm still laughing though and thanks everyone for the great advice. To be honest, part of why it took me a long time to post here is because if and when I posted to other places I was ignored or got really short answers. (Message edited by Dax on February 09, 2007) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.108 Rating: N/A |
Dave - There is no such thing as a "foolish question" on this board... (plenty of foolish answers.... 99% mine, however) The bus garage I took mine to, told me the bus was total trash, and tried to sell me one of his... (one of his former mechanics laughed, and told me his former boss's buses were trash).. But when I insisted on keeping the bus, and wanted an estimate to compare with another estimate I had, the song was different. I needed a total of around 5k in repairs... maybe less, if things went smoothly.. So as a previous poster said... beware of the BS. Oh..... and welcome to the hell errrr..... hobby. | ||
| Dave Knight (Dax)
Registered Member Username: Dax Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 198.60.114.188 Rating: N/A |
"Oh..... and welcome to the hell errrr..... hobby." Thanks, I've been involved with a few other money pit hobbies in my time but this may be the most hair brained. Boats, an airplane, motorcycles, many old cars and I guess the house I live in but out of them all the idea of a bus is something that in a million years I would have never guessed I'd have interest in. They seem very complex and semi basic at the same time and I guess that's the attraction, understanding how they work and putting them to work in a manner that suits me. I guess the price of boys toys really does just get higher and higher. I'm afraid I have some sort of bug now but we'll see if I can turn it into anything fruitful. Right now I'm trying to navigate through the little ins and outs of learning how best to work in this world of buses and come out with what I want. When I got the flying bug I took a part time job at the airport in a charter\flight school operation and ended up owning my own plane. I learned a lot but I can't see me working in a bus garage! I'll figure it out....I hope! | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 654 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
about half of us here are licensed pilots,same with motorcycles,there is bound to be someone in SLC that can help you in your decision,99% of the buses you will find,were passenger service,so don't rule them out,or you will be tuneing yourself out of the ballpark. | ||
| Jerome Dusenberry (Jerry32)
Registered Member Username: Jerry32 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 148.78.243.50 Rating: N/A |
You can't expect to buy a four hundred thousand dollar bus for 10 per sent of that and expect it to be like new. I started with a 1947 Navion aircraft and had to do repairs as I went along but that didn't stop me from buying a 1965 Baron with over ten thousand hours on the airframe and had it for 18 years and they anren't cheap to fix but I enjoyed it all along. Now I am starting with a bus that has 600 thousand miles on it and don't expect that to be easy either. Jerry | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 655 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
just depends on how it was taken care of,my Eagle has 925,000 & it still rides like a dream & performs just like new, lots of people want a bus to be a motorhome ,and a racer, got to have more speed, R.V. ing is not a race..got to learn to smell the roses, I like going 60 to 70 & watching the deer & the little animals along the way. if I want to go fast,I get on my 170 mph motorcycle | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.69.44.219 Rating: N/A |
Hey Bob, I thought you had a Harley. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 656 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
no hardly for me only way a hardley will go 170 is if it's pulled by a Honda (Message edited by bob greenwood on February 10, 2007) | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
Boy, I guess we really blew it. We've purchased three busses so far, two shells and a converted 4107, without having anyone inspect any of them for us. Maybe we were just lucky, but we kind of thought that looking them over thoroughly and test driving them would give us a basic feel for what shape they were in. Maybe if we were buying a $20,000+ shell we might feel different, but in our price range, well, we just didn't expect to find a bus that wouldn't need some work. I'm not sure how much it would cost to have a truly thorough inspection done, but it seems like it would take several hours and a fair amount of work to check everything completely, and, well, is that really going to mean that you won't have a breakdown after purchase? I guess we just assumed that if we were going to purchase an $8,000-12,000 shell, well, we would occasionally have to do repairs. Some busses we examined were in pretty rough shape. . I mean, it was pretty obvious that they had been "gone through", but even though the ones we did purchase were clean and straight and ran great, we still assumed that at some point, we could end up rebuilding a motor or tranny. Of course, if you know a good mechanic, and you can have a complete inspection done cheaply enough, that would be great, but I gotta tell you, it sems to me that if you are buying a shell for under $10,000, you can expect to stick money into it, and it's likely that a mechanic can find $5000-$10,000 worth of work to do on pretty much any older bus. If you find a shell that starts easy, that doesn't smoke after initial start up, that holds the air, one that drives well, that has good oil pressure, one that's straight and the bay doors all work, one that's not rusted out, well, heck, what more can you ask? I would also suggest that if a person doesn't have enough spare money to pay for an engine rebuild or other major repair, well, you probably don't want a bus. I would think that if money is that tight, well, buying and converting one of these is going to be more heartache than joy. Maybe that sounds harsh, but I feel like it's worth considering. Again, maybe we're just lucky, and I'm sure no bus expert by any means, that's for sure. . just wanted to give a different perspective. Christy Hicks | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 207.179.92.18 Rating: N/A |
Get a subscription to Bus Conversion Mag or other. Get back issues and READ READ READ! A great friend of mine had several years of back issues and I poured over them for months. I looked at a few busses in lower Michigan and then found one partially converted on Ebay - Captain Ron's old bus. I asked tons of questions and still do! You can definatley find a bus in your budget and be happy as long as you have made the preparations. Also decide in advance what you plan to build. Do you (AND YOUR SPOUSE/SIGNIFICSANT OTHER!) want a glorious motorhome, or just a reliable big camper? How important are the cosmetics of the vehicle? I was more concerned with fucntion over form. My wife and I have had a ball with ours and can't wait till spring! | ||
| Dave Knight (Dax)
Registered Member Username: Dax Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 198.60.114.188 Rating: N/A |
I'm pretty much prepared for the idea of LOT'S of work and money going into a bus. I'd be a fool to expect anything less and I'd be buying a Winnie or skipping it altogether and staying in a Marriott for the money. The only thing that I want to try to know beforehand is what to expect. If I were someone who expected to get something used and cheap and would not or could not put any work into it then a bus would be about the last thing I'd look at. Let's put it this way, if you had never owned a car before wouldn't it be reasonable to try to find out how they worked and what kind of upkeep they require before you just up and bought one? About me: I've restored cars, boats and motorcycles, some that people never wanted because they were too ugly needing too much work in their eyes and yet they've turned out to be beautiful after the work I put into them and I'm currently restoring a '68 Dodge Charger - ground up. I've done all the work on my boats,cars etc including what I was allowed on my airplane (I'm not an A&P) and it didn't scare me except the airplane a little at first. Not the place to find out you screwed something up. My current boat is beautiful and runs like a champ but wasn't like that when we got her. I'm not really afraid of this or I wouldn't look into it. Just trying to get a feel for the beasts and the people who own them. I'm not afraid of the work, I'm afraid of the unknown which is prudent. -Dave | ||
| Dave Knight (Dax)
Registered Member Username: Dax Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 198.60.114.188 Rating: N/A |
"If you find a shell that starts easy, that doesn't smoke after initial start up, that holds the air, one that drives well, that has good oil pressure, one that's straight and the bay doors all work, one that's not rusted out, well, heck, what more can you ask?" That sounds exactly like what I'd be pleased to find. Now, not knowing much yet the hard part is learning to recognize all of that, where to find it and how much is fair to pay for it. -Dave | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
With your experience, I just don't think you'll have problems. One thing that helps us is that you can get manuals for these old busses. . .and there's a lot of info in those manuals. For instance, our 4107 had a clicking relay. . .out comes the book and sure enough, there is a very clear diagram showing each relay and circuit breaker, what they went to, etc. Pretty cool! Then, you have these guys on these forums. . .and boy, if it's something you need to know, you'll always find someone who knows exactly what to tell you. I just can't get over the wide range of experience and expertise available in the membership of the various bus groups. You have a huge group of mechanics, engineers, contractors, drivers, trainers. . .well, basically, any questions you have will be answered by at least one, possibly many professionals. There is absolutely no tool, no book, nothing you could buy for any amount of money that beats what you get for free here. I continually stand in awe. Christy Hicks | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 661 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.174.79.235 Rating: N/A |
Glen, Ga lad you and the wife are happy. Every time I see that thing in your posts it brings a smile to my face, I kinda miss the old girl. Keep me updated on your progress, pictures too. | ||
| Muddog16 (Muddog16)
Registered Member Username: Muddog16 Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.224.189.139 Rating: N/A |
Dave, ask questions, ask questions and ask more questions, don't be afraid of hurting the sellers feelings.........afterall its your money and the odds are you worked your butt off for it! Make sure the guy can look you in the eye and isn't wearing white shoes and belt......dead giveaway! | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.130 Rating: N/A |
Dave - "- I've restored cars, boats and motorcycles - The only thing that I want to try to know beforehand is what to expect. - to try to find out how they worked and what kind of upkeep they require - I'm not afraid of the work, I'm afraid of the unknown which is prudent." The big difference between a bus and all the rest you've had, is the enormous weight of the vehicle, and the enormous weight of it's mechanical components. As stated earlier, you'd want to buy the original manuals for your make and model of bus (buy the paper versions). Get the parts manual as well, since it'll give you a breakaway of how the $^%^@# stuff is assembled. You'll need tools designed for heavy equipment. Your tools for auto/marine/aircraft just won't do. You'll need a jack to lift at least 20 tons, and heavy wood blocks (R/R ties are good), to block the bus after lifting (never trust a jack). An air supply to be able to use air tools designed for heavy equipment (Trucks/Bulldozers), is great to have, also..... When you stop and realize that the bus transmission weighs more than an 8cyl car engine... ahh hell, a bus alternator can weigh more than a 4cyl engine.... It's heavy. Really important, is a place next to your home, on your own property, to actually work on the project. Having to drive to a storage facility (as I have to) makes any work a major project, since nothing can be left out from one day to the next.... any oil spills, etc., must be quickly and completely removed.....and a power supply, or water, is not always available. Expect to change suspension system components, radius arm bushings, engine and wheel seals, rear end (pinion) gears, and radiator fan gearbox seals.... Air brake components may need attention, but most commercial operators keep up with the "important" safety components... it's easy to let the other stuff go, as long as the bus can still make a few last bucks... Since I can no longer handle the heavy mechanical work, I'm at the mercy of those that I have to hire. It can get expensive; Damned expensive. Keep in mind, that the average bus can sit 6" off the ground, when the air is depleted. You don't want to be under the bus without it being blocked properly. Building ramps is a good idea, for allowing you to do work on components that don't require the wheels to be off. Think of owning and maintaining a bulldozer... except the bus has no frame, like the dozer... so lifting can be problematic. As far as getting stuck aside the road? Buy a decent insurance policy that covers diesel RVs. The guys here will tell you their favorite one.. Know where the tow-hooks are, and the jack points. You'll have to make sure anyone that tows or lifts it, uses what's designed to be used. Body-wise? You'll have to learn how your bus is constructed, to know where you can put a hole, or seal one up. I looked at a bus conversion for sale, where the guy had totally enclosed the dash. Egads. How do you repair the defroster? I asked.... He said it might be a problem.... On another MCI partial conversion, the guy totally sealed the interior access ports for the transmission and engine. Nice. Not too big of a problem, but inconvenient at the least.. Oh yeah..... most of the older buses have had many, many hands into them. And like any company that's trying to squeeze the last cash drip out of a tool, modifications and improvisions can be plentiful. Wiring changes, transmission swaps, engine swaps, all done without noting what was left out of the "change". It's just another thing to consider, if you're flying blind. It's a little easier to work on a rig, if you know what's right; how it should be... It's quite another thing, to not know right from wrong, and be totally confused... because what's in front of you looks OK, but it isn't working right, and no manual indicates what you're looking at, is what you should be seeing... (yeah, been there; done that). Buy the bus. Get ALL the manuals for it. Get all the tools required. Be prepared for the worst; look forward to the best...... And say goodbye to your bank account while it's still there. Cheers!! | ||
| Roy M Strickland (Rstrick182)
Registered Member Username: Rstrick182 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.144.232.133 Rating: N/A |
"And say goodbye to your bank account while it's still there." LOL, or in my case.... whats left of it. :-) | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 297 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.21 Rating: N/A |
I don't think a bus will faze you after the Baron. One engine OH on the Baron will cover most expenses on a bus. After three airplanes and a dozen antique cars and big trucks the bus has had no surprises except that I had no experience with the DD. I didn't talk to one busnut in person before I bought my 4104 but I spent hours and hours on the forums, reading ads from everywhere and looking at countless buses. I did all the inspecting on my own and in the end I made a bunch of mistakes but got such a good price on the bus that I'm not hurting yet. My biggest problem was I had never owned an RV of any kind and didn't really understand the innerworkings of a motorhome-I'm learning fast! I had to replace a bunch of wornout parts, none major, just a lot of work. In the process I learned a lot about the bus so I'm not intimidated too much by breakdowns. Our first trip, except for the 800 mi getting it home, was 6200 miles. I had to replace the driveshaft and air governor on the trip, but it all worked out well. The next trip was 10,300 mi and had not one problem except the igniter module on the refrigerator. The bus is a '54. So, go for it. |