| Author | Message | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 125 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
I am needing some insight on forming a concrete drive. I want to be able to park the bus on it for extended period of time. Please share any info from what you have done and how thick, how long, etc. Thanks | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 703 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Can you give us the soil conditions? | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Swamp.... Tidal marsh is all we have to build on here in South Mississippi. The lot we are trying to buy is only one of the few that you can actually build on the ground here and not on stilts. I am going to have to have dirt hauled in to raise some wet spots. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 704 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Excavate 10" - fill 6" with compacted crushed rock - 6" of fibered 3000 PSI concrete (6 bag mix if your doing it yourself) - I'd run some rebar along the track of the wheels - cut expansion joints every ten feet - This will leave your finished slab about 2" above grade - you may want more so alter accordingly - HTH | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 464 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.201.9.191 Rating: N/A |
Airless on the property we just bought the guy had over a 100 yds of concrete poured and finished. We checked it and it is 6 inches thick with wire mesh and rebarb thru-out. He and my contractor that is building my workshop says it will hold many busses with no problem! It also has been cut for expansion about every 10-15 feet. It's not done uniform so it's hard to say! Hope this helps! Ace | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 659 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
know you have already thought of it,but make sure it's leval,that way shower drains,....a leval WORKS...( doesn't if the bus isn't leval ) also,the more steel you can put in it the better...a grid on top of that gravel,one in the middle of the concrete & a grid a few inches below the surface and be sure you let it cure AT LEAST 28 days before you put the bus on it | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
What I am wanting to do is find the best/cheapest means in which to park the bus on land that is nothing but a tidal marsh. The neighbors claimed that they previous owner parked his tractor without trailer on the front yard. I honestly can not see how. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 705 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Airless if you want the best/cheapest - I need more info to be of help. Scrape and remove any organic material from the location you want to park it on - now dig a hole and tell me what soil is below it for a depth of 18" - is there any water? Are you going to mix your concrete on site or have it delivered? - If delivered call and get the minimum load that can be delivered w/o surcharge. How much does your coach weigh? How big of a pad do you desire? Will it be a 'straight shot' to the pad? Are you willing do deal with some cracking? I have had to make some assumptions (ie 1000 psf soil) that may not be true - so more info helps (Message edited by niles500 on February 11, 2007) | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Niles If I go 18 inches we can probably call it a well. The idea was to probably have the concrete delivered. They are 95.00 per yard with the fiber. I assume the coach is fairly heavy at probably 28k but never weighed it. The pad I am shooting for is large enough to park the bus on. I have to places I could put the pad One is a straight shot and would be the easiest to get into . The other is off to the left in the front yard area. The entry way is across a drainage/mosquito breeding area. As long as the bus remains above ground and is able to be moved without sinking in any weather I am a happy camper. I may have to have dirt hauled in and compacted prior to putting a level of roadbase in before the concrete. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.88 Rating: N/A |
"What I am wanting to do is find the best/cheapest means in which to park the bus on land that is nothing but a tidal marsh. " At the risk of sounding stupid.....How about railroad ties for el'cheapo' ? http://www.buysellcommunity.com/sale/UKPBVNOA/ Or "google" for more! Two rows length-wise (end-to-end; 50' long), with ties on top to make a roadway. Cheaper than Ceeeement, special dirt, stone, and rebar... | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Thanks John I have thought about the railroad ties. Not bothered doing the math yet since I did not know how wide they were or how long. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1042 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.234 Rating: N/A |
In a similar vein as John's idea is cutting a groove in the soil about one foot deeper than the main slab and two feet wide for each side of the bus. You can really boost the load that the slab will hold if you have grade beams under the tires. This will work pretty well if you are only looking at a slab of 12 foot in width. One thing about John's idea; wood is a lot lighter than concrete and railroad ties are treated. I kind of wonder how hard it would be to scare up what you would need, though. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.92.138 Rating: N/A |
We are building a house and a bus barn on the Texas coast and using a plastic mat because the rock just sinks and the mat makes the load equal over the intire 40x60 slab and driveway for the bus, check with some contractor suppy stores they have several different products mine cost 2.35 a square yard but saved alot over the cost of rock and under cutting of the pad and drive way.they use this stuff on highway I10 | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 706 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Airless - there is a method to my madness - I'll explain The water table isn't necessarily a problem - my prior design was for a true swamp which would be hydric soils (muck) - I kinda doubt that your uplands are such - more than likely you have sandy (hopefully) soils of which there are many profiles - sandy soils without too much organics actually increase their compressive strength with moisture being present - If the sand is present you could get by with an 8'x30' slab (or whatever your wheelbasw is) you can go with a 4" slab but I would still suggest a 16" to 20" bell footer on both sides 6" to 8" deep with at least one row of rebar set 3" from the bottom of the footer to carry the load of the wheels - here are some concrete dimensions - 240 sq ft. slab 4" thick is 3 yards of concrete a six inch slab same size is 4.5 yards the extra concrete for the bell footer would be less than 1/2 yard the reason I suggested calling the supplier is that (at least in Fla) concrete is so hard to get that the suppliers usually charge an exhorbitant amount for a short load - the amount can be so much that you might as well size the slab for their minimum load because your probably gonna pay for it anyway - BTW - 1 yard of concrete = approximately 81 sq ft. for 4" slab and 54 sq ft. for a 6" slab HTH P.S. There are many cheaper solutions you could use subject to availabilty such as hardpan, crushed lime rock, shell or if they're tearing up any concrete or asphalt roads or bridges in your area they should have plenty of remilled products for very little $$$$- FWIW | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Niles... And all.. The problem is like I stated regarding the wetness. Anyone travel I10 in Louisiana knows how crappy the road is there built in the same kind of conditions. | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Registered Member Username: Kristinsgrandpa Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2003 Posted From: 64.24.211.137 Rating: N/A |
Airless, your base is everything. You can get by with 2" of concrete IF your base is good enough, (and you remove the topsoil). As a matter of fact you don't even need the concrete if you have a good enough base. My coach is sitting on 4" of gravel and I've had no problems,(3 years, no concrete) but I removed the topsoil and it is hardpacked clay underneath the gravel. Your base is everything. From your description of the soil, I'd say what Niles told you is about right. I would put in at least 2 layers of roadmesh, it works great on thousands of roads and bridges, rebar would be better. Instead of hauling in soil, try to get some gravel/slag, something with stone in it for a base. Ed. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 660 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
railroad ties are9"x9"x8',talking about a 16' wide pad& for a pad 16'x30' you would need 80 ties & a pad 16'x40' would be 108 ties,@5.00 ea.=540.00... not bad really | ||
| Bobofthenorth (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member Username: Bobofthenorth Post Number: 147 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 142.165.58.8 Rating: N/A |
The right way is to dig down to something solid, fill with clay, top with rock/gravel & put the concrete on top of all that. Sometimes that just isn't possible or practical. One thing that works if you can find the right material is pit run gravel with about 30% clay content and big bones. What you are looking for is the stuff that isn't really good enough to sell as gravel because it has too much clay and too big of rocks in it. The sloppier the place where you are putting it then the bigger rock you should have. We filled our site at the lake with what I call 8" minus (stuff that would fall through an 8" square screen). Then we topped that with pea gravel. The boulders keep it from sinking into the swamp but you need something on top of them to smooth everything out. You could then pour concrete or just park on the gravel. You'll have to spend some time looking until you find someone who understands what you are looking for but, when you do, it shouldn't cost a bunch. If you try to put small rock (gravel) on sloppy footing it just keeps getting churned into the muck and disappears. The big bones carry up and give you something to build on. The clay is important because it binds the whole mess together and spreads the load over a wider area. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 707 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Airless - please don't worry about the ground water and moisture - as long as there are no expansive soils present (which I doubt is the case along MS coast) - the presence of sandy soil is more important - I have built roads to FDOT standards where SGW elevation and the wet detention ditch elevation were within 1 foot of the finished road elevation during the wet season by using soil cements as a sub-base - FWIW | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Registered Member Username: Garylee Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.13 Rating: N/A |
Airless, What Bobofthenorth and othes have said is all good info. Considering you are in very swampy soil you have to decide if you should dig down about 18" and fill with gravel / rubble & clay like bob has suggested but at the same time see if the water table weeps into your trench. A good base for your concrete is best, make the concrete level for your rig to begin with and using 3/16" screening in addition to 1/2" rebar will help. This stuff can be bought at a metal salvage yard for a lot less than you will pay at HD or lowes. I am including photos of what I did, I did not and have not ever poured 6 inch. of concrete because of cost but also I always rebar it also. I would of loved to had a full pad but cost was an issue, more parts for the bus!! In your circumstance you may have to have a back hoe come in and in a matter of an hour or more dig your trench, fill with gravel as mentioned above and rent a tamper machine to pack this surface down and let set a few days then pour your concrete. wet your rubble or gravel down somewhat as you tamp it down, it is worth the time to rent a backhoe / operator and power tamper in the long run. Try to get someone to assist you in working concrete, I didn't have this option as usual. 4 yards of concrete delivered at one time and working it all alone is a real --tch!! good luck.    | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.197.123.23 Rating: N/A |
Hi airless, Another alternitive to your gravel base could be recycled concrete. Here in N.J. it's about 1/2 the cost of 3/4 trap rock. It also comes in different refinings and it tightenes up the ground way better then rock. Good Luck Nick- | ||
| Prather Ellsberry (Prather)
Registered Member Username: Prather Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 207.69.140.22 Rating: N/A |
On the railroad ties idea, what would the cresote or whatever they are treated with do to the rubber in the tires? Prather | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 664 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
look at those pictures...the ol' mind just imagines, scoop out about a foot of dirt,about the rear 10 feet,between the two pads & WALLA...can scoot up under the bus to change oil,check trans. & rear end... | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.205.196.248 Rating: N/A |
Tacking a piece of plywood down where the tires will sit, should take care of any problem (if there is one?)... There's millions of tons of ties in the Northeast alone, ready to be taken away. They tore out the tracks, and sold the steel, but the ties are still sitting in piles. They just can't get rid of the things... The towns are complaining, but the RR companies have no-where to throw them. Can't burn 'em; Can't bury 'em all.. Uhhhh... of cuz, if the water gets high enough, you might end up with a "raft-bus"... Gee... maybe sail to Cuba or Haiti? (the possibilities are endless, airless!) | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Lets not talk about water getting high down here. EVER......You guys are wonderful btw and you provide so many great ways of thinking about things. | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
Boy, we sure don't have deals like that on railroad ties around here. We still have tons of yard that needs to be terraced, and every time we've checked on railroad ties it was about as expensive to use them as to pour concrete. That, along with the fact that railroad ties do gradually rot, even the creosote ones, well, we've just always poured concrete. Looks like if you could use railroad ties, you could actually stack them in such a manner as to give a little height for the tires, leaving more room underneath in between them for a sort of a shallow pit. My concern would be on just how solid these ties were though. . . could be a bad deal if it turned out they were crumbly. If you do haul in dirt, just make sure you've got a good way to compact it, so that you don't have settling. It might be a good idea to take all of these ideas, make a spreadsheet, and get your true costs for all the materials and labor to do each one, and see what your bottom line was. Every time we did that, we ended up with concrete, but then again, that's prices in our area, on clay soils. Christy Hicks | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Registered Member Username: Garylee Post Number: 123 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.130 Rating: N/A |
Bob, You also forseen my future plans to make a short pit about 12-18" deep between the tire runs, make small forms and pour more concrete for sides and bottom to have a pit to do as you suggest. this is another project of coarse but will wait till early spring. I only will make the pit slightly slanted somewhat to the back end to let rain run off to the back end toward the fence and just long enought to get to the full length of the engine & Tranny. Gary | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 662 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.201.71.52 Rating: N/A |
Here's another Idea. Dig 2 trenches matching your wheel base and prepare base properly then pour 2 concrete walls that are about 2 feet above grade towards the rear then you have a way to get under your bus safely. pull in or back in according to what you need to work on. Use Niles advice for proper way of doing this | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Shoot that is a good idea Ron... Only problem is I have a 64 inch chest.... 24 inches would all me to get my head under there... | ||
| Art Gill (Sandcastle)
Registered Member Username: Sandcastle Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 208.11.184.64 Rating: N/A |
Airless are you back home? I'm not an engineer but I had an experience with geogrid. I have built several 500 ft radio towers on the coast of North Carolina and at one site that was accross the road from the sound, the Corp of Engineers determined that it was wetlands. You could drive on it if it was dry but if you broke through the crust you were stuck to your frame. We needed to build a road to the base of the tower and it was recommended to use geogrid. The geogrid is a fabric. They scraped the vegietation off the top, put in a layer of sand, rolled out the geogrid and put six inches of rock on top. The road has been in for eight years with no holes or problems. We have had cranes in as large as 310 tons, lifting rating, not actual weight but it was a big crane. It took three tractor trailer trucks to carry the counter weights. I suggest you research the geogrid, put rock in for several years and then put concret on top after you are sure the rock is stable. Art | ||
| steve gaines (Kysteve)
Registered Member Username: Kysteve Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.140.165.225 Rating: N/A |
Art, just the name "geogrid" says to me that its el exspensive grid???? Bet it would be cheeper to pour 20 inch thick 20 by 50 concrete pad????lol....just funin.....Steve | ||
| Art Gill (Sandcastle)
Registered Member Username: Sandcastle Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 208.11.184.64 Rating: N/A |
Steve, I don't remember the cost but it had to be reasonable because I'm cheap and it came out of my pocket. Art | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 67.85.229.237 Rating: N/A |
Remember this thread = http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/11130.html > It's been working great for me. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member Username: Sffess Post Number: 685 Registered: 1-2002 Posted From: 67.142.130.14 Rating: N/A |
Look for recyled concrete near you. (Ground up conctete from torn up sidewalks, buildings, etc) It will pack and hold more than just rock fill. I had wet land where I lived in Lakeland. That stuff was amazing, and cheaper than rock. You can park on it without the slab and poor the slab next year, really. I hope there is a source near you. It is not the same as concrete washings from the concrete truck. | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 465 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.200.59.243 Rating: N/A |
Gary LaBombard... Beware before you go into making your pit, you get all the legal information you can on building it safe for you and everyone exposed to it. Also, get it fully inspected by the city or someone that knows exactly what it is and what it is inteded use is. I hear it has become REALLY hard in some places to get a pit built due to insurance regulations. Your area may be different! This was for a commercial use and I can only imagine what they would say being on a residence! I would just hate to see you or anyone for that matter go thru all the work themselves to be told, cover it up! Ace | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Registered Member Username: Garylee Post Number: 124 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.130 Rating: N/A |
Ace, With all due respect perhaps you should concentrate on your new property and all the legalities of what you want to do with it. Gary | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
Now I have not started many threads here and do not wish to see one go astray. Please be nice to each other or go play in some other bus field. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 670 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
I rented a trencher years ago & dug two paralel trenches about 36" apart & poured it full of concrete,a few days later I dug out the middle dirt...been useing it for 25 years.. I did it for cars,can't get the bus close to it | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 466 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.200.59.243 Rating: N/A |
Well that just goes to show you the thanks you get for trying to alert someone of what may lie ahead! I wasn't at all trying to tell you what or how to do what you intend on doing. I was merely trying to alert you of how hard it has been recently for some others I know personally to do the same thing you intend to do! With that said... Do what you want and I hope you don't get burnt, but with your attitude, you deserve everything handed to you! Ace | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Registered Member Username: Garylee Post Number: 125 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.130 Rating: N/A |
Airless, You are right, I apologize for my venting on your thread post, please excuse my ignorant outburst. Gary | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 663 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.174.93.102 Rating: N/A |
Airless, just modify the dimensions so you can fit under it. You only need to be under the last 12 ft or so for anything and not much at all up front. I think it would be probably easier than a slab and more versatile. You could scrape away more dirt later if you need more height. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member Username: Sffess Post Number: 686 Registered: 1-2002 Posted From: 67.142.130.11 Rating: N/A |
Uh, Ron, he can't excavate below his concrete later. There is no rock down there on the Gulf like there is up here in Tennessee. The mud would simply ooze in over ten years and move the concrete. Airless, you could dig a wide trench for the tires and then deepen it on the inside with a narrow trench to form a wall to hold back the soil. As long as you don't go too deep and plan on working on your back I would think you would be safe. You will probably end up with a thin concrete floor of the pit so you can move around and keep it clean. How will you keep the concrete driveway tracks from moving under the weight of the bus over the years. Will you need a smalliron reinforced poured concrete cross beam or two at the top front and middle, maybe a steel I beam across the back, (from a scrap yard)? I don't know, but I suspect someone on this board can help. Just let the local government think that you are building a really strong driveway and dig it out for a pit later. I doubt you will have any trouble with the building inspector, but please build it safe for shifting soil. Most of the concrete projects we build as individuals can float on mud. You will be building something that could twist over sideways after a tropical storm or el nino. Most of the country is not like your soil, so it is hard for the rest of us to envision your problem. Ace has a point about codes. If you wait long enough to build your parking strips or pad, when you want to finally do it the code may not allow it. That is what is happening in Florida. | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.240.75.188 Rating: N/A |
I talked to a guy down here changing out the drains that go under driveways, he advised me that they change the drains out every year because they get so filled so fast with muck. This land down here is kind of weird. You can see a place that has just some small amount of standing water on it but you can lose a excavator on the little puddle. There is no bottom to the land once you start sinking it just keeps going and going. Up the road they are clearing land to build 12 houses in the process they got a bulldozer stuck. They worked for three days getting it out. The dozer had sank to where the driver sits. When they started with the dozer there was no water on the land. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 80 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Airless When I did my barnfloor, I found some one and a halve inch thick rebar in a scrapyard at an excellent price. Only good, if you are doing concrete. Joe. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 664 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.174.79.227 Rating: N/A |
I didn't mean for him to dig even close to the bottom. If he could build it like a walk in basement that was what I envisioned if his land slopes it would be easy (I would think) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.89 Rating: N/A |
Kinda' makes those five buck RR ties look better, ehh? http://www.buysellcommunity.com/sale/UKPBVNOA/ Build a boardwalk..... errr.... "buswalk"... | ||
| Ricky D. West (Gg04)
Registered Member Username: Gg04 Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 68.159.205.208 Rating: N/A |
airless could not get your email to work...tell me where you are on the coast and will give you cheapest...I'm the 04 that was at the flea mkt when we were home...was the last rv park we built in Ms..part of my building deal was we always got to stay for free for life... | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Registered Member Username: Airless_in_mississippi Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.3.116.108 Rating: N/A |
d_h remove @ hotmail.com |