| Author | Message | ||
| Jeff Cheek (Jeffsmagicbus)
Registered Member Username: Jeffsmagicbus Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.52.231.247 Rating: N/A |
Hello Everybody!  Can Anyone Please Explain To Me How A Tranny Retarder Works As Compared To Normal Jakes? I'm Thinking It Works With The Torque Converter Somehow But Would Like To Know For Sure. Racheal Anne Came From Oklahoma Where Retarders Are Illegal & They Had Installed An L Bracket In Front Of The Lever That I'm Pretty Sure Actuates It. I Know The Principle Behind Their Use & Know That They Should NEVER Be Relied Upon As They Can Fail At Anytime Or Just Not Work When You Need It Too. I'm Also Aware That You Can't Be Going Faster Than You Can Safely Stop With The Primary Brakes. They Are To Be Used In Conjunction With The Main System To Help Reduce Wear & Tear On The Brake Linings etc. Would You Suggest Leaving Well Enough Alone Or Would You Remove The Bracket To See If It Even Still Works? Thanks Everybody & Take Care! | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
I have never heard of retardes being illegal but I have heard of jakes use being illegal in places. | ||
| Jeff Cheek (Jeffsmagicbus)
Registered Member Username: Jeffsmagicbus Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.52.231.247 Rating: N/A |
Hello! I'm Pretty Sure Jakes Are A No Go In OK & Maybe They Thought They Are The Same Thing. Maybe Since It Was Used In The Public School System In Tulsa That Was The Reason They Made It Where You Couldn't Activate It. I Guess I'll Call My DMV Before I Go To The Trouble Of Making It Operable Again. Douglas, You Sure Have A Nice Crusader & The Old GM Is A Real Beauty Too! I Still Miss My '54 But Not The Crash Box Tranny! | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.226.200 Rating: N/A |
Transmission retarders in buses usually work in conjunction with the brakes. Unlike Jakes, which act on the exhaust valves (ergo the noise) trans retarders are silent. The HT Allison has the retarder mounted in the tailshaft and it adds resistance to the output shaft when activated. You are correct that it is a brake saving device. Often found on transit buses. Transmission retarders work fine, but they'll heat up the transmission fluid if overused. I don't know about the western mountains, but around here, Jakes and retarders are optional items. A bus doesn't build the momentum, say compared to an 80K lbs truck, on downhills. They would if the bus was loaded to near the GVW, but buses generally are nowhere near max weight. Jakes would be the most desirable sort of adjunct braking system...but retarders work well. If you have an Allison, the retarder is a large finned housing just in front of the driveshaft flange. If that isn't there...?? May have some other sort of retarder. What bus do you have? What transmission? As Tekebird states, never heard of trans retarders being illegal. Jakes are in some cities because of the noise. Jakes can be downright obnoxious with open pipes. Jakes on two strokes in a bus with a proper muffler aren't noisy. They are both dependable. Vehicles that have'em should use'em...on dry roads...shut them off on wet or slick roads. You got me on the "L" bracket. Remove it and see what happens. Your bus may have an electric retarder, or Jakes? Jakes use distinctive valve covers on DDs. Take a pix of your transmission DS end, post it, and we'll verify your retarder or lack thereof. I've got an Allison HT748R that has a trans retarder and it stays on all the time..works great. Any overheat will lock out high gears and allow the trans to cool down. So says the DDEC DX guide! HTH, JR | ||
| James Stacy (Jimstacy)
Registered Member Username: Jimstacy Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 70.254.124.34 Rating: N/A |
Probably had drivers over using retarder and overheating trans fluid. Very easy to do in traffic. Cheapest solution: block the engage lever. | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
can't tell what Jeff Has from his photo. My Retarder is on a floor mounted switch and is not related to the brakes at all | ||
| Jeff Cheek (Jeffsmagicbus)
Registered Member Username: Jeffsmagicbus Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.138.53.83 Rating: N/A |
Hey Everybody! Thanks for the excellent information! I'm just going by what the PO said about the retarder being illegal in Oklahoma. There is a Retarder light in the idiot light cluster & I'm sure the system is intact. The valve covers look plain to me too. I don't know if all of the Allison's had oil lines going to the engine for cooling purposes or not but this one does. I've been told that was an option but don't know for sure. I have a 1975 TMC MC-8 Crusader. It has an 8V-71 & The 4-Speed Auto. It Has Power Steering, Factory A/C & Heat Too! It was built in Roswell, New Mexico & was a Hound based out of Phoenix in it's previous life. The Tulsa school system restored it to better than new condition inside & out with new everything in 1999-2000. They put windshields in it, new caps, totally rebuilt the engine & tranny, suspension, brakes, Goodyears, etc.! They didn't dick around with that tax money! It was 1:30 in the morning when I got there in my V-12 Jag trade & I thought the hubodometer said 472,86?...I almost fainted when I realized it was 47,286 miles! The guy I got it from off eBay said it was his dads but he had an illness & died before he ever got to even ride on it.  It also had to sit outside in limbo until I found it as it was 6" too tall to fit in Dude's warehouse. They started it once a month & drove it around a little every now & then. The clear coat puned out but I'm over that already. It came with 2 spare engine blocks & all the bays full of everything imaginable! I have 2 radiators in their factory crates & enough new parts to almost build another engine! It runs like a scalded dog & completely annihilated ANY semi truck that I came up on! The speedo only goes to 85 & it was buried. I'd say it was doing about 90 even with all the bays full of parts. Not that I condone speeding but "You Have To Go With The Flow"! It Ain't A Race If They're A Half Mile Behind You Is It? Those Good Buddies were wound out sounding like they were going to blow their engines up as I casually just strolled on by...Hi,Hi,Hi! Screaming Jimmy Rides Again! I'll try that retarder out next time I drive it but I'm working on the conversion & it won't be going anywhere too soon. I'll keep you posted. Thanks Again & Take Care (Message edited by jeffsmagicbus on February 18, 2007) (Message edited by jeffsmagicbus on February 18, 2007) | ||
| Jeff Cheek (Jeffsmagicbus)
Registered Member Username: Jeffsmagicbus Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.138.53.83 Rating: N/A |
I Have Some "Before" Pics Of My 1975 TMC MC-8 Crusader, As I First Saw It in Tulsa, On My Web Site At: www.drycreekcustoms.com. Just scroll down the page a little & you'll see the link to Racheal Anne on the left. Here's the link: http://drycreekcustoms.com/dry_creek_custom_0000b8.htm Also check out my first Motor Coach, The San Antonio Rose, under the RV link! I'm on my way outside now to work on the conversion some more... I'm going with a 70's theme as I already have most of the furniture Hi,Hi,Hi! | ||
| Jeff Cheek (Jeffsmagicbus)
Registered Member Username: Jeffsmagicbus Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.138.53.83 Rating: N/A |
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| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 91 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.154 Rating: N/A |
The cop didn't know the difference between Jakes and a retarder. Probably doesn't know the difference between his ___ and a hole in the ground either! Jakes are noisy, which is why they are prohibited in some places. Retarders are silent. Retarders come in two types, electrical and hydraulic. Hydraulics are bolted on the back of Allisons, and do their job by converting motion into heat. Said heat must be dissipated to the air or the trans fluid will overheat. Trannys are cooled by oil-to-air, or oil-to-water coolers. Yours is oil-to-water, as the trans oil and the engine oil are cooled by a "dual plate" oil cooler. Electric retarders, made by Telma, and others, are around also, and do the same thing electrically. Lever operated retarders give you the option of varying the amount of braking force you want. There are some very sophisticated electronic retarders out now which give electric retarding when the driver starts to step on the brake pedal. In the first little travel of the pedal, no friction braking occurs, and as more pedal pressure is applied, full retarding and friction braking occurs. Whew! George | ||
| Jeff Cheek (Jeffsmagicbus)
Registered Member Username: Jeffsmagicbus Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.137.115.222 Rating: N/A |
Hello George, It was very nice of you to take the time to explain to me the operation of the jake brake & the retarders. I didn't know there even was an electric retarder in exsistence so I learned something already! I was wondering why that lever was connected to a shaft & had that much movement in it & I now know that it is variable. You learn something new every day... I'll post some more photos soon of the start of the conversion. The drive train is "Ready For Freddy" & I would not hesitate to hop in it right now & go to anywhere in North America! I've already driven it a thousand miles with only a fuel delivery issue as the filters were clogged up!(Ever Drove Down The Side Of The Interstate In The Middle Of Oklahoma At 1:30am At 10-20 Miles An Hour?) It needs an oil change before I go anywhere but it is good to go. My neighbors have complained to the homeowners association that my beloved motor coach is "Unattractive" to which I replied: "Then Don't Look At It"! It's still a $175,000 Stainless Steel Motor Coach To Me! I spent 2 days completely hand washing it when I first got it & of course it needs it again! Take Care (Message edited by Jeffsmagicbus on February 21, 2007) | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1840 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.87.29 Rating: N/A |
(Message edited by drivingmisslazy on February 20, 2007) |