| Author | Message | ||
| george bruton (Tazman632000)
Registered Member Username: Tazman632000 Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.25.56.108 Rating: N/A |
just purchased a 4106-273 bob baldwins old bus and have some questions i have been reading the threads about the brake conversion to dd3s or the spring brakes. what is the problem with the original system? ill be taking my family around so i want the safest system. also after driving it home i found a crack in the aluminum right behind the engine closer to the old ac compressor, ive heard the first 4106s have a bulkhead problem i thought being number 273 maybe it problem was resolved. can someone tell were the problem exsit and the fix. this is a great forum!! thanks | ||
| J.L.Vickers (Roadrunnertex)
Registered Member Username: Roadrunnertex Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.1.64.165 Rating: N/A |
PD4106-273 from GMC to Indianapolis & Southeastern Trailways,Inc. You can stop drill the end of the crack so it wont crack anymore and plate over the area with 3/16th inch alum. plate using 1/4" bolts. The old PD4106's have ran for years with the brakes from the factory if it works don't mess with it. | ||
| Harmer (Dave_4104_in_victoria)
Registered Member Username: Dave_4104_in_victoria Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: N/A |
As far as cracks in bell housing if that is what you are referring to, yes they happen. My brother in law owns a 4106. We initially checked for the cracked bulkhead, but it did not appear to have deficiencies in that area. Although we did find a crack about 7" to 9" long on top of the bell housing behind the compressor. We cleaned it up and stainless steel brushed it clean. I then ran a small bead with the aluminum wire feed. We have checked periodically to ensure that it has not continued to crack, and to date it has not. We still have to do a proper repair when we can fit it in. This will included v'ing out the whole crack with an aluminum only grinding disc, and then stainless brushing the whole area to be welded and then run a a bead or two with the aluminum spool gun. Nice to have some of the toys  . Hope this helps Dave out | ||
| Harmer (Dave_4104_in_victoria)
Registered Member Username: Dave_4104_in_victoria Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: N/A |
Oh yes George. as for your brakes, if they are the original service pots on the rear. If they work, great, but for me on my 4104, i replaced them with spring brakes. My main reason was if you have no air you have no bark brakes or emergency brakes. This can make for a startling relevation at say 0400 in the morning when the bus brakes relese due to losing air in the system and you wake to the coach rolling off of your ramps or wherever and doh you forgot to put your wheel chocks under... The brother in law still has the original service pots on his. We will be changing it when convenient also to spring brakes. Dave out | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 432 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.126.56 Rating: N/A |
If 4106 have same clearance as 4905 between brake mounting brackets and bulkhead, Maxi's wont fit, as the shortest model is still about 1 1/2 inch too long to fit. They will fit nicely on a 4104 and as they are very cheap, every 4104 should have them or install them. | ||
| george bruton (Tazman632000)
Registered Member Username: Tazman632000 Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.25.56.108 Rating: N/A |
what are the part number of some spring brake canisters that will work on the 4106? and how hard of a job are they to change? | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1053 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.64.138 Rating: N/A |
George, the pot brackets have to be shortened to make room for the spring pots. The DD3s will fit the stock brackets. I understand that if the brackets are shortened, that they should leave enough room to be able to remove the pots without disassembling the pots. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 306 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 206.40.238.60 Rating: N/A |
Dave_4104_in_victoria, The brake you were using is not a parking brake, it is an emergency brake. The original 4104 parking brake is mechanical and is operated by a long lever coming out of the floor on the left side of the driver. The air emergency brake is meant to be used to stop the bus in an emergency only, not for parking. The Operating Manual specifically says it is not to be used for parking and you found out first-hand the reason it isn't!! | ||
| Jim Wilke (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 12.46.52.74 Rating: N/A |
I do not underestand why I hear so many people "bashing" DD3 brakes. I read that they won't hold with no air, I read also that you can substitute spring brake units for them. If the DD3 brake system IS IN PROPER WORKING ORDER, they are equal to or better than spring brakes. A bus designed for DD3 brakes has separate brake air reservoirs & piping systems for forward & rear brakes, like a modern car. In addition, should one reservoir lose air, the system automatically shuttles to the one with more air, while screaming a warning buzzer. The "Park/Emergency" brake will indeed apply if the air pressure drops to about 45 lbs just as spring brakes do. DD3 brakes use a different chamber/diaphragm for "Park/Emergency" than the regular service brake (That's why there are 3 hoses instead of 2). DD3 brakes require full system air pressure to release, once the "Park/Emergency" brake is applied. If the air is lost while the park brake is applied, it will NOT release (assuming it is in correct working order). "Park" is ensured by a system of spring loaded locks that keep the brake actuating rod from retracting until full air pressure is on hand, the operator pushes the park release button, AND steps on the brake pedal for about 5 seconds to release these lock mechanisms. As for replacing DD3 brake units with spring brake units, you will need to re-engineer the entire brake system, from the treddle valve, the lines, tanks and the mounting brackets. I can't imagine thinking that we are more knowledgeable than the teams of engineers who designed these brake systems to be as fail safe as possible. And in our lawsuit happy world, what would be the result if this reengineered system fails? Even if the failure isn't in the reengineered part, what wil be your insurance company's response should they discover you've modified the brakes on a 14 ton vehicle? They will run from you as fast as the claim denials can be written. If we spend 1/3 of the time we would spend changing the system on inspection, overhaul & maintenance, we'd be light years ahead. Jim-Bob | ||
| george bruton (Tazman632000)
Registered Member Username: Tazman632000 Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.25.56.108 Rating: N/A |
the brakes on my bus are the original single chamber system so no air =no stop | ||
| Harmer (Dave_4104_in_victoria)
Registered Member Username: Dave_4104_in_victoria Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Gus, When I purchased my coach originally, the Park brake as you refer to was not working and was partially removed. Since installing the spring brakes, I have taken almost all of the hardware off under drivers area and in engine compartment. The only thing left is the actual drum. I would agree with that you should use that brake if you have it and are parking with the air also. My intent was always to use wheel chocks, alas sometimes i fergat to place them after setting up on ramp or ramps. That is why i would roll off ramps on occasion. Its all mute now because we upgraded. Thanks | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.231.131.110 Rating: N/A |
Dave, Fortunately the mechanical brake, including the drum, was removed by the PO and spring brakes installed. The spring brake is mechanical and is all you will ever need as long as the brakes are properly adjusted. Of course, it never hurts to use chocks and I probably should but I don't. I, too, removed all that extra hardware under the floor. It is worthwhile removing the drum, it is amazing at all the extra working space with it removed and it probably takes some wear off the driveshaft. However, I don't think it is worth removing the driveshaft just to remove the drum. If you closely read your maint manual on removing the DS you will see what I mean. When I had my driveshaft rebuilt while on the road I had to guide the mechanic through the proper procedure, he tried to do it the reverse of the manual and was getting nowhere. While I'm on that subject. My driveshaft splines were so badly worn the mechanic said he didn't see how it held together. He ran a big truck garage and said he had never seen one so badly worn. I noticed it clicking and jerking while driving slowly into an RV park. It wasn't noticable on the road. I thought it was the U-joints but it was the slip joint splines. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.254.45.168 Rating: N/A |
For whatever reason the PO of my 4106 put spring brakes on and left the mechanical brake intact and working. I guess it is an added measure of safety? Why does everyone remove it after the brake mod? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 435 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.126.56 Rating: N/A |
A lot of times it is removed after the installation of spring or dd3 brake units the first or second time the driveshaft needs removed for u-joints or clutch etc. as it is in the way and a PITA to remove to do the other work. Also it is heavy with all the parts and linkage.Also the hand lever is somewhat in the way. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1057 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.64.138 Rating: N/A |
I got some good use out of ours every now and then. Particularly if I was pulling it over a pit or wanted to adjust the brakes. However, there was some vibration in the rear, and we discovered that the drum had been turned off center. We took it off, and haven't gotten around to replacing it, yet. The parking brake hasn't gotten in the way, so far. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Tony Gojenola (Akbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Akbusnut Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 24.237.217.192 Rating: N/A |
I'm sure no two people do it the same way, or for the same reasons. But I put spring brakes on my 4106 while the cradle was out, the engine was getting a rebuild, and the tranny being changed out to a V-730. I pulled all of the shift rods, the clutch mechanism, clutch rod, all the parking brake components and the rod, plus all of the attendant levers at the rear bulkhead. I could see no further use for any of them, and I used the tubes that the rods all came out of to snake through a bunch of new wiring and a few 3/8 DOT air lines for the leveling system and the spring brake. When it came time to replace the speedometer and add a tach, the wires were there. When I added a tranny temp gage - the wires were there, and there were still plenty of wires to accomodate the bennet air shifter and its indicators. Neither do I regret any of it nor miss that old parking brake lever. tg | ||
| Harmer (Dave_4104_in_victoria)
Registered Member Username: Dave_4104_in_victoria Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: N/A |
Hey Gus good idea for the tubes. It would be a little tidier running extra airlines and misc items through there rather than underneath. I am still yet to install the air levelling system, as I am still yet to install the larger braking system off of an old transit. Larger drums, shoes, etc. I thought the shoes were big on the 04 until you put a set of fishbowl gear up beside it. Cheers Dave out | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 308 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.28 Rating: N/A |
Dave, The tube uses are Tony's idea, not mine. If you change over to larger brakes make sure there is enough space for spring brake chambers. It is a tight squeeze as is with original brakes and the smallest size spring brake chamber. | ||
| Harmer (Dave_4104_in_victoria)
Registered Member Username: Dave_4104_in_victoria Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.64.223.203 Rating: N/A |
thanks Gus, my mistake you are right. Thanks Tony |