| Author | Message | ||
| Glenn Vining (Glennvin)
Registered Member Username: Glennvin Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 Posted From: 67.140.238.2 Rating: N/A |
This happened this morning. So far the media is reporting two fatalities. http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/hall/newfullstory.asp?ID=112167 This link has pictures. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/11151088/detail.html Glenn Tallulah Falls, GA. | ||
| Mark & Michele Blake (Busnut_pd4106)
Registered Member Username: Busnut_pd4106 Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.213.16.189 Rating: N/A |
If you use Googleearth here are the latitude and longitude of the crash scene 33°48'10.53"N 84°24'28.76"W. When you zoom in and look closely at the scene you will notice the HOV lane and the HOV exit the bus driver apparently mistook as part of the HOV lane. I can only guess that as the driver came to the end of the exit ramp at 60+ MPG and realizing he had no where to go he tried to avoid the wall straight ahead by making a quick right turn, flipping the bus and sending it through the guard rail landing on the interstate below . I never used this exit but was told it is a confusing area. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 752 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
sounds like a stupid road | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.57 Rating: N/A |
You ain't kidding Bob. I watched a segment on the news about the accident and were the exit ramp goes up you don't see the stop sign until it's almost to late. No rumble strips or anything. That's a dumb@#$ design! | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 452 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.126.56 Rating: N/A |
They'll quietly redesign this area after a couple years after this is forgotten about by most of us. | ||
| Mark & Michele Blake (Busnut_pd4106)
Registered Member Username: Busnut_pd4106 Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.34.233.5 Rating: N/A |
Very sad story. Based on experience never trust a left hand exit or entrance ramp. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
They should find the engineer that designed that intersection & hang him ALSO...they have 50 year old signs on long Island that do not make any sense...all vehicles over 12'7" must exit... & it exits you into the bronxs....NOT a place ya want to be...what they realy mean is over 12'7" WIDE...BUT...they don't tell you that .. I got in the bronks & people were climbing all over my truck & trying to break into the back at intersections | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 458 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
Bob, when that happens, you need to get out your Kentucky fly swatter.  | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 198.136.32.74 Rating: N/A |
I kinda questioned why he was running in the HOV lane anyway, especially in Atlanta. Tragic to say the least. Prayers out to the families and kids. I bet some traffic engineer loses his job over that design. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.151.82 Rating: N/A |
Buses are SUPPOSED to use HOV lanes. They are the ultimate HOV vehicle. But the Govt. has been compromising the Interstate highway system since the first time they designed a non cloverleaf type on/off ramp system to save money. How many times have you lined up to get on the Interstate only to find out you needed to be on the other side of the street. While this doesn't happen at high speed, the streets are so crowded it's nearly impossible to get from right to left across 3 lanes in a couple hundred feet! They have created the same havoc by having ANY left exits up on the "super slab". You don't expect exits on the left. These accidents that occur because of the non standard exits & on ramps are blamed on the motorists, not on the DOT. If the blame were placed on the design, DOT would quickly fix all of these bad designs as litigation would force them to. Sometimes you find left entrance ramps too. Not a very safe situation trying to keep your rig straight while figuring your "merge window" through your right side rear view mirror! Now add the stupid right side convex mirrors Detroit is installing where "Objects are closer than they appear". Plug in the uneducated, unthinking, rude (mostly young) car drivers who won't slow or change lanes to let you merge and often speed up to keep you out & you've got REAL FUN! I'm sorry if this post seems a little edgy, I think it's right on the money. I drove through Atlanta yesterday Northbound & luckily turned off 5 miles before the bus wreck scene. I encountered all of the above in my 1000 mile drive. Q: What posesses a young man in a subcompact car to try to insist on having the right of way by honking his tiny horn & cutting hard in front of a 15 ton bus so close I can't see his tail lights? A: "Stupidity is a resessive gene". Jim-Bob | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 198.136.32.74 Rating: N/A |
I guess that answers that. I didn't think about a passenger bus being HOV....duh on me! I like the slow lane myself. | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 674 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.174.93.98 Rating: N/A |
It was 4 in the morning and I would think they could use any lane as there is not that much traffic at that time. it is very confusing the way they are set up and a sad story. | ||
| Glenn Vining (Glennvin)
Registered Member Username: Glennvin Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2002 Posted From: 67.140.238.2 Rating: N/A |
A local news station reported something like 87 crashes over the last ten (10) years at this ramp. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/11169443/detail.html Glenn Tallulah Falls, Ga. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 95 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.29.27.169 Rating: N/A |
As I understand the rules, it takes 2 deaths to add a stop sign and 6-8 for a red light. Redesigning an off-ramp probably takes 20-25. Len | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 230 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.56 Rating: N/A |
"As I understand the rules, it takes 2 deaths to add a stop sign and 6-8 for a red light. Redesigning an off-ramp probably takes 20-25. " Or the spouse, child or immediate relative of a politician... | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 288 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.66 Rating: N/A |
Atta boy John, I believe you are on to something there. As for those who want to blame the engineer, Oh sure, take the easyway out, that way you won't have to think. But, if you were to stop & think, you may ponder a moment on some of the factors that influenced the design. I'll bet dollars to doughnut holes that money & bureaucracy dictated the design. Better signage would have made a huge difference in minimizing the confusion. But signs cost money & too many signs will render them less effective. So what to do except give it your best effort & make improvements as the opportunities present themselves. Knee jerk responses often create more problems. I have never liked the HOV lanes. Too easy for problems to arise. BUT they make great campain fodder aimed at the non-thinking masses, 'Look at what I did to encourage car pooling'. 'Look what I did to save the planet from excess exhaust gas'. 'Look at me & re-elect me (so I can keep my hand in the cookie jar)'. Drive right except to pass would ease a lot of traffic problems. I'd rather see more enforcement of the 'Slower Traffic Keep Right' rule. If everyone would just drive with respect for others they share the road with, we wouldn't need the HOV lanes. (Message edited by kyle4501 on March 05, 2007) | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 319 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.17 Rating: N/A |
"As for those who want to blame the engineer, Oh sure, take the easyway out, that way you won't have to think." It wouldn't take a genius to add some rumble strips and a sign (Stop Ahead "X" feet) with a flashing yellow light on top at the begining of the exit ramp. (Message edited by Happycampersrus on March 05, 2007) | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 759 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
It's the engineers fault...wake up | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.27.63.2 Rating: N/A |
he bob you have that number from that repair guy in victoria??? thanks dutch | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 761 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
I can't find him...he may be working offshore on diesel engines on drilling rigs will let you know | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 289 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
I never said the engineer was blameless. I said that there were lots of other things to consider. The problem won't get fixed unless the whole system is considered & the REAL causes fixed. If you like, continue to bash the engineers while leaving the system blameless. Meanwhile, nothing gets fixed. Do you really think executing an engineer would solve the provlem? It would be scary to live in your naive world. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 320 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.44 Rating: N/A |
Not to start a war, BUT the engineer is the stupid one here. He is the guy that has to know what he is doing along with the inspector that signs off approving it for use. It doesn't matter if you have 6 or 60 politicians or 5 former presidents saying you can only spend $3 to build the ramp. If you do, then the engineer or designer should say I can't do it the right way for that kinda money. If he is still stupid enough to build it that way, then yes the blame should rest on his shoulders and the inspector that approved it. Say for example if your wife was mayor. If your wife hired an engineer to build a swing set for a public park for "X" amount of money and 87 children had accidents (just as the ramp has), Would you blame your wife or the engineer?? I wouldn't sue your wife as she thought she was hiring someone that was supposed to know what the heck he's doing, but I damn sure would light up the designer or engineer. After all he is the one with the formal education and the engineering degree. Oh well, just my 2 cents | ||
| Leland Bradley (Lee_bradley)
Registered Member Username: Lee_bradley Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 140.178.68.117 Rating: N/A |
The engineer gets to design the structure so it doesn't fall down but odds are long that he didn't get to plan the project. Today's planning (public) is done by committee (please see R.A.Heinlein's definition) with input from anyone that can find any of the multitude of public meetings. When one group or another doesn't get their way, then the courts get in the middle of it. Then half the funding gets diverted to public art projects and you guys want to blame the engineer? | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 321 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.23 Rating: N/A |
"(please see R.A.Heinlein's definition)" The science fiction writer?? Did they ever get the US Navy to name a ship after him?? LOL. "Today's planning (public) is done by committee with input from anyone that can find any of the multitude of public meetings." There is a heck of a difference between planning (telling the engineers what they want or would like to see)and engineering (actually designing the damn thing so it don't get someone killed). "Then half the funding gets diverted to public art projects and you guys want to blame the engineer?" That's exactly my point, If the money ain't there to do the job correctly and the engineer still builds it and someone gets hurt or killed I know who I'm blaming. It won't be the guy who came to the planning meetings with his desires, It will be the guy who's name is at the bottom of the plans and the other one that signed off on it. Hey you guy's can blame bureaucracy or congress or George W, but I bet I know who is going to get the blame when the lawsuits start flying and they will especially after the NTSB reports are already condiming the design. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 290 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.66 Rating: N/A |
When you are given only bad choices to choose from, the result will be a bad one. How many of us are in a position to quit our job over a single project when you also feel you should stay & minimize the bad? You can't answer that if you haven't actually been in that position with a family depending on you. Assigning blame based on idealized conditions is fine for class room discussions, but this is the real world. Placing blame before you know the facts is irresponsible. Not to be overly crass, but how many have safely used that intersection because they were paying attention? Personally, I find it hard to believe the bus driver was paying sufficient attention. There must have been a distraction. . . But I'm not blaming the driver! Would the engineer be responsible for those distractions too? Such a sad loss all the way around. All I'm saying is, don't be in a rush to judgement. Investigate to learn the facts because there are already enough victims here. Blaming a faceless engineer might make some feel like they are doing something, & they are. They are hindering the real solution to the problem. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 291 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.66 Rating: N/A |
Dale, have you worked in engineering? You seem so sure of the engineers guilt & how the process works. . . | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 322 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.22 Rating: N/A |
I have had to "unengineer" so much stuff as an aircraft mechanic (military), auto mechanic, heavy equipment mechanic that it's not even funny. I'm sure you and everyone here has worked on something and wondered what the %&$# were they thinking when they done that. I do understand completely how this situation came to light. My Father was on city council for several years (1970's)in Jacksonville Fla. and I have talked to him about this accident in detail and have learned alot on how this ramp was probably done. To make the long story short, The highway planning commission wanted an exit ramp to connect to the overpass and took a request to the city engineer(if they have one)or a private firm to have the design worked out and put on paper. This is when they do their homework and TRY to design a functional and safe exit ramp while coming in under budget. Then it's built by those specs. All I'm saying is, this is when the engineering firm earns their money with a safe ramp or they look dumb with a poor design. The highway planning commission doesn't have much to do with the actual specific design they just know they want an exit ramp. "All I'm saying is, don't be in a rush to judgement. Investigate to learn the facts because there are already enough victims here." You are right, maybe I am being hasty in blaming the engineer of the ramp, but it just seems so simple to me to add some rumble strips or a sign with a light 75+ accidents ago (87 accidents reported in the past 10yrs). I just hope everyone learns from this accident. I know I have. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 292 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.66 Rating: N/A |
After completing tech college as an automechanic, I went to college to become a mechanical engineer so I could go to Detroit & show those dumbassed engineers how to do it right. Boy, reality sucks! I found out that money rules everything. A fat lot of good a great designed widget is if no one buys it. Then you are out of a job & the company is bankrupt. Hindsight re-engineering is easy. I have yet to find an accurate crystal ball to let me know how the machines I'm designing will be mis-used in the future. . . Some fools are so ingenious. Then there are those occasional brain farts by the end user. . . Let's not forget those looking to win the litigation lottery. . . If we aren't careful, ALL of the engineering will go overseas. Then who are you going to blame? Without engineering, you don't create wealth, you just transfer it around. It seems no one wants to accept responsibility for their own actions anymore. It's always someone elses fault . . . | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1199 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.112.181 Rating: N/A |
I'm going to jump in here and re-direct the dialog somewhat. I totally agree that this particular exit ramp/interchage is not well-designed, after having looked at it using Google Earth. Rest assured that after this accident, GADOT will be adding some serious signage for the end of the ramp, to reduce the risk of a reoccurance. Add to that the following: ~~ A driver who is unfamiliar with the area. ~~ Possibly driver fatigue, altho one news report said that the driver had only been behind the wheel for about an hour, having relieved another driving team. ~~ Time of day. Those of us who have spent many an hour on the road professionally quickly understand that the couple of hours before daybreak can be deadly - even if you've had lots of rest prior to your shift. The news report indicated that the relief driver & his spouse had eight hours off prior to taking over, but didn't know how much of that was actually rest. (Note: It's a common practice in the charter bus industry on long runs, where the customer doesn't want to add the cost of motels into the price of the trip, to send drivers on ahead early to make reliefs. Much less expensive for the customer to put one or two drivers up in a motel enroute than the whole group. Usually done at around 500 mile intervals, which equates to roughly 10 hrs driving time, the DOT maximum for bus drivers. Makes for interesting log book entries, too. . . ) Anyway, the point of my rambling is that there are several contributing factors, of which "driver error" will (sadly) receive the most press. Only when the "liars-for-hire" get involved will the bureaurats begin to start seriously sweating. . . Any bus accident creates headlines, often sad ones. Our thoughts and prayers should be with the families of those who didn't survive, as well as the ones who did. The memories never totally fade from these kinds of things. Trauma takes a heavy toll. FWIW. . . | ||
| Jim G. - RTS (Jimgohio)
Registered Member Username: Jimgohio Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 70.200.197.221 Rating: N/A |
We use the HOV lanes when going through Atlanta. Yes, you must be alert to the signage as these exits are listed as HOV exits as I remember. There is also one place where the HOV lane goes off to the left alone and then returns again to the main southbound road. This driver may have thought this was the section he was on as he has traveled this road before. Jim G. - 1979 RTS-II | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 762 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
wow, diesel mechanics school, I'm impressed,had no idea we had someone with so much knowledge on our board | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1200 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.112.181 Rating: N/A |
Bob - ????? You asleep at the wheel this morning? Or did the BNO software plug this comment into the wrong thread? | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 763 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
ya' have to have a memory longer than 4 posts long | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 293 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
RJ, old 2dogs is trying to start another pissing contest. Whenever in such a situation, I try to follow some sage advice: Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level & beat you with experience. OR Don't wrestle with a pig, you can't win & the pig enjoys it. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 465 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
Two Dogs? hmmm. Ole TWO DOGS used to have some admirers,err "fans". Always wondered what ever happened to him. He owned an Eagle, didn't he? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1202 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.112.181 Rating: N/A |
Kyle - Wasn't trying to get into a pissing contest. Just wondered if Bob's comment was actually for this thread or for another one. Probably didn't phrase the question well, but the toothpicks were still propping the eyelids open when I wrote the message. Gotta do a better job of washing the sleepy seeds out of the eyes before turning on the computer. . . | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 764 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
Kyle.... notice you like to use the word suck often,why don't you suck this little piggy | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 294 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
RJ, I'm sorry if I implied you were getting into a contest, you have more class & personal restraint than that. (I also noticed that post didn't relate to this thread, since no one had mentioned diesel mechanics school, but then I looked at who posted it & I saw that he was, as usual, adding 'information' & attributing it to someone else so he could get the distraction from the real facts started.) Now as for a certain poster, well everyone here should have noticed by now that if you don't agree with him he will start with the personal attacks. The more you respond, the nastier/ more belligerent he gets. It is so easy to fall into that trap. (I have fallen & can't get up ) If people spend enough time reading the boards & paying attention, you will realize that some posters don't always give good advice. Hence the need for a good discussion covering the facts & opinions & here-say. Personal attacks detract from that discussion. Personally, I have to wonder why someone will hide from the facts by launching in to personal attacks/ insults. BTW, I don't care if anyone thinks I'm an idiot, If they spend some time around me, they will KNOW! Back to the topic- It is a sad tragedy that has many contributing factors. I'd like to see all factors addressed, not just what the media or litigators want to jump on. If investigated with an open mind, ALL of the contributing factors can be determined, then they can be addressed & improvements made for everyone's benefit. As a result these victims will not have suffered in vain. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 323 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.77 Rating: N/A |
"It is a sad tragedy that has many contributing factors. I'd like to see all factors addressed, not just what the media or litigators want to jump on. If investigated with an open mind, ALL of the contributing factors can be determined, then they can be addressed & improvements made for everyone's benefit. As a result these victims will not have suffered in vain." That my friend, is dead on. That is how we grow and improve our lives. I so hope that something good comes from the investigations, so we can learn from this tragedy and make the needed improvements. On a side note, I just don't pay attention to the personal attacks and insults. All that does is reduce their credibility when they want to post a reply to something they actually know about or want to talk about. | ||
| jim morrison (Jim_morrison)
Registered Member Username: Jim_morrison Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 72.142.29.218 Rating: N/A |
bob you gotta see that 100 lb girl friend your get'n nasty | ||
| M&M (Busnut_pd4106)
Registered Member Username: Busnut_pd4106 Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.211.186.128 Rating: N/A |
DOT Orders Changes At Deadly I-75 Exit http://www.wsbtv.com/video/11241647/index.html | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
For everyones info. We have one of these engineering marvels in Federal Way Wa. Its southbound I5 around MP145. Also, DisneyLand exits on I5 Anaheim is marked on the R exit 1 mile. Then you see a huge sign in the left lane that says Disney Exit this lane. I don't know how many people cross all those lanes every day. My trucking instincts kicked in before I shot the bus across 4 lanes,(I can always come back, but I can't do something stupid). Half mile further, Disney also exits Right lane and they run togather. Should have remembered 3ed time in about a year I've done that. Houston is messed up to on I10 if you don't know the area. 10 left lane, 10 center lane, 10 right lane gets old fast. |