| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy Haab and John Conti (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Bought my dream Eagle in January - getting ready to roll... questions are - Power? when driving it home from FL pulling hills was a chore. It has a 6v92T but it felt as though the turbo just didnt kick in as much as I would expect. how much power should i expect on hills? How much boost is normal? next question - over the winter it developed a leak in the radiator lines - actually in the drivers heater blower line i beleive? when i fill the water in the radiator i have a considerable leak under the bus in the area of the drivers seat. i assume this is a blower hose - how do you access that? crawling under is my only thought... i do have many other questions being new to the bus world - but i won't ask too much too soon. Thanks to anyone who can help... John | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 743 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.189.203.211 Rating: |
There is no "Kick in" to the turbo, It is what it is, Just there boosting the air intake to higher than what you would have if you didn't have a turbo engine. Fact is you can't tell when the turbo is running because it's running anytime the engine is running. Usually at high RPM near the top of the throttle range. The amount of power that you have is a function of what the engine is setup for. Many 6V92T coach engines are only set to about 277 hp, they can go up to 350 hp if they have the large injectors and all that is required to get there. Fact is that these coaches are not speed demons, They don't climb hills at top speed and any grade that you are climbing will slow you way down. The only answer to mainatin any reasonable speed is to downshift to get the engine RPM up so that you have the torque to hold speed. 2-strokes require a different driving style than your car or truck. figure 20mph to 50mph depending on the hill. Less if it's steep. Whatever you do, Don't lug the engine down, choose a lower gear to keep the rpm's up. If you have a leak, Fix it immediately, whatever it takes. Losing any coolant can compromise the engine cooling system and you only get one chance to overheat before a major expense trying to rebuild or replace the engine. Best policy is NO LEAKS... If you have a leak, Don't drive it! You should have a pair of large valves back in the engine compartment that will shut off the water lines to the front.( one in the feed line and one in the return line) Close both and don't open them again until you have the leak up front fixed. Also, If your coach blows black smoke on acceleration you may want to check your air cleaner. a partially clogged one will rob power and make black smoke. | ||
| steve gaines (Kysteve)
Registered Member Username: Kysteve Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.140.165.225 Rating: N/A |
John, you should be able to access those coolant lines via the spare tire area. Id check there first as after that youll be a takin apart the lower dash area. Im pretty sure youll find your problem under the steps though. Hard to say for sure though as you never know what the converter did to change things. This is a starting point for you though. Hope this helps. Steve | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
power - thats what it does... runs 80 mph all day but once I hit a steep hill - its 20 - 30 mph. more noticable on rural roads with short steep hills... i have plans to change the air cleaner - it does look pretty bad - I'm hoping that gives a bit more umph... i believe the motor does have the 8v injectors, at least that is what i was told. i'll have to research on how i can tell for sure. As for the leak - it has only developed over the winter - i think a line froze and broke? i checked fluids prior to starting it recently and it needed anti-freeze so when i added it - thats when i noticed the leak up front. I did see a lever type valve towards the side of the radiator and it looks as though its on the line which runs up front - i will close that and see. i will look for the return line. I suppose it should be in the same area? another question the coach has a ZF transmission - any feelings on that - i can't find info other then the ZF site which only shows new tranny's. i would like to get some shop manuals for both the motor and tranny - any place special to find them? Thanks for the help... | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Steve, thats where i started to look - i only just realized there was a tire in there - i was surprised! i was only looking via the small access hole where the tow hook is... i guess my thought of crawling under is where i will go. it looks like that tire area has a hinge on a plastic cover? i will pull some bolts and start searching. it looks like there is a boxed area under the driver seat sort of in front of the left front tire and behind all the electrical stuff... i'm sure it will be a tough spot to get to... thanks | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 156 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.125.61.116 Rating: N/A |
ZF has a pretty good reputation. Our bus has the coolant lines foward side by side, but ive seen some on each side of the engine compartment. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
John, take out the spare tire and just look above it. No water lines from side service door. You didn't say what year your coach is. If its DDEC you can buy a new program to upgrade power. Turbos don't like mufflers, Ive been told you wouldn't need an aftercooler if you didn't have back pressure. The turbo on my 92 pushes 25 lbs of boost. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.213 Rating: N/A |
Is that a standard, or automatic? | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Larry, sorry... you are right... its a 1989 model 15 - 45 6v92T ZF Auto Trans. it was never a bus - it started life as a converted entertainer... i was told it has oversized injectors and 8v92 blowers? (not sure what that means, it doesnt have a blower only a turbo) , about 250K mileage... i am not sure what the DDEC means? i guess it means its computer controlled? i do see a steel box inside a bay that says in hand writing something about ECU and the date someone replaced it. in a car i know thats the computer? is that the same with this? sorry for sounding so unsure... but i am very new to working on a bus... i do need to dig up a manual or two and study... in all the bus is in great shape. after driving it home to PA from Central Florida - i am confident it will run great for years to come... just lots of tinkering i am sure... i'm up for the challange | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
John MC9 - Auto... | ||
| Bill Keller (Busnut104)
Registered Member Username: Busnut104 Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 71.31.79.249 Rating: N/A |
John: Where are you in Pa. Iam in central near Williamsport. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.213 Rating: N/A |
Not to be insulting, but are you manually shifting the auto into a lower gear prior to ascending the "steep grade", or waiting for the transmission to down-gear itself? You'll lose some momentum if you let the tranny decide... Pulling a "steep grade" at "rural road" speeds at 30 mph, is about normal for any bus with a 6v92 or 8v71... I wouldn't knock myself out looking for a non-problem. That's an 11 ton (when empty) vehicle you're driving. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 718 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
C & J - is that Wynn Silvers old bus? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1215 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.112.181 Rating: N/A |
Cindy 'n John - Next time you log into BNO and head for the Boards, take a look in the "Articles of Interest" section. In there you'll find my commentary about shifting a bus. It's mostly about stick shifts, but near the end I discuss automatics. Have you run your coach across a set of scales and determined what it weighs in travel trim? Two-fold reason for this: One to set your tire pressures correctly, and the other to help figure out your power/weight ratio. The magic p/w number seems to be 100:1 - 100 lbs of coach for every 1 hp of engine. This ratio seems to give the best combination of performance and fuel economy. Pull a valve cover and look at the injectors. On the side you'll see a round tag with a letter/number combination on it. Let us know what that is, and we'll come up with the HP rating on the engine for you. Being an '89, and with a ZF, chances are very good that it's a DDEC (Detroit Diesel Electronic Control) engine. If it's not already set over 277 hp, chances of getting it pumped up are very slim, as a Detroit dealer is the only one who can reprogram the ECM, and the EPA gets all snotty about it when folk want to hot-rod their engines. You may be in luck, however, if it was originally an entertainer and not a regular bus. Often companies who provide custom interiors order the shells with optional higher HP powertrains. Finally, if you're climbing a grade and you see a lot of black smoke out the exhaust, back out of the throttle, you're feeding the engine too much fuel - a sure-fire way to overheat a two-stroke! But first, follow up on the above suggestions, and also get yourself a new air filter element. Also, if it doesn't have one already, get one of the little air filter monitors that you tap into the intake. They're available at any HD truck parts house, and will help you easily monitor how dirty the element's getting, based on air flow restriction. And last, but not least: Remember the children's fable about "The Tortoise and The Hare"? Well, guess what. . . You're now driving a tortoise, not a hare, when you're behind the wheel of your Eagle. Drive the coach with that mindset, and you'll be a happy camper. Try to drive it like it's a hare, and you'll always be frustrated. FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 719 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
C & J - another thing about the turbo - you need to anticipate inclines in grade and learn to provide throttle BEFORE you start the grade - by spooling up the turbo PRIOR to climbing a grade you will greatly improve your torque and HP eliminating the need to RECOVER and maintain your speed - HTH | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 779 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
Excelant awnsers...... just remember ,your bus is a LADy.....heavy equipment needs to be treated gently.... it's not for jumping creeks....there is SOOO much weight there...and ,there is some power.wheather you realize it or not.....the weakest thing is the drive line...clutch,trans. ...so no burnouts, the two cycles...NEVER LUG THEM....meaning,....when the engine starts going slower up a hill, grab another gear, you don't need a tach...but...you know what the engine sounds like at 60...that's the sound you need to hear AND...it ain't no race car...it will go slower up a hill , but..I pass Big Trucks...course , they go 80,000 pounds going up that same hill... | ||
| Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Registered Member Username: Utahclaimjumper Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 208.66.39.52 Rating: N/A |
John, take my word for it,you DO have a blower on your 6V92>>>Dan | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 483 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
You mentioned that you thought a line might have frozen....I hope you have antifreeze in that cooling system?Have you replaced your fuel filters yet? They could cause this, if they are just starting to be restricted. 45ft? Get your coach weighed as if it is real heavy, that could be a good reason why it is slow on the hills, especially with only a 6v-92. Beautiful looking coach though, love to see it sometime. | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the answers guys... Niles - Yes this is Wynn's old bus. Bill - In the Poconos north of Stroudsburg, small town called Mountainhome - if you have ever seen ads for Mount Airy Lodge or Skytop Lodge - we are right around there... RJ - i will go through the article on shifting. i was playing with the different gears on my way home from FL and found that when i did shift it down it worked better. I will need to get used to the timing of that. I dont think i will be pulling valve covers off too soon... but i will keep that in mind. i can accept the fact that it will run slow up hills - i just wasnt sure if that was normal. i know it might need an air filter and thats on my parts list. Any good suppliers i should be looking to work with? Bob - sorry but Cindy has no desire to drive... i am the new bus driver in the family... i suppose i will coax her into it at some point, but she isnt ready to jump into it yet... she is still not willing to drive the 28' coachmen... some day i suppose. Dan - thanks - i will look at the system better and i would think that you are correct. right now all i see when i look under the hood is a lot of motor... i am more used to working on small block chevy's but i guess they all burn fuel and make the wheels spin - so i will make myself a diesel repairman yet... | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
John, You can go to DD and have them hook up the Prolink (handheld reader) and they can tell you all the current settings on your engine. In my opinion this is also a good time to turn off the computer auto shutdown. DD told me the biggest injector for my/our engine is a 70. With the big blower box they showed me a 450 HP download. I don't know about the ZF but the Allison ATEC will not allow much preselection without coding itself out and locking me out of foreward gears until the codes are cleared. Your engine ECM is located on top of the engine close to the back of the coach. I don't recommend you pull the valve covers on a DDEC engine unless you know what you are doing. Since your bus was never a transit unit you should not have a problem at DD getting them to reflash any software program you want. First find out what you have, since you have the large blower box you may already have decent horsepower. Sounds like someone has added already. Maybe they didn't buy the computer upgrade. Make DD show you the 450 HP for 6V92 coach. What is your top speed? When you get checked at DD will you let us know the base code by number that you are running? My old 300HP base code was 06N04M0202. My 350 HP base code is 06N04M0226. They wouldn't give me the 450 HP until I get the big blower boxes. Read your DDEC codes, save them on paper and have DD clear your history. Get your droop set for 150 RPM. If you can run anything over 80MPH you may have more than a 2110 RPM download. I've been looking for one of those with no luck, so let me know if you have one. DD has never charged me for using the hand held unit to do the things and gather the info I have asked about. Another word about turning off the auto shutdown. The computer doesn't care if you are on the RR tracks, or the middle of the freeway. If you are low oil, water, and God only knows what else, its just going to stop! If you disable this function you will still get warning lites and can at least pick your spot with safety in mind to pull over and check things out. Mine would shutdown at 2 quarts low oil if the nose was uphill, it took me 200 miles of limping to figure that one out. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1869 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.85.33 Rating: N/A |
I have seen Wynn's bus a couple of times at Eagle rallies, and it is a beautiful bus. Since he owned a bus company I suspect he had it cranked up as high as it would go, but you could ask him, unless he has passed. Even someone at the bus garage he owned could probably give you some good information. Richard | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 531 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.1.180.218 Rating: N/A |
"I have seen Wynn's bus a couple of times at Eagle rallies, and it is a beautiful bus. Since he owned a bus company I suspect he had it cranked up as high as it would go, but you could ask him, unless he has passed. Even someone at the bus garage he owned could probably give you some good information. Richard" Wynn is still around and kicking. We saw him & Kathy about 3 weeks ago at a rally. He has pretty much retired, but his son John is running the business. Jack | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Yes - Wynn is still with us... we bought the bus in January from him. we are planning to be back down in Central FL this summer with our bus and will be paying Wynn and John a visit for service work. i will discuss some more details with him then. I am not one to pester someone after a sale, although i know they would be more then willing to give answers... but part of the fun is sorting things out on your own and looking for help from you guys on things that are confusing. I was playing with things today and found the shut off valves for the front water lines. there was one on either side of the motor - one at the radiator i suppose the feed line and one on the other side of the motor - looks like the return? or vice - versa... but that stopped the leak... I dont know when i will be able to get it to DD for the engine code checks but it will be added to my list. i have a local mechanic lined up to do some of the maintenance - he works on everyones dump trucks and tractor trailers in the area... but you guys are right Wynn most likely had things turned up high. I easliy ran 80 MPH most of the way home from FL in January. it has been parked since, while i do some modifications inside. Entertainers dont like to cook or wash dishes... so a new two burner electric cooktop is going in and a galley sink is most of the way installed. i really appreciate all the info you guys have supplied... this forum stuff is very helpful. i have read posts here for a long time - but never thought i would be posting... Thanks. | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Bob - i just re-read your post and you meant the bus is a Lady! I'm sorry i mis-read it before... you are right... It is... and i do want to make sure i treat her that way... Thank you! | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 161.7.2.160 Rating: N/A |
Beautiful bus and awesome appointments! ZF-- What I was told when I bought mine was DO not overfill or allow it to run low on oil. It is probably an Ecomat. My tag was on top of the tranny it is usually on the side. The ZF manuals (parts and repair) I have not been able to find I was told that "ZF is closed To DIYer’s and only qualified repair shops have the diagnostic equipment to check the tranny out and fix." Hope this helps Skip | ||
| Cindy and John (Cindyandjohn)
Registered Member Username: Cindyandjohn Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 70.15.55.179 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Skip... I was thinking ZF was like that - no DIY'er's.... I'm thinking the tranny is fine, i will be sure to check levels and keep them in check - thanks for the tip and the compliments. I'll look for the tag when i get under there... John | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 744 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.189.203.211 Rating: N/A |
ZF is an International Manufacturer and is big in Europe. They make auto and truck transmissions and even some used in American Built Cars. I haven't heard that they went out of business, Just that in the U.S. they were never widely used in lots of places. Mostly Imported Tour buses and a few City buses that used the ZF-R versions. 1987 through 1992 builds. Not many after that from what I have read. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 745 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.189.203.211 Rating: N/A |
http://www.zf.com/defaultz.asp?id=5980&lang=1 |
