| Author | Message | ||
| Travis Wichert (Travis)
Registered Member Username: Travis Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 67.160.96.81 Rating: N/A |
Howdy Busnuts! My lady-partner and I want to build a conversion bus to live and work in. She and I have businesses that require/allow us to travel extensively, and we're both about sick of dealing with airline price hikes and the Department of Homeland Security telling us we can't brush our teeth on the way from here to there. I'm completely new to the world of Diesels, ~40+ ft vehicles, carpentry and plumbing. I have limited high voltage experience and some low-voltage experience. I don't really know who to talk to for well-seasoned advice in the area, but you folks seem to have a handle on things. I'm not afraid to think and learn on my own. Neither is Jessica. In fact, we've been thinking-through and mapping out all the different life-support systems (heat/cool, electric, water, etc) for this boat that we can think of, trying to come up with our own designs for everything, and then comparing them to real-world examples. So far it looks like we're heading in the right direction, but I'm posting here to get some real dialog from smart people related to my quest; more brains on-board would be nice. I hope to find some help here. The Coach, Engine and Transmission It's been suggested to me that I find a cheap used MCI MC8 or MC9 coach, or a used conversion that already has most of the systems in place. After reading about the older MCI's, it seems like they all have picky Detroit Diesel engines in them that suck down motor oil at the rate of about 1 gallon every 1200-2300 miles. I don't know if that's good or bad or even true. Either way, as of right now I'd like a modern power plant that is "smart" enough to accommodate someone who is new to diesels. I have a little experience (about 400 hours) behind some 30' diesel shuttle busses, but it was all city driving. What do you think would make for a good main engine? From what I've read, Allison makes the best transmission for this application. I usually trust experience more than marketing and hearsay, so I'd like some opinions about coach transmissions, both manual and automatic. While researching shells to convert, I found the Neoplan Skyliner. This shell is inspiring, but unfortunately I don't think it would be easy to find parts and service for. Sean Welsh (the Odyssey guy) has a meticulously-documented conversion that is somewhat similar to my idea. His coach is built on a Neoplan Spaceliner shell, which I believe is a bit smaller than the Skyliner, but just as cool. Does anyone have experience converting a double-decker Neoplan bus like this? Also, Sean had the help of Infinity Coach in Sumner, WA, but Sean provided engineering plans and a statement of work to detail the project scope. I can write a SOW, but engineering plans for engines, electrical and plumbing are areas where I'll need some help. I'm not sure a professional coach conversion corporation is the way I'd like to go. I'd rather give my beer/money to a local busnut than another corporation. Any takers? Water and Heat Wherever possible I want to avoid using LP. The main and genny engines produce heat. Water heaters, fuel lines, cold engine blocks, hydronic cabin heaters, and hot-dog warmers consume heat. This seems like a rather complimentary relationship, and I'm not the first person to have this revelation, according to Google. I spent an hour the other day thinking and sketching a system with a common "waste heat" tank, into which engine heat and heat from external sources can be deposited, and from which heat can be drawn by heat-consuming systems. I know the Navy uses a similar system. So do co-gen power plants. Does anyone have first-hand experience implementing this kind of thing into a conversion bus? Is it too good to be true? Would you recommend liquid-cooled generators for an RV application? Electricity I think circa 15kW will be plenty of juice for my rig, based on my elementary load calculations. From what I've seen, 16kW is the sweet spot for consumer and small commercial stand-by generators. I'm more concerned with buying reliability than price. It must be diesel. Any make/model/vendor suggestions? Living Spaces Jessica and I keep coming back to the subject of loft beds, similar to college dorms, with our office space underneath the bed. From what I can tell, the inside height of a typical MC9 is something like 7ft. We can sit comfortably on bean bags at our (low) desks, and measure 3'4" tall. If we allocated ~4' to office space, and ~3' to bed space, our "bedroom" could run double-duty and free up a lot of room for other functions. My Google searches have only found fifth-wheels "with loft", so I'm curious if anyone has done this in a bus. I think that's it for now. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have a whole lot of Ideas(tm), but nobody with experience to reality-check them with. I've done a lot of research on bus conversions, but I can't even see one whole side of the iceberg yet.  I'm all ears and brainstorms. As an aside, Jessica and I use a tool called Compendium (http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/) to concept-map and organize our research. It's free (Big Brother paid for it), and it's released under a somewhat open license, so you can download it for free. Everything I'm learning about the world of busnuts is going into my own giant mind-map. It's quite versatile. NASA uses it for organizing space shuttle missions. Maybe it'll work for you too. Okay, that's all for now. Thank you! Travis | ||
| Kyle Fowler (Busmancow)
Registered Member Username: Busmancow Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.130 Rating: N/A |
Sounds like your gonna have fun! But remember one thing, if you convert a double-decker, the places you are going to be able to take it will be limited, and parts will also. MCI makes great coaches and parts are plentiful, you can easily make older ones look new again with affordable fiberglass update kits (if thats your thing). Detroits older engines are pretty good engines, they pretty much all use alot of oil, they say Detroits "bleed" oil rather than "leak", as they are supposedly made to do that. Good luck! Im sure the folks here can help you!-Kyle | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
1st question, how much do you want to spend. Only worn out DD's use oil at the rate you speak of The two stroke DD is one of the most reliable engines on the planet. EPA is the olny reassson they stopped putting them in highway vehicles.....and you are exempt from any testing I suggest unless you are going to be converting it full time over a few months you buy something already done. Buy a bus that is commonly used in todays market, even if it is an older model.....it will make finding competent mechanics and parts easier. But back to # 1....what is your budget? | ||
| Travis Wichert (Travis)
Registered Member Username: Travis Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 67.160.96.81 Rating: N/A |
Douglas, I'd like to say somewhere between $150,000 - $200,000, but because we're financing, it depends on what the banks are willing to entrust us with. The Arcadia will be somewhat of an art project for us too, and there are many "features" we'd like to add that we haven't seen on other rigs. Thanks for the suggestions. Finding parts and service for it is important, especially because we'll be full-timing. | ||
| Travis Wichert (Travis)
Registered Member Username: Travis Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 67.160.96.81 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Kyle! | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 97 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.154 Rating: N/A |
Travis, Welcome to the odyssey! You will get many opinions expressed here shortly, here's mine: Don't look down your nose at a Detroit. The 71 series was manufactured for over 30 years, if it wasn't any good, they couldn't have kept on selling it to every major bus maker for that length of time. When the need for more power arose, so did the 92 series. Except for stringent emission standards, it would still be made today. Parts for both of these are readily available everywhere. Keep in mind that a 20 year old highway bus will have well in excess of a million miles on it, and who knows how many on the third or fourth engine? So, can an engine with 400,000 miles on it burn/leak oil? The answer is obvious, but the engine still runs!! I am a licensed HVAC/electrical contractor, and I am installing a complete hydronic heating system in my bus, for several reasons. I do it on a larger scale in houses and commercial buildings, and it works well, doing away with all but one vent for the entire bus. Diesel engines require heat to start in weather below about 40 degrees, so why not use your aux heat source in "reverse" and heat the engine? Water heaters are made with a heat exchanger to take waste heat off the engine, so when you arrive, you have free hot water. Hydronic systems can be zoned easily, baseboard systems only use a small amount of electricity to run a circulating pump. I personally would not even think of an all electric bus, because I like to go boondocking, (which means going where there is no shore power, and staying there for a week or more) A 3-way fridge will sit there on propane for a month silently keeping your beer cool. A Webasto, or other brand, diesel heater will heat your water, your bus, and your engine. Yes, use a liquid cooled gen, and plumb it into the one heating system too. Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask. George | ||
| Arnie Molloy (Ayjay)
Registered Member Username: Ayjay Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 151.203.210.131 Rating: N/A |
Travis: A Caveat! Before you get in too deep, Ive been told many financial Institutions will "NOT" loan money on a "Self-Conversion" But willingly finance "Commercial Conversions". You might want to check with your financial Institution. AyJay 79 RTS. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 151.213.166.33 Rating: N/A |
I'm not trying to discourage you from building your bus if that is your passion (and it takes passion above all else to see it through) but for that kind of money you can buy a really nice used professional conversion. $150-200K will buy a 91-96 Liberty, Marathon, Custom coach etc. Many of them are low miles and extremely well maintained. Look at http://heartlandbus.com/ and http://horizoncoach.com/ for starters. You will find it much easier to finance one of these. It is all but impossible to finance a home built except with an equity loan. Len (Message edited by lsilva on February 24, 2007) | ||
| Bobofthenorth (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member Username: Bobofthenorth Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 142.165.58.6 Rating: |
I'm with Len & it entirely depends whether you like the journey or the destination but - were it me - I would be looking at good used conversions. If you are a tinkerer don't worry - there will always be plenty to tinker with. These things are NEVER done. You can get so much better value by buying a completed conversion plus you can start using it immediately. JM2CW | ||
| Jim & Linda Callaghan (Jimc)
Registered Member Username: Jimc Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 66.175.195.35 Rating: N/A |
I agree with Len and Bobofthenorth, If you can affford that much to spend on the coach, go for a cherry, low milage commercial conversion. You may have to set up your office and sleeping arrangements the way you want, but that is minor when you look at the work that a full blown conversion takes. It has been said many times on this and other boards that a full conversion takes anywhere from 3,000 to 5,000 hours to complete. You have to ask yourself if you have that kind of time to spend. That is the equivalent of 2 years of work at a FULL TIME job. Most people do not have that time. You can be a bus owner and a bonified bus nut without building the whole thing yourself. JimCallaghan 4106 Wisconsin | ||
| Russ Barnes (Neoruss)
Registered Member Username: Neoruss Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.19.14.29 Rating: N/A |
Travis, Well I'm a NEO nut since I have an '81 Skyliner that I've been working on for several years and there are several to go. I sold the 8V-92 and Allison 747 and put in a Series 60 and Allison World (6 speed). Better mileage and easier to find people that understand them. But the coach still needs a lot to finish. Where are you located? I'm near Nashville and I know when I started mine I drove to Arkansas to look at one that a guy named Brandon Brown was converting. These are true double deckers and 13' 6". So a little taller than the old coaches that most have, but closer to the newer ones that are all over Nashville. About the same height as the new large fifth wheelers and of course the over the road truck fleet usually takes every inch of the 13' 6" regulations. I decided not to mess with needing Neoplan parts (except a very few) so most of the hard to get running gear is Freightliner or common coach parts that all the rest of the nuts here use. But just more for the space - i.e. two heaters, two Coleman basement airs. etc. Drop me a line off here if you want to chat and not be picked on for not following the crowd. Russ | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1055 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.64.138 Rating: N/A |
Travis, one thing seems sure to me. I think that you will have a battle because of prejudices that you bring to this hobby. When you say that you want to avoid LP and go mostly all electric, you are painting yourself into a corner. Once you start down that path, you will find it hard to back up. The various things that you have learned need tempering; one way to find that is to try on the hobby with an inexpensive RV. What will happen in fairly short order is that it will become obvious why RVers and busnuts do the things that they do. A couple of tips; an all electric coach can be very difficult to use in many places and a couple ounces of propane replace one golf cart battery in normal use. One other thing that many surprise you is that while most people think that cars shouldn't burn motor oil, it's a serious budget item on diesels because it is normal for them to use some. With a two stroke, engine wear causes poor fuel and oil economy, more so than a four stroke. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
I have no issues with all electric. UNless your boondocking for a week all electric is fine...... and even then thats what a Generator is for. Now 4 all electric buses in the Family | ||
| Andrew Karle (Andy_karle)
Registered Member Username: Andy_karle Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.82.9.45 Rating: N/A |
Travis call Winn at Bus for Sale in Nashville TN or John Spelling the owner these guys are straight shooters tell them Andy Karle sent you.There # is 615 859 1998 They have alot to choose from. | ||
| Travis Wichert (Travis)
Registered Member Username: Travis Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 67.160.96.81 Rating: N/A |
WOW! Thank you all! You've really thrown a bunch of advice and opinion my way, and that's a great help. And special thanks to you for calling things (and B.S.) like you see it. That means a lot. 1) Regarding LP, I misspoke. What I mean by "avoid using LP wherever possible," is that I want to use it as a "backup" fuel with a preference for Diesel/Vegetable Oil or Electricity (powered by Solar, Diesel/VO). I'm really not averse to LP. My range and BBQ will be LP-fired for sure. There's no substitute for gas cookin'. 2) I'm inevitably going to convert my coach, whatever it might be, to use both diesel AND vegetable oil as fuel for the main engine and generator, and I'd like to install a Webasto to supply heat when the engine and genny are off. I've been researching the "Frybrid" for years and have several close friends who swear by it, and drive 50,000 miles or more every year with it. Waste VO (from McDonalds, et al) is plentiful and free/cheap, whereas LP and Diesel are more expensive. 3) I used to boondock with the 'rents for weeks at a time as a kid, so I'm not totally green to RVs. 4) Someone emailed me and asked me some questions. I wrote back with my answers. Here's most of my reply: Do you enjoy the design process? I'm an information technology consultant and the design process is my life. I meticulously document everything. Jessica is a project manager. Same story. Do you enjoy "hands-on" work? In general I like to get my hands dirty. I'm fairly good with tools and construction, especially when I have someone to bother for advice. I'm a joke as a welder, but mostly from inexperience. I'm pretty darn good with tasks that involve "putting the pieces together." When do you want to use your conversion? Jessica and I will be buying the conversion with our rent money, but we've struck a deal with a relative -- two years rent free living in exchange for a cross-country drive when we finish the bus. We'd prefer to begin using the coach immediately, but it's not an absolute necessity. Do you consider reliability of coach and chassis important? Reliability is in the top three priorities. I'm not a diesel mechanic, although that can be changed with a little community college. On the other hand, I'm also not an experienced diesel driver. While I'm exceptionally good at finding my way out of cardboard boxes, my brain taunts me with the thought of a bad breakdown in a -30 degree storm. How long will you use your coach without hook-ups? It's important to us to be "off the grid" and self-sufficient as much as possible, to the extent that we'll be using vegetable oil as fuel for much of our diesel needs. We're inexperienced with living at the mercy of fuel, water and sewer tanks. We'd like to live as long as possible away from hookups. We have a car we'll be towing, and it will be rigged up with facilities for transporting various necessities between the coach and suppliers. Is that a vague enough answer for you? :-) Is resale value important? Resale value has a virtue, but it's very low on our list of priorities. This bus isn't a business decision, it's a life decision. Our return on investment is experience and lifestyle rather than money. This coach will be our home, our office and our living art project. What are your priorities? As of right now, the simplest way I to sum up our priorities is this: 1) Reliability, durability, power, longevity. We require a solid foundation for anything we're buying. This coach will be taken everywhere from poorly-maintained BLM/NFS roads to the Autobahn. We refuse to build anything that isn't on a Solid foundation. Reliability is more than the initial purchase, however, and this is something I stress to my IT clients all the time: everything breaks, thus it is the high-availability of parts and service at low, stable market prices, that ultimately determine your purchase's profitable lifetime. 2) Function - Must make great use of space and meet our home/office requirements. That list is fairly long, and has changed every week for the last year. It's finally starting to congeal, which is why we've started looking around. I'll post the list of requirements and our custom floor plan design to Busnuts sometime soon. 3) Form - Must be clean and easy to clean on the inside. The entire coach will be painted black with white and red lettering, and will include a giant skull & cross-bones on the front, sides and rear of the bus, with each bone including one word from the phrase: "Live Free or Die." As it turns out, however, it's looking less and less like we'll be able to get the kind of financing we need to make this thing happen in the time frame we were originally thinking. We don't have a house or any property to use as collateral -- the renter's dilemma. It's understandable that we're thought of as a poor credit risk because we live in a world that places more emphasis on the faceless quantitative than the personable qualitative. So, from what I can see, even though we'll be spending at least $200,000 on our coach over the next 10-20 years or so, we will probably only be able to secure about $40,000 in financing. Thanks again, Busnuts! Travis | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1058 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.64.138 Rating: N/A |
Enjoy the journey, Travis. Tom Caffrey | ||
| Travis Wichert (Travis)
Registered Member Username: Travis Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.19.92.220 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Tom. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.30.254.255 Rating: N/A |
Travis, One line from your post above "This coach will be taken everywhere from poorly-maintained BLM/NFS roads..." leads me to suggest a heavy duty school bus, probably not over 35' for ground clearance and maneuverability. Len | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 228 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.43 Rating: N/A |
Some random, idle thoughts: 1. "we've struck a deal with a relative -- two years rent free living in exchange for a cross-country drive when we finish the bus. " My wife and I lived (full-timed) in our RV, in our own driveway for nearly a year prior to selling our home and "hitting the road". We took our only son (fully grown) along for a three day "vacation". Since then, I agree totally with -all- those that will tell you emphatically, that whenever asked "how many does it sleep", your answer should always be: "two". 2. "Reliability is in the top three priorities.............my brain taunts me with the thought of a bad breakdown in a -30 degree storm. " Welcome to the Zoo. While a used bus "can be" more reliable than a used car, it is: A. More expensive to maintain (think: 8 gal oil vs 8 qts of oil). B. Two million times more worn out by the time you take ownership. Unless you have all the facilities of a bus or truck garage, all the knowledge of diesel mechanics won't be sufficient. It's one thing to "run the rack", and another, to swap rear ends. (see: "A" and "B") 3. "We're inexperienced with living at the mercy of fuel, water and sewer tanks. We'd like to live as long as possible away from hookups." Well, if you own a home, or rent, you will be paying for the same items in a motorhome. But... the cost for those services will be more. You will be paying to dump your waste, at whatever cost they decide to charge at wherever you happen to be. Many campgrounds are now charging a full nights rent, for "off-road" dumping. It would be more cost effective to have as large a waste tank as possible. And a fresh water tank the same size... I'm not too sure where you plan to stay for free? You can't take a 40' bus into the bush country too well... And it's difficult to hide in the city. Fuel is going to cost, and you may not be able to run a genset in many areas after nightfall... Battery power, with solar panels carry an initial expense I can't afford. Replacing batteries or a damaged panel, can be costly, too... It's probably cheaper to stay with full hook-ups at some inexpensive, no-name campground. 4. "Reliability, durability, power, longevity. We require a solid foundation for anything we're buying. This coach will be taken everywhere from poorly-maintained BLM/NFS roads to the Autobahn. We refuse to build anything that isn't on a Solid foundation. " The bus is a motor vehicle. It's not built as anything except a motor vehicle, and was built to serve the purpose of making money for the operator of a motor coach business. It was not designed to last forever, or as nearly as long as a house. (<--- Period) If you're going to spend more on this project than you would on a conventional home, you are at your own, inevitable financial peril. 5. "Form - Must be clean and easy to clean on the inside. The entire coach will be painted black with white and red lettering, and will include a giant skull & cross-bones on the front, sides and rear of the bus, with each bone including one word from the phrase: "Live Free or Die." " Egads. We lived less than a mile from both the NH and VT borders of Massachusetts....While your NH plates read: "Live Free or Die", in NH ?... Our plates read: Taxed and Sick", in Ma.. Black absorbs the sun's heat. It's gonna' be hot, even up north. The "Skull & Cross-Bones" painted in red, on an all black bus should make it real easy to find places that will welcome your overnight parking. Yeah, great idea !!! (NOT) 6. "we will probably only be able to secure about $40,000 in financing. " Ok, so that makes the thoughts of buying a vehicle graced with "Reliability, durability, power, longevity", a bit moot. Ahhh, that's what dreams are made of... sugar and spice and.... no - wait... that's not a bus... Owning a bus is more like having 40 mother-in-laws, and a spouse that's continually having a "bad day". You have to develop a love for it, forget the fears, live for the day, and have open access to as much Qualude as you can get your hands on. Cheers. | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 198.136.32.74 Rating: N/A |
Just my $.02 worth. It seems like a decent used fairly new bus can be had for $50,000. as an example. Then dump maybe another $50,000 into the conversion process and keep the rest in an account for operating and repair and towing situations. Still well within yer budget. You can do it for a lot less if you want or a lot more depending on how much you want to get involved, and how sweet a coach you want. That is how I would do it if I had that kind of budget upfront. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member Username: Sffess Post Number: 687 Registered: 1-2002 Posted From: 67.142.130.35 Rating: N/A |
If you are looking for a home on the road, buy used. If you really have a passion to build one yourself, then do it. Your really sounded like converting one was just a means to an end. There are both professional conversions from about $80,000 up and excellent privately converted buses (converted by individuals)for maybe $30,000 up. If a tour bus can go on the roads you want to use, you can go there with a conversion. There are some roads that have an unusual hump or high spot and some with a low overpass that you cannot use, but they are rare. Check out the used buses in buses for sale at the home page of this site. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 89 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.141.186 Rating: N/A |
Tall order looks like, Travis.....I agree with the remarks from the "seasoned" folks who have responded. At the bottom line, as FF says, "do it your way". As Tom says..."enjoy the journey".... I'm a relative newcomer...5.5 years, but these folks have been the cement in the mix. Nothing like experience, huh? FWIW RCB | ||
| David Ljung Madison (Daveola)
Registered Member Username: Daveola Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.204.157.4 Rating: N/A |
A note on WVO. You probably won't want to pick up McDonalds oil as you mentioned, since it's pretty nasty and generally full of meat grease which is difficult to filter and deal with in bus systems. Collecting oil on the road can be difficult if you're hoping to get more than 20 gallons at a time. Also keep in mind that you are going to probably give up lots of cargo space to WVO processing, unless you convert the main tank and put some heaters in there so that you're 100% WVO. Not saying that WVO is a bad idea, I run on WVO in my bus, but it has tradeoffs, and those tradeoffs seem a bit unusual given a budget of $150000 |
