| Author | Message | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
I have no problems going up the hill 25 miles an hour but I have issues going downhill. On i-8 westbound before san diego I basicly lost my brakes. With the trailer I pull I can not brake it doesn't slow me down. I tried pumping it no difference,tried slamming the b rakes. No difference,and after slamming it I lost a lot of pressure,,,about 40psi . Besides getting brakes for my trialer what should I do to makew sure I can stop. These.hills were only 6% downgrade. I got to go down at least. 11% Thanks Dutch | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.61.96.82 Rating: N/A |
Dutch, How much does your trailer weigh? Pumping air brakes only uses up air. Have your brakes been inspected and adjusted by someone who knows air brakes? Air brake chambers only have so much travel and if they are out of travel no brakes on that wheel! Did you have brakes at the top of the hill and them loose them as they heated up? If so start down the hill in a lower gear. These things have really good brakes but they need to have proper maintenance. Above all have the brakes inspected and adjusted by someone qualified. Be safe out there. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 568 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
how heavy is the trailer you pull? You should consider Jake brakes as an added assist for downgrades. Never pump air brake pedal- quick way to use up all your air. Do you have maxi-brakes? when were your brakes adjusted; you need to know how to do it yourself, esp if you tow regularlily. Have you ever operated something the size of your coach with a trailer before, and on steep hill? Not trying to be insulting, but if you haven't you should get some training from someone experienced before you have a catastrophe. | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
He john You are not insulting me at all your helping. Anyway.on a flat area or on the first part of the mile downhill my brakes work absolutely great.1 small touch and I'm stopped. The trialer is dual axl 6by 10 cargo trailer. The trailer has brakes on them. But have never proper inspected/attached them. Is there anything I can buy at say......autozone to brake the trailer.and the gm4106 How about going downhill in 2nd or 3th?? I have manual transmission. Can it hurt the transmission if I for example go down a 26% grade in 2nd or 3rd!??? I'm thinking it will burn up the transmission. | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
general rule on a 2 stroke DD.....gear you go up you use to come down. Exceptions....you know the road or have great visibility ( distance) 1. I would get your brakes adjusted, yesterday 2. If you heated up your brakes significantly by inproper braking you may have ruined both the drums and the shoes by glazing them.....they will never work right again. Get your brakes checked ASAP, including pulling the drums | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 580 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.1.180.218 Rating: N/A |
At the top of the hill, Start slow and stay slow. It is much easier to slow a bus from 40 to 35 than it is from 50-35. Running in a lower gear lets the engine provide more braking, but don't let the engine over rev! If you hit the govenor at 45 in 3rd, don't let the bus go faster downhill in 3rd than 45. If this starts to happen, you will have to use brakes. Do not try to take the transmission out of gear to try to downshift while going downhill! I would check with an RV dealer or a trailer sales to see what knd of actuator you need for the trailer brakes and get those trailer brakes installed before you do any more downhills. Hopefully RJ, who trains bus driver's, will chime in about the correct braking procedure. Jack | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
Ok have checked it myself (the drums and shoes) and look still good. So back to my question. Is it ok for the transmission to gear downhill in 3th or 2nd for like 10miles??? Thanks | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 180 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
Dutch, you pulled your tires and drums.......just checking with the drums on does not cut it. can run all day in any gear as long as it's not lugging or over reving | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 569 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
Going down hill in 2nd or third, in a standard transmission, wont hurt for any distance BUT you will need to watch the RPMs of the engine...don't let it creep past goverened speed. As these detroits are two cycle, the valves move twice as fast as a four cycle, which makes them easier to float or fail at very high RPMs, let alone the connecting rods. 1900 would be realistic max, then brake enough to bring the revs down to say 1400 or 1500, then let it push back up. then repeat. If the grade is steep enough that the rpm's creep back up real fast, then you need to go down to the next lower gear to let the engine help to hold it back better. Generally, you go down the hills in the same or lower gear that you would need to climb them. Brakes need to be adjusted regularily, with good dry lining and drums. Any oil soaked or bad lining and drums need to be dealt with asap. One oily rear lining/drum will reduce braking by about 50%. An accident caused by your coach is going to be $$$$$$$ if a lawyer finds that your coach or yourself is at fault. Especially nowadays. Again, if you keep this coach, a Jake brake setup is not a luxury, but a worthwhile addition. | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
Ok john Thanks for all the help. My mechanic in austin rpelaced all drums and brakepads shoes so he will have to pay the lawyers!!!!!!! Hahaha Ok I wasn't sure with the lower gear and the rpms I pamper my bus so much that any high rpms freak me out. Can I do the jakebreaks myself or do I need help with it???? And is it costly and how long does it take to install them!??! | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 181 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
your loss of preasure....was it on one application? if so you likely have a large air leak in a brake chamber. Not knowing how you drove from Austin to San Diego.......It is possible to ruin your new brakes in that time/distance with poor use take it to a shop and have them pull the brake drums and inspect......ruined brakes may still stop you on level ground.....but may not when you need them on a grade. Did you buy the manuals yet......if not buy them ASAP. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 572 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
I know Dean's coach, and maybe Luke's do them. Someone on the board might chime in on closer shops. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1910 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.86.248 Rating: N/A |
My suggestion is that after you get the brakes squared away, you go up north and spend a few days with RJ in driving school for busses. There is an awful lot you need to learn I believe. Richard | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
Richard ...I'm going all over thre country and I know how to drive busses. After 1000000 miles and 5 years driving 40+ ft diesel busses/rv's I know how to handle them(never ever got into an accident) I was just asking for advise to see and hear other opinions. Soon richard you will know that I know a lot more than you think. The only thing I'm. Not to good with is driving with a cargo trailer through the mountains. Driving the bus around the globe (even on.the wrong side of the road In the uk) Hell I even drove the red doubledecker busses for a few months and the stretch busses that are over 60ft I believe. Try to manouver that through narrow streets. Anyway... My question that I had that is still unanswered is the trailerbrakes for the bus Thanks for all the other info | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
I have a hard time believing a 6x10 cargo trailer would be causing that much trouble. How much weight is in it? | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 184 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
Dutch your 6x10 trailer loaded to Gross would not effect your bus anywhere except maybe starting from a stop on a 60%+ grade. I towed a F150 Supercab Longbed loaded with two motorcycles and a few hundered pounds of other stuff and it made no difference at all. If you stomped on your brakes and did not stop you have a major problem..... get out your wallet and get ready to spend some more Money | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 185 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
1,000,000 miles over 5 years is in excess of 550 miles a day An RV is not a bus.....and driving an Auto bus vs a manual is a whole different beast too. You ride and steer a auto and you drive a stick | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
1000000 miles in 10 years 5 years class c driven and 5 years class a and busses. And class a are the same as the one I have now with airbrakes and diesel 2 stroke engines. I only drive stickshifts. I hate automatic ...makes me fall asleep Also just did the same route again and with 3rd and 2nd gear it is a lot better.. Also with the brakes re adjusted on the trailer(was missing a pad/shoe on the driver side)it is a lot better. Thanks for all the "advises" and recommadations. | ||
| norcal kyle (Kylexisxrad)
Registered Member Username: Kylexisxrad Post Number: 146 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 216.220.216.173 Rating: N/A |
www.hbindustries.us I know these guys sell reconditioned jake brakes and do installation. they're in southern CA. and Southern Oregon Diesel does jakes too. they're a bit far from TX, but they are some of the most AWESOME people in the bus business. right up there with luke @ us coach. I know quite a few here will second that. jakes help a whole hell of a lot. I have a single stage on my 6v92TA, and when I crossed the siskiyou mountains into/out of OR, I had to touch my brake pedal, literally, probably 3-4 times on steep 7-8% grades about 6 or 7mi long. I love them, and I can't say enough about them. mine were so nice that if theyre slowing down the RPMs too much, all I have to do is click the switch off to speed back up. its actually kinda nice. then, at th end of the grade, my brakes are nice and cold and will stop a 37,000# coach pretty quick. fwiw. kyle in norcal 1980 Eagle 10 #30223 | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
Sorry Dutch, there's just no way a dual-axle 6x10 trailer is going to have that much effect on a 15-ton bus. Trailers that size max out at 7,000 lbs GVWR, but actually getting that much in them is a bit of a challenge unless you're transporting cast-iron ingots. I regularly tow a 11,000 pound trailer on that same route, behind a 3/4 ton pickup. If my trailer brakes on that failed, I'd be in trouble, but I'd still be able to bring it to a halt, and I'd definitely feel my truck's brakes when I hit them. We're going to be towing a 7x16 dual-axle behind the Scenicruiser, and on that I consider the trailer brakes to be somewhat useful, but of little real consequence. If I lost the brakes on the trailer, I doubt I'd notice. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1911 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.86.248 Rating: N/A |
I apologize Dutch. It did not sound like you had ever driven a large vehicle with air brakes since you asked about down-shifting while decending a steep hill as well as talking about slamming the brakes and pumping then. . Seems like these are some of the first things an over-the-road driver of a large vehicle learns. The trailer will make absolutely no difference in your stopping power once you get the brakes correct and start down-shifting. I pulled a loaded 25 ft trailer behind my 4104 and it never caused problems or had any brakes. Also towed a Tahoe all over the country without any brakes on it and never caused the problem you describe. Again my apologies for questioning your driving skills. Richard (Message edited by DrivingMissLazy on May 26, 2007) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 333 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.116 Rating: |
And the "Most Tactful Man of the Year Award" goes to [drum roll]: </applause> (Message edited by john_mc9 on May 26, 2007) | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
He richard No problem you just don't know me and what I do know and don't know. I honor and admire all the advise. I'm just want to pamper my baby and wanted to know about the downshifting.. It just kills me to hear the engine roar in 3th when I go like 50miles per hour downhill | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
I'm still wanting to trade or sell it. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 334 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.108.116 Rating: N/A |
Hey Dutch..... For what it's worth.... Back in '74, when the Federale' Gestapos made the decision to impose a 55 mph limit, the 'Hound drivers were more than hounded by their management to comply with the new limit... or walk... They insured they wouldn't go over 55, by driving the routes in third gear, since the governed speed in third, was about 55. Yeah, wasted fuel... but also no fear of being tagged by the "gestapo", or by Markel, or their own inspectors.. No transmission suffered, and no engine suffered from the usage. Don't descend a grade faster than the governed speed in any gear you happen to be in. If you can go 50 mph in third on a flat road, don't go over 50 in third going downgrade. If you can't keep in at 50 without constant braking, and you aren't sure you can downshift safely going downhill, then stop the rig aside the road, and use second gear for the downgrade (or first). You don't want to overrun the governor at any speed/gear, but running it maxxed out at the governed speed will do it no harm... ever. I'll refrain from making any other comments, since Richard managed to be a million times more eloquent than I could ever possibly be! Have fun; drive safe. Never forget the magnitude of what you're driving, and the damage it can do. Cheers! | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
He john So then why do busses(at least mine)have 4 gears?? Did the "gestapo" wanna bust all drivers since they could go faster than 55?? strange | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Dutch, we don't have any 50 mph mountains on the left coast. More like 25 mph so you can have brake left, if you need to make an emergency stop at the bottom. If you are not a pro and have not driven heavy equiptment over this route, you must show a lot of respect, (low speed) for each mountain pass you cross. You didn't say what pass you crossed. A 6% grade drops 6 feet every hundred feet. I'm going to call you and talk brakes with you for a while if you don't mind due to the seriousness of our situation. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 335 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.196 Rating: N/A |
Dutch - Something lost in the translation, I guess? Since most buses can only go 55 in third gear, using third to keep to the 55 mph limit was the idea of it all... at the time... Ya'know.... They always taught new drivers to run each gear up to the governor before shifting up. If you were going to be running in 45-55 mph traffic, don't bother shifting into 4th, just ride third; it's easier on you, and your passengers, and the equipment.... Since you asked if it was "good" to run the engine at it's governed rpm for any length of time.... I figured you'd appreciate a bit of life's experience, and some examples of exactly what you were asking about. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1912 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.86.248 Rating: N/A |
And here is an interesting string that you may be interested in: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4141.0 Richard | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 69.239.169.115 Rating: N/A |
that's great richard a link instead of you telling me to get lessons. thanks for the first time though i get your point | ||
| Phil Dumpster (Phil_dumpster)
Registered Member Username: Phil_dumpster Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.112.107.234 Rating: N/A |
Anyone who has to ask the following questions... How about going downhill in 2nd or 3th?? I have manual transmission. Can it hurt the transmission if I for example go down a 26% grade in 2nd or 3rd!??? I'm thinking it will burn up the transmission. ...and drives a bus, scares the s#!t out of me. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.59 Rating: N/A |
Phil, I hate to hijack Dutch's thread, but you definitely have a point! Do you remember what happened when I said that a diesel doesn't provide much compression braking, and be careful going downhill? Outside of a whole lot of opposition, (by only a couple of people)I was told to "quit scaring newbies" by telling them to go downhill in the same gear they came up in. That advice has been around forever, AND is straight out of the State's Commercial Driver Handbook. 10 or 12 years ago, a large diesel/automatic school bus was headed to Palm Springs from the Riverside area via Idylwild. The whole trip East is almost flat, until it tips over, the point being there isn't an 'other side' hill to climb first, which would tell you what gear to descend in. Well, I don't even need to put in what happened, because everybody reading this has figured it out already. Only two more bits of information, no jakes or retarder, and tipped over in high. Sorry Dutch, HEY has a Y on the end of it. A 26% Grade? George | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 330 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
dutch, Just bacause you have a good driving record doesn't necessarily mean you are a good driver. my wife comes to mind  I hope you get the training you seem to need. The questions you have asked show a severe lack of knowledge about 2-strokes, air brakes, & hill decending. The DD2-stroke is a very different engine than a 4-stroke - different rpm limits & different power curves. I've ALWAYS been told that you will do more harm to a 2-stroke by 'babying' it. The old joke is to slam the door on your hand just as you are starting your trip to put you in the right frame of mind to drive the DD 2-stroke. They like to rev against the gov. That is the way they were designed. I wish you all the best! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 331 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
BTW, A DD 2-stroke doesn't roar, it sings They don't leak either, they sweat horsepower & mark their teritory! | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
yeah, I had to listen to the Detroit Symphony this afternoon !!!! Joe. | ||
| dutch (Dutch)
Registered Member Username: Dutch Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 216.9.250.6 Rating: N/A |
Ok all bets are off/on No more mister nice guy to my detroit diesel. And it works I borrowed a super heavy trailer from a friend and went through the hilld again and it works great,..,,,downhill and uphill. Sucks to go uphill 25mph and downhill only 50 but at least I enjoy the view. Now only to find a good glass cvleaner to keeep my view pretty | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member Username: Sffess Post Number: 698 Registered: 1-2002 Posted From: 67.142.130.14 Rating: N/A |
My DDV871TA is governored at 2250. I think many of your buses are governored at 2100. I don't think you need to keep the RPM so far below the governored RPM. If you want to know your governored RPM, run up to top speed in any gear and look at the tach. Shouldn't that be OK for down hill even if you like to run lower RPM when cruising? | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1915 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.87.165 Rating: N/A |
My governor was set at about 2300 on my 8V92. Many times I would run it up a couple of hundred higher when descending some of the steeper grades. The Jakes work so much better if you keep the rpm's up in the higher ranges and I run a lot of miles and never saw any problems that it caused. Richard |
