| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Tracy (Eagle10)
Registered Member Username: Eagle10 Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 72.224.133.207 Rating: N/A |
How often do you treat you diesel fuel tank and what do you use? I think I got some bad fuel and am trying to take care of it. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1094 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.65.197 Rating: N/A |
The people who make the fuel additives would like you to use them all the time. DDA does not recommend them. It all depends on the environment; warm and wet are a bad combination. Very cool and dry are best. Extreme cold may require deicers. The bugs grow at the interface beteeen the fuel and water in the bottom of the tank. I believe that they live in the water and feed on the fuel. They're aften called algae, but there's no sunlight in the tank, so I think it's some other kind of growth. Their bodies will plug filters. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Gary Pasternak (Cessna5354)
Registered Member Username: Cessna5354 Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 152.163.100.13 Rating: N/A |
Has anyone used an additive for the injectors called Diesel Purge. It is highly reccommended on a Mercedes site for diesels. I have used it in both my MB's and it clears out IP and injectors within minutes. It is fed directly into the IP and recirculated with a small container with the return line. Adding it to the tank is not nearly as affective. Gary | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1013 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.12.75.169 Rating: |
Hello. I'll back up Tom. No additives recommended unless you need anti-gell in the sub arctic, or you are fighting the growth of the bugs. Since there are already more than enough things for us to do, self-induced fuel problems are counter productive. Chnage your own fuel filters at regular intervals. Purchase fuel at major outlets that have good turnover of product. Major outlets are also more likely to follow a better regime of filter replacment on the pumps. Do NOT fuel up if the tanker is, or just has, dumped into the tanks. Stirs up all the crud on the bottom, and you risk getting a dose. When parking the coach between trips, leave the tank topped up to reduce water build up from condensation. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| doug yes (Dougg)
Registered Member Username: Dougg Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 75.89.18.67 Rating: N/A |
Theoreticaly a Fuel Pro 382 should let you see if bad fuel is starting to clog up the filter. We got ours installed but haven't taken it for a test drive as we're changing all the radiator hoses this year. (Those silicon hoses are expensive!) We got some bad fuel in Mexico once and had to keep changing filters till it cleaned it up. Will the new low sulpher fuel cause any difficulties? I've heard some school bus fleets are using additives to compensate for the new fuel. What's the coach industry got to say about it? | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 171 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.59 Rating: N/A |
Can I back up both Tom and the Buswarrior? Everything posted is exactly correct! If I could change anything, it would be to add MORE EMPHASIS to NOT FUELING WHILE THE STATION IS GETTING FUEL!!! This happened to me in a gas pickup, while on vacation. I got so much rust that I had to change the first fuel filter about two hours later, and two more in the next two days! Its anaerobic bacteria, and lives in the condensation on the bottom of the tank. How do you prevent condensation? Read Buswarrior's last line! HTH, George | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.13 Rating: N/A |
I hope you folks that are giving the "don't use additives" advise have accumilated at least 5000 miles on your fuel systems since the first of the year when ULSD hit the tanks. If not for Power Service, I would have a small fortune in injector service. Gov't wants us to all run 07 engines and I'm sure no one tested it in a 2 stroke they want scrapped. As soon as my 92 started to miss on cold start, I bought the Power Service. Why wait for the first injector to seize? It pays for itself in added fuel milage anyway so its free and my engines love the stuff. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1015 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.12.75.169 Rating: N/A |
Hello. Larry, the trucking industry fleets, and press, would be SCREAMING if the ULSD was causing trouble. Big fleets have engineers on staff, who will be spending money being sure. Lawsuits would be launched and you'd know about it for shure. If you knew the sophistication of school bus operators like I do, you wouldn't be looking to them for guidance. ULSD is just the latest whipping boy for whatever goes wrong. You aren't a dealer for this stuff are you? (wink!) happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 110 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.13 Rating: N/A |
Not a dealer! Just 38 years in the trucking business. I am a "fleet owner" and I'm all screamed out. There is no one to sue since the fuel is gov't mandate. I have not looked to anyone for guidance, I have to make my own decisions and live with them each day. I/we have logged the miles and the problems are real to me... Even though you have rejected this additive, if you used it, your engine would have new respect for you and love you twice as much! Don't forget to put some Lucas Oil product in the crankcase and Allison, it's amazing stuff too! | ||
| Phil Dumpster (Phil_dumpster)
Registered Member Username: Phil_dumpster Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.112.107.234 Rating: N/A |
I treat my diesel fuel tank with diesel fuel straight from the pump, when it gets low. The engine seems to like it. | ||
| Phil Dumpster (Phil_dumpster)
Registered Member Username: Phil_dumpster Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.112.107.234 Rating: N/A |
But seriously, When gas prices started to rise last February I bought a Mercedes 300SD at a local auto auction for $800. It has a 5 cylinder turbocharged diesel which runs great on the new ULSD. I haven't had any problems with it at all, and I've put probably 4,000 miles on it since I bought it. 32 miles per gallon of $3.00 a gallon fuel is definately better than 12 miles to the gallon of $3.50 a gallon fuel. At work we run at least a dozen pre-2007 trucks on the new fuel and have had no major engine problems that could be linked to the fuel, unless you consider the fuel responsible because it allowed the engine to run until a particular failure happenned. If ULSD was eating injectors or causing fuel system leaks, at least one of our trucks would have had problems like that by now. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 133 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.43.3 Rating: N/A |
__. Sorry to be talking "apples and oranges" here but I own two diesels -- very different. My VW turbo-diesel has a redline of 5100 RPM and it's very finicky about it's fuel. Also, the fuel pump is lubricated by the fuel. The car was designed for 51 cetane fuel - 40 is about the max that you'll see in the US. The car runs *much* better with Power Service silver or FPPS added. MPG's go up, too. __. The bus is *not* redlined at 5100 RPM! It was designed to run on the sludge at the bottom of the tank and the fuel pump is lubed by engine oil, not fuel (the Mercedes diesel cars of the 80's were the same). I don't think that additive makes any difference in the bus. __. As I mentioned, the fuel pump on the VW is lubricated by the fuel. Bosch specifies fuel with a "wear-scar" result on the ASTM test for lubricity of 490. The fuel companies and other interested parties in the US went round and round on this as ULSD was being formulated. As a result of an ASTM agreement, ULSD is specified as being at least 560 on the "wear-scar" test (the lower number means less wear). And it takes "refinery additives" to achieve this - plain ULSD out of the cracker gives higher wear. You can be that I'll be running additives that increase fuel lubrication in my car. But stock fuel will probably be OK for the bus. (BTW, the old LSD was about 390-400 on the wear scar test so if your injectors are lubed by fuel, you could see a difference. Enough to make injectors stick? I dunno?) __. Another issue with fuel is water. All diesel will have microscopic amounts of water dissolved in it. This tends to accumulate and also gets added to by condensation. These *microscopic* amounts of water can be dealt with by an additive that emulsifies them and pushes them through the fuel system in their microscopic state -- this doesn't do any harm; the problems come when the water accumulates to "greater than microscopic" amounts. A good additive helps with this. __. BUT!!!! If you have enough water in your tank that you're growing "algae" at the fuel/water interface, you don't need an additive -- you need to drain that tank and clean it thoroughly. Could that problem have been prevented by using a good, water-emulsifying additive? Maybe, maybe not, but you're way beyond what additives can do at that point. (Since our VW engines are so sensitive to fuel, we've been watching the new ULSD closely. The "gut feel" is that ULSD is being blamed for a lot of problems that it isn't causing but also there are some things that are showing up. In particular, ULSD seems to be shrinking the O-rings in the fuel injector pumps on some 1990's model VW engines, causing leakage at the pump. I think that Phil is right - most people aren't going to see problems from ULSD, but my guess is that a few people will. But whether additives will help is another question.) __. Sorry to be long-winded, but it's a subject that's really critical on my car and I've been thinking about how it affects my bus, too. And, Larry, ASTM and SAE papers have compared fleets that use additives to those that don't - pretty commonly, the fleets that use additives have lower fuel consumption, lower rates of repairs on fuel system components, and lower rates of on-road breakdowns. You're looking smart to me! (Another PS, My bus is a four-stroke so that make my conditions different, too.) (Message edited by oonrahnjay on May 29, 2007) | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 134 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.43.3 Rating: N/A |
__. Oh, and Gary, as I mentioned, VW's are very sensitive to fuel and fuel system cleanliness. If an engine has dirt and deposits in the fuel system (not destructively bad but the usual buildup-over-time stuff), Diesel Purge -- run from a can with outlet and inlet pipes so that the engine runs straight on it as you described -- does wonders for cleaning these engines up. __. But, as I described in my other post, I don't have any data that shows that this is needed in bus engines or that it will do any good to the average engine. And I'm reluctant to translate too much across since the engines are so different. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 574 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
BTW... cetane is the opposite of octane. You want a LOWER cetane. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 345 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.12.33 Rating: N/A |
cetane -higher is better see--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number "...Cetane number is actually a measure of a fuel's ignition delay; the time period between the start of injection and start of combustion (ignition) of the fuel. In a particular diesel engine, higher cetane fuels will have shorter ignition delay periods than lower cetane fuels. ...... Generally, diesel engines run well with a CN from 40 to 55. Fuels with higher cetane number which have shorter ignition delays provide more time for the fuel combustion process to be completed. Hence, higher speed diesels operate more effectively with higher cetane number fuels. There is no performance or emission advantage when the CN is raised past approximately 55; after this point, the fuel's performance hits a plateau. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.43.3 Rating: N/A |
Pete "RTS Daytona" wrote "cetane -higher is better" __. Yeah, I was hoping that someone else would say it ... (although it kinda isn't that simple; big engines, like the ones in ships, have such big pistons/combustion chambers that they need to have a combustion event that starts early and travels as quickly as possible. These engines run best on fuels with cetane ratings of 28 - 34. "High Speed" turbocharged diesels, like the TDI engine in my VW, run best on fuels with a cetane rating of about 48-51. It's kind of a "horses for courses" thing. But, basically, for a road engine, higher numbers are better... unless you're getting into the 55+ regime.) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 575 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
Higher cetane would work better with the latest emission diesels that run with slightly retarded timing. Same effect as advancing the timing- the higher cetane would ignite sooner or earlier. On older fixed timing diesels that had regular or slightly advanced timing, it would ignite slightly sooner than desired. | ||
| Dennis Tracy (Eagle10)
Registered Member Username: Eagle10 Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.13 Rating: N/A |
Update: I brought the bus home yesterday {150 miles} and it went great. I went to NAPA and bought a fuel treatment product called Soltron. The turbo pushed up to 15 {tops}. Before the treatment and it would only go to 11 turbo even after the fuel filter changes. This is my first treatment issue in 18 years of busing but I will continue to use it from now on. Works for me. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 576 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
A pressure gage on your fuel feed line would be very useful to monitor your fuel filter condition. Some members have done this. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
It's true guys.... ULSD is so bad that when you use an additive, the improvement is almost immediate and very noticeable. I have never thrown money away. I have nothing to gain if you use an additive or don't, but I feel that you do. The additive I use cost me about $.03 per gallon. |
