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Message |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.27.89.250)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 9:48 pm: | |
I've seen the posts on not idling the engine to warm it up or exercise it when it has to sit a while.
When it can't be driven but needs to stay ready to drive how about starting the engine, letting it run about 30 seconds and shutting it down, just to get the oil circulated up to the parts it has drained off of while sittig. Seems it could not produce much acid and other bad stuff in that short a time. Wouldn't even have time for the oil to warm up. |
Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 11:29 pm: | |
From what the DD rep. in Laughlin, NV said, you are better off starting it up and going for a good drive, bringing it up to temp. OR not starting it at all. There are proceedures in Da Book for long term storage (over a month).
Scott |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.187)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 7:57 am: | |
For the 6 years I was converting, I started mine at least every several weeks, let it idle and run at different speeds until temp was pretty well up. Most of this time the bus was not in a condition that I could drive it. At that time I was of course not aware of what Scott had been told. I still personally disagree with the "let her sit" guidance, think of all the surface rust on cylinders, seals that get hard, O rings that get hard, etc. My system obviously worked, the engine runs perfectly, uses no oil, has had no maint needs whatsoever. I had been told that the circulating of oil on surfaces, heating the oil enough to make any moisture and bad things escape, as well as excercising the seals was good for the engine.
I had checked the long term storage requirements, and did not think that was the way to go. |
Don Peter (172.147.87.165)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 10:22 am: | |
If you can't drive it, then what Don says is probably ok. But, it does nothing for the trans, tires, suspension or steering. Besides, it is fun to drive a bus around. Even if it isn't completed. -- Don |
Henry Draper (12.82.129.177)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 11:00 am: | |
BAD IDEA!!
I was at the same seminar that Scott was. Scott is faithfully transmitting the info given by the Detroit Diesel rep. In fact, I've heard that same advice from the Detroit rep. and others at at least three other conventions (bus conversions or FMCA) I've attended.
On the personal side--a cautionary tale--the guy I grilled and pestered when I was starting my search for a bus or shell (my mentor, so to speak) was converting an Eagle in his driveway in Edmonds.
(Took him five years--I picked his brain and watched/helped him for two years and decided this wasn't for me, went out and bought my mostly completed bus, and was on the road while he was still converting. He said he wished he'd done what I did, but that's a story for another day.)
Anyway, he periodically started his bus and ran it for a couple of hours while it sat in the driveway for all those years. When he finally had the bus completed enough to take off, and had sold the house, he found he had a cracked head, and other engine problems! Cost him $17,000 in engine repairs before he was underway. $17,000 that he didn't plan on spending--at least not that way!
We can debate all day whether those problems were there when he bought the bus or developed while he was idling it in the driveway, but the fact is he had the problem when he wanted to go and didn't have, or wasn't aware of, (and he had checked it out before buying it) the problem when he parked it and started converting. Based on what I've since heard from the experts, I believe he caused his problem by idling it.
For what it's worth!
Henry Draper
'64 Eagle
Edmonds, WA |
J.Meyers (208.169.40.24)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 12:42 pm: | |
I have been following the posts about engine idleing and warm up.
One thing no one has mentioned is that the most engine wear occurs on start up, equivalent to several hundred miles of driving.
When cold the pistons in a diesel engine are oval shaped and must be warmed to operating temp. in order to become round to fit the cylinder bores.
Racing a cold engine or placing it under load before proper warm up puts unnecessary wear and shortens engine life.
I have owned and operated DD and 4 stroke in different equipment from trucks to bulldozers.
I have always operated them as below with good results.
1.
Keep starts and stops to a mimimum
2.
If started engine should be warmed to operating temperature even if it is not going to be placed under load.
3.
Engines should be idled at approx. 1000 rpm to provide good operation of cooling and lubrication systems
4.
Engines should be to operating temp. before being operated above 1000 rpm or placed under load.
5.
Before shutdown, remove load from engine and idle at 1000 rpm for 10-15 minutes mimimum to cool engine.
One more thought, during cold weather if possible always preheat the engine.
I try to plan ahead and plug my block heaters in a few hours before I want to start my engines. That way they start easy with mimimium wear.
In my opinion starting any diesel without letting it warm to operating temp. is worse than not starting at all.
Best case is start, warm to temp., load (drive), cool, shut down.
I know this is'nt always possible when doing a conversion.
My $0.02
Jeff |
Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 2:05 pm: | |
Hi Jeff,
Some good advice there. I am certainly lacking much practical long term experience, but I have had my bus for about a year and half and have attempted to absorb every bit if info on it that I can. Going out on a limb, I'd beg to differ with point number four and possibly five. Maybe you can clarify a bit?
With point four, I don't think it is possible. (at least for my 8V71) I could sit there at high idle all day and I don't think my engine would get to temp. (180) I have always put the old girl on the road ASAP, after suspension is up etc. Sometimes it takes me a bit longer to finish my checklist and get gear stowed etc. while she is airing up. But on one occasion I had reason to idle it for an extended period (had reinstalled driver's heater and was bleeding lines, testing for leaks & temp etc.) and it did not come up to temp after about 20 minutes of fast idle. Mine, anyway, appears to want to be on the road cruising to really get warmed up.
With point five, my engine also never gets particularly hot as it is a pretty steady 180, even on steep hills. I'd venture a guess that after it is up to temp, it would probably remain at 180 no matter how long I idle it after driving. So I have been shutting down as soon as I stop - and even for fueling or other short stops. This is also as per DD advice from the engine seminar. (and although I don't have a turbo, includes turboed engines)
On a side note, I can understand that during conversion, certain tasks simply do not permit driving. I.e. roof raises, skinning etc. I suppose ideally, these tasks should be scheduled in such a manner that the coach can be driven ASAP after each stage. However, I am sure this is not always posible. I find that even my simplest projects take two to three times longer than I expect. . .
Scott |
Don Peter (172.162.65.66)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 4:50 pm: | |
Scott, note that Jeff is refering to 4 stroke DDs. My 6-71 won't ever come up to temp on just idle. And unless you have turbos, a cool down really isn't needed either. -- Don |
Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 11:41 pm: | |
Ah, I didn't catch that Jeff was referring to four strokes. I get in the habit of assuming all bus talk is about a two stroke DD, although this is not necessarily the case. . . My bad.
Scott |
J.Meyers (208.169.40.52)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 1:33 am: | |
Hi Scott & Don,
To follow-up on my earlier post and to clarify some of my statements regarding point #4. You are correct in stating that your operating temp. will never reach 180 while on fast idle. When I was saying warm to operating temp. I should have said until you are registering approximately 2/3 of your operating temp. (If you run at 180, then your warm up temp. should be approximately 120). If in doubt, another way to check this is to feel the side of your engine block. If it is warm to the touch, you are good to go.
Regarding point #5 - you stated that your bus never gets over 180 even on steep grades, which is good - it means that you have a good cooling system. Engine cool-down is more critical on heavily loaded engines, i.e. heavy trucks, tractors, dozers, etc. In the case of our buses they are usually not put under a continuous heavy load and usually cool down by the time you slow down from highway speed and get to your stoppng point.
But, one thing I should say, 2 stroke DD circulate fuel through the cylinder heads to cool the heads and the injectors. This is why you should idle your engine for a few minutes before shut-down, even if your temp. shows no change.
I have not been to any of the DD seminars. But I have always operated 2 stroke DD like I referred to in my previous post. I always let them run while fueling and other short stops, since most of the wear on the engine is due to start-ups. I have used this practice for 25 years and have been very successful with it.
My "OTHER" $0.02,
Jeff |
FAST FRED (209.26.87.44)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 5:34 am: | |
The GM 06 Drivers Handbook wanted 140 deg , before operating the coach.
I think with the air cond eating 60 to 80 hp and the two 80A air blowers , this may have been possible.
With those stationary loads removed ,
Hi Ideling will not generate much heat.
I do what has seemed to work for every car & motorhome I've owned.
Start , and drive at very moderate road load untill she gets over 140 .
IF camped in a place NEXT to the highway , where not much heat is generated getting to the slab , I drive 45 or 50 for a couple of miles, till the gage shows cold , but rising temps.
Most Dynomometer pulls on rebuilt or racing engines are FAR harder on the engine than putting along at 1200 to 1500 or so , and all are usually done bone cold.
Far more damage comes to an engine that has not warmed up , and is kept that way by ideling.
Cooldown is needed if the campsite is on top of Rocky Top , and you pull into your site after the climb.
The usual time that it takes to get off the slab ,register get a site , and then find it and park , takes care of any after cooling , even for the more sensative turbo engines.
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.154)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 7:08 am: | |
Running not over 180 pulling hills in an 8-71 does mean the cooling system is great, but also means the thermostats are shot. The book calls for thermostats not fully opening until 195 degrees, which of course means the engine should run at that temp when working. The shutterstat switch was set to not open the radiator shutters until 190 degrees for that purpose. But before you run out and put in new thermostats Scott, make sure your gage is not fooling you. The difference in mine was like a substantial boost in HP when going to the correct thermostats, diesels do not like to run "cold".
On the idle vs no idle area, a few years ago it was the "in" thing for truck fleets to put shutoff gizmo's on highway trucks. They would even shut the engine off at stop signs and stop lights after a very short cooldown idle. The owners found several things after long term tests. Their fuel mileage went WAY up, their engine life drastically increased, starters lasted just about the same time, AND drivers had all left to work for other fleets! They hated it! Somehow it seems "macho" to let a diesel clatter all night. On a cool night at idle, a 3406 425 hp Cat will cool off so much the heater will barely keep you warm inside the sleeper, I got goose bumps to prove it. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.25.54.172)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 6:11 pm: | |
My question generated a lot of discussion. I still wonder if a very short run is better than a long idle to come up to temp.
I know driving is best, but I worry that even with Lucus in the oil and 50 wt oil that after a month many engine parts are losing their protective coating of oil. (I always totally preheat before startup to about 105 degrees so the 50 wt oil is thin when I start. The 50 wt oil is for an 8V71TA turbo and meets is in the specs for that engine.)
I will be parking on concrete soon and able to get in and out for a drive easier. |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.251)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 8:17 pm: | |
Well, my vote goes to you as doing the exact right thing. I did it that way, it worked well for me, maybe I was just lucky, but that would be a first. |
paso (209.179.206.105)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 9:05 pm: | |
I vote for dont start if you cant drive,the DD871
in my boat has sat for 2 months in winter,started right up no ether,if your worried about dry bearings you can get a pre-lube pump-12v to pre-
lube before starting,you can find them cheap in
boats and harbors somtimes.
All the larger engines that I know of {say 2000 CU IN or more} have them. |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 7:23 am: | |
Hey I am all for pre lube pumps!
You know the "flip side" of all this is that I have had several occasions to resurect old buses that had been sitting for many years, no storage procedures at all, and all have started up easily, and performed the same as mine that had the occasional run and care. In fact mine is an old "Gray Lines Hawaii" bus, they went bankrupt and the buses had sat for years in the humid Hawaii salt breezes. It performs as good as any new one. Obviously either way works. |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 7:33 am: | |
Detroit Diesel speaks doubletalk. I have a friend here in the S Texas area, on his maiden run in his Prevost conversion, from Canada. On the way down the East coast, he started having power loss, stopped at a DD dealer. They put in a new set of injectors, claimed that old ones were shot from NOT being run regular during conversion. Cost him a bundle. Maybe an occasional squirt thru them helps? |
FAST FRED (209.26.87.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 9:07 am: | |
The simplest low cost thing that can be done , is to stop the breez from passing thru the engine .
The moisture in the air will cause rusting of the cylinder walls , so when you run the compression is lower and oil consumption ( besides the leaks) will be higher.
Close the Emergency flap shut off , by hand engine HOT but off, and then plug the exhaust .
This will help keeping the breez from passing thru your engine.
NOwhere as good as pickeling the engine ,
BY Da Book , but cheap and quick.
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.15)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 5:12 pm: | |
Well Fred lets let the others decide if it is cheap and quick. This is how to put it into storage, and taking it out is about the same. And of course during a conversion, you may have to do this several times. Quoted from the DD Service Manual, 6SE184:
1. Drain and thoroughly flush the cooling system with clean soft water.
2. Refill the cooling system with clean soft water.
3. Add a rust inhibitor to the cooling system.
4. Remove, check and recondition the injectors, if necessary to make sure they will be ready to operate when the engine is restored to service.
5. Reinstall the injectors in the engine, time them, and adjust the exhaust valve clearance.
6. Circulate the coolant throught the entire system by operating the engine until normal operating temp is reached.
7. Stop the engine.
8. Remove the drain plug and completely drain the engine crankcase. Reinstall and tighten the drain plug. Install new lubricating oil filter elements and gaskets.
9. Fill the crankcase to the proper level with a 30 weight preservative lubricating oil
10. Drain the engine fuel tank.
11. Refill the fuel tank with enough rust preventative fuel oil to enable engine to operate 10 minutes.
12. Drain the fuel filter and strainer. Remove the retaining bolts, shells and elements. Discard the used elements and gaskets. Wash the shells in clean fuel oil and insert new elements. Fill the cavity between the element and the shell with rust preventative and reinstall the shell.
12. Operate the engine for 5 minutes to circulate the rust preventative throughout the engine.
14. Refer to section 3.1 and service the air cleaner.
Anyone care to call a DD dealer and get a quote on this? |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.27.88.36)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 6:35 pm: | |
"soft water" DD needs to change their wording.
Water from a water softener has a small amount of SALT in it. Better buy bottled distilled water at 60 cents a gallon. |
FAST FRED (209.26.87.33)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 5:23 am: | |
Da Book is the method for putting an engine to sleep for an extended period , 6 months , 10 years .
By having a well flushed cooling system , the request to change to real fresh coolant once again is only a couple of gallons of Distilled water & a case of Real DD Antifreez.
Draining the lube oil when HOT is hopefully the "normal" way you do it anyway.
The special rust preventing oil IS VERY expensive , but there is no reason NOT to save it and use it over a couple of times.
SO were left with disconecting the fuel supply and running the engine on a 5 gal can of fancy fuel/oil.
And then plugging the intake and exhaust.
Sounds lots cheaper than a set of cylinder liners and rings, when its time for the road.
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.99)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 6:58 am: | |
Not so Fred. The book specifically says this is the method for 31 days or longer! My point is that someone following the advice to pickle it would be looking at a huge bill, not cheap and easy. I would bet you could spend well over a thousand dollars to have a DD mech come to your house and pickle one BY THE BOOK. Then we have to take it out of storage too, more $$. If you had to do this a couple of times, you would be cheaper to get new cylinders! |
FAST FRED (209.26.87.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 3:20 pm: | |
Why would someone need a DD mechanic to change coolant and the oil?
ONE adjustable wrench is all that's needed.
( Although it wouldnt be MY first choice of tools)
There is diesel fuel dope , used for boats, that would take care of the fuel,
at least better than nothing.
Different strokes , I guess!
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 4:26 pm: | |
Pulling the injectors and setting the valves would probably be a challenge for the monkey wrench too. I bet not a reader here has ever pickled theirs by the DD book, right? Anybody? |
Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 11:56 pm: | |
I haven't pickled mine. And while I am ready to tackle most jobs on my bus, I admit the injectors scare me a bit.
Scott |
FAST FRED (209.26.87.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 5:08 am: | |
I Guess I'm the only one that does follow the book, to leave my coach sit for a winter , I did pickel it.
NO I'm not a good enough mechanic to pull the injectors and re time everything , so I just used a commercial mix to keep the injector guts from rusting.
Seemed to work , fuel milage is still 10.3mpg at 70+ so I'm happy.
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 6:35 am: | |
You just might be totally correct too Fred. I think that the 70's procedures and supplies are not current. Was talking to Jim yesterday about that (that was his occupation), I think Cat does only a system like you do for their customers, not too bad really that way. Come on Jim, tell us how Cat does it! |
jim (209.240.222.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 9:19 am: | |
ok..... as per caterpillar's ideas..... here goes..... at the dealership i worked for, we used a product called NOX-RUST.....cat part number 1U8809..... cost $19.12 per gallon..... recommended rate of about 1 1/2 gallons for an engine comparable in size of a 3408.....you just pour this in the crankcase... run the engine for a few minutes....all you gotta do is circulate it good.....this stuff gives off fumes to protect against rust, corrosion....it will evaporate out in about a year... so yearly treatments are recommended....cat doesn't go to the extremes on the fuel systems.....in a non-runable engine, you still add the stuff to the crankcase, but you pull injectors, spray in the cylinders, under the valve covers.... inside the turbo, etc.....common sense tells you to seal the engine from the elements....all breathers sealed... exhaust....maybe need to get doug rees in on this....... |
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