| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Tracy (Eagle10)
Registered Member Username: Eagle10 Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: |
About a month ago, I got some bad fuel in my Eagle 10. I changed the fuel filters out and everything seemed fine for about 300 miles. It has been sitting for about two weeks and when I tried to start it today, it did not want to start. It seems like I have the same issues. I put a product called Soltron from NAPA in the fuel. It finally started but did not have any power. I have about 75 gallons in the tank. Any ideas?? | ||
| James Robinson (Jjrbus)
Registered Member Username: Jjrbus Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 68.245.185.211 Rating: N/A |
I had a fuel problem 2 years ago. I thought I had a bad fuel pump. When you changed your filters did you look inside? Was there any black stuff in there? does not take alot.(primary filter) You can pull primary filter and look. If there is some black stuff floating around you have an alge problem. Alge had actually plugged my fuel line. You can clean the fuel line by blowing low air pressure through the line. Do not use high pressure. Use maybe 20lbs at the most so as not to damage lines. Buy a Biocide, you will find it at marine supply stores. The stuff at the truck stops will not work, I dont care what it says on the lable!! You want a plain algecide, follow the directions. You do not need to blow out the lines unless they are plugged the Biocide will get them clean, just not as fast. If there is no black stuff you may have another issue. Others caan help you with that. HTH | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.208.71.186 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dennis, I will have to agree with Jim. Sounds to me like alge. Bad fuel?? Not unless you baught fuel from a supplier that is not very busy..?? Follow Jims advice on the marine algecide and you will prevail... Good Luck Nick- | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: N/A |
ULSD attracts water. Water and diesel fuel are the favorite food of alge. Big name distributors have recently found up to 6 inches of water on the bottoms of their tanks from ULSD. I don't think ULSD is storing well for more than a few weeks. I guess it may be a good time to put a drain on the bottom of the fuel tank. Keeping tanks full no longer offers any protection. There is an extensive article in this months Fleet Maintence Magazine. It looks pretty grim unless you have money invested in the filters business. It is being suggested that we all become fuel experts, ask each provider for their data on their most recent fuel dump and decide where to buy. Keep changing the filters, or drain the tank and clean it up. The article I'm reading does not speak highly of using this fuel even if you kill the bugs. I think you are the tip of the iceberg and we are going to be hearing alot about this problem all summer from people who haven't been putting alot of fuel thru their rig. Get some extra FFs for the parts bay and expect to use them. | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 152.20.216.103 Rating: N/A |
If water is a problem, perhaps water separating filters (like on marine engines) would help. Maybe those plus a recirculating pump to filter the fuel before it enters the engine would work. This is making veggie oil sound even better now. David | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 567 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 66.82.9.49 Rating: |
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. "ULSD attracts water." I'd love to know where you are getting this information (beyond the single source, "Fleet Maintence [sic] Magazine" you cite without authorship or methodology background). Removing sulfur from the fuel is likely to have completely the opposite effect, as diesel fuel and water are immiscible, whereas sulfur compounds are generally hydrophilic. In any case, I have never heard this and could find no studies anywhere suggesting that this is even a possibility. "Water and diesel fuel are the favorite food of alge [sic]" I assume you meant to write "algae," and here I can state quite unequivocally that this statement is wrong. Well, at least as far as bus fuel tanks are concerned. Algae *requires* sunlight to grow. So there is no algae in a fuel tank, unless that tank is translucent and exposed to sunlight. The black biological matter that causes so much trouble, fouling filters, etc., is not algae, but a set of water-borne microbes. A very, very few of these microbes can feed on the fuel itself, or at least some of the shorter-chain molecules, but most feed on other detritus that collects in the tank. As far as I know, there is no evidence in either direction that the process to remove sulfur from diesel, or the lubricity package that is then added back to the fuel afterwards, affects the growth of these microbes one iota. In any case, if you have a microbe problem, then any of the commercial diesel-fuel biocide additive packages is the correct solution. None of which answers the original question. To which my recommendation is to get a couple gallons of clean fuel in a jerry can, and drop your fuel pickup line in that. Put a fresh filter in and prime the system as normal (you did prime the system after the filter change, right?), then start it up. If it runs fine on the jerry can, you have a fuel problem. If not, then you have a different problem, such as clogged injectors, bad fuel pump, etc.. HTH. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 415 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.159 Rating: N/A |
"ULSD attracts water." ----------- ULSD - What Others Are Saying Paul Abelson writes for Land Line Magazine, a monthly magazine that serves over-the-road truckers. In his March/April column he writes: “Diesel fuel is a breeding ground for organic growth. Bacteria and fungi take nourishment from hydrocarbon fuel and get oxygen from water. They breed at the interface between fuel and water in the tank… condensation of humidity from outside air inside fuel tanks brings water into the fuel… Left unchecked, the colonies will grow large enough to clog fuel lines and filters. There are also bacteria that can survive without air that can grow on the inner surfaces of fuel tanks. These bacteria produce acids that can eat through fuel tank walls.” The new ULSD fuel contains a higher amount of dissolved water than the old fuels. Our tests show 5 to 10 times MORE dissolved water in ULSD than previously tested fuels. Over time, and with a drop in temperature, this water drops out of solution and creates a fuel-water interface in what used to be dry tanks. We saw that this caused problems last winter and expect it will lead to lots more microbe problems this summer. The new fuel grows microbes faster than the old fuel. ----------- What can I do to make sure my tanks are free from bacterial growth? Bacterial growth can occur at the water/oil interface. Without water, there is no growth. Because ULSD may be more susceptible to bacterial growth, good tank maintenance (housekeeping) practices are even more important. Routine water bottom draining and tank bottom sampling should be established to ensure a clean system and the efficacy of housekeeping measures ----------- Highway Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Wintertime Operation Background: The federal Government has now required all suppliers of "on road" or "highway diesel" to provide ultra low-sulfur highway diesel, (ULSD). This transition requires a switch from low-sulfur highway diesel (LSD) fuel at a rate of 500 parts per million (ppm) to the ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel at a rate of 15 ppm. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel requires a different refinery process to remove the sulfur. These processes leave the ULSD less friendly to the user in low temperature operation. Studies show that additional treatment may be needed for extremely low temperature protection. 90% of winter operability issues are water related from either water in the storage tank or condensation in vehicle tanks. Traditional winter additives may not be effective on ULSD due to the new sulfur removal process. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel is more susceptible to water contamination. Ultra Low Sulfur Kerosene does not work as a winter temperature improver and is on a very limited availability. ---------- Perhaps we shouldn't denounce the debatable issue too quickly, Sean! | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 211 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.168.69.233 Rating: N/A |
One more comment? In addition to my bus, I have 3 Dodge/Cummins pickups, which are all equipped with the factory fuel filters and the factory water-in-fuel indicator light. I have asked my foreman and installer who drive the other two, not to buy fuel at small stations, unless absolutely necessary. We have not had a water in fuel light on in over a year. Slightly off the subject, the new refrigeration oils are hygroscopic, (which means they 'wick' moisture from the air) standard industry practice is to discard a partially used container to avoid injecting moisture into a system. Back on the subject, we MAY not be able to defend ourselves against water pumped to us by vendors, but WE SURE SHOULDN'T EXPOSE OURSELVES TO MORE CONTAMINATION BY ALLOWING CONDENSATION TO OCCUR IN PARTIALLY EMPTY TANKS! George | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 568 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: |
"Our tests show..." I would point out that "Our" in that statement refers to a company that SELLS fuel additives. So, of course *their* "tests" show any number of problems that indicate their product would be useful to you. They have a vested interest in the sky falling. I will point out that Detroit (and yes, I know some here have Cummins, etc.) still advises *against* putting any additives in diesel fuel -- even ULSD fuel -- with two very specific exceptions: (1) if you are experiencing a gelling problem, usually something that only happens when running #2 in sub-freezing weather or (2) if you have a bacterial problem. Understand that diesel and water are immiscible -- the amount of water that can be "dissolved" in diesel fuel is infinitesimal, so even if you *could* dissolve "5 times" more water in ULSD (which I still don't believe, and won't until someone shows me an independent, scientific study or report that says so), it would still be an infinitesimal amount -- far, far exceeded by the amount of water that condenses in your fuel tank under routine operation. This condensation, which is warned about in all the current literature, including the above-referenced articles and also in George's post above, is the single most likely point of entry for water in your diesel fuel system, and always has been, even before ULSD. As has also been noted, it is also possible to get water from a delivery point, but water build-up at truck stops is less common than in your own tank, for two simple reasons: (1) the tanks are generally underground, where the temperature is more constant and the conditions for condensation build-up less favorable and (2) fueling stations employ systems to separate water from the fuel, either low-point drains on the storage tanks which can be pumped out periodically, or water separators on the pumps (which, by the way, are different from, and not located in, the dispensers). The last thing that Flying-J needs is a lawsuit from Swift or USF or any number of other huge companies that have the time, money, and a room full of lawyers to do exactly that. George has exactly the right idea -- your best protection against fuel contamination is to buy from high-volume stations, where you will get the freshest fuel -- good advice, that has nothing to do with LSD vs. ULSD. "Perhaps we shouldn't denounce the debatable issue too quickly..." Well, it's not a debate if there is only one side, so call me the other side. And, frankly, unlike politics or religion, the effects of ULSD on diesel engines is a matter of science, not debate. There are almost certain to be long-term effects from the change in fuel formulation, but until we have millions of miles of experience in thousands of vehicles, we won't know exactly what those effects are. I have every confidence that the refiners are keenly interested in this and will continue to change the blend and additive package to deal with any issues that come up, while still complying with the law. I have equal confidence that people who make millions of dollars each year selling aftermarket fuel additives will continue to fear-monger on this issue to leverage their own sales. And don't think for a minute that they don't have the power to position scientific-sounding articles in industry publications. When a magazine like Fleet Maintenance takes hundreds of thousands of dollars each year in advertising revenue from these aftermarket products, they are more than happy to get "editorial content" from them as well. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1931 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.76.30 Rating: N/A |
"they are more than happy to get "editorial content" from them as well." Sean, as a prime example of what you state, when I was in the luxury yacht business I always reserved the inside back cover of Showboats magazine at a fee of $10,000 per issue. I can assure you that anything I provided to them in the way of a news release or technical article, they were very accommodating in making sure it was published in the next issue. Richard | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 342 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
So, why is it best to avoid small stations? How does water get in the fuel at the station? Last I heard, They all use the same pipelines to move their fuels. They often use a water slug to separate the products from different refiners. (Makes it easy to know when the products change & it's a check that the line isn't leaking,) While water & petroleum products don't readily mix with each other, they will get mechanically mixed by the pumps at the pumping stations. It should be no suprise that the refiners keep the best for their own stores. It is the product closest to the slug that gets sold to the independent stations/ chains. It should be expected that the independent stores will have the most potential problems with water in the fuel. I don't usually place too much faith in what a salesman is telling me. Of course his pitch is designed to entice me to buy whatever he is selling. One thing I've noticed is, the harder the sale & the bigger the scare, the bigger the pile of bovine waste. ymmv | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 569 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.11 Rating: N/A |
Kyle, Just to clarify, I was not referring to the size of the station, but the volume of product moved when I said high-volume. But, to be more correct, it is really the "turnover" of the product that is important, or the volume of product moved relative to the capacity of storage at the station. I say that not necessarily because of water contamination, although water will more readily ingress into the fuel if the storage tanks sit half-empty for longer periods of time. Rather, there are any number of molecules in diesel fuel that will oxidize over time, and it is this oxidation that purchasing fresher fuel will avoid. Also, any water that does sit in the tank will have more opportunity to grow bacteria if it sits around longer without being pumped. Lastly, to amplify on your comment about refiners and pipelines, in many areas there may be only one or two suppliers of any particular refined fuel, such as #2 diesel. (This equally applies to gasoline). So whether you buy at a Chevron station or an Arco station, the fuel may well have come from the same tank at the same refinery or distributor. The only difference is in the additive package, which is generally added to the delivery truck right before or right after it takes on its load at the refinery. That being said, those additive packages can be quite different brand-to-brand. The additive formulations for diesel are probably more alike than different, but in the highly competitive gasoline industry, additive blends are closely guarded trade secrets with substantial differences. I am not aware of any modern petroleum pipeline operator separating petroleum batches with water. Most wholesale fuel oils are completely fungible and there is very little actual separation of petroleum products in the distribution pipelines. It's all mostly a matter of accounting. Generally, the only time it matters is when different products transit the same pipe -- for example, kerosene and diesel, or two different grades of gasoline, or summer formula vs. winter formula. Some of the two products mixes in transit, and this mixed area is called "transmix" (or sometimes "interface mix"). Depending on the ultimate destination, the transmix may be allowed to deposit into the tankage for the lower-grade product, or it may be redirected to separate tankage for reprocessing back into the separate products. Again, FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| clark lane (Bus05eagle)
Registered Member Username: Bus05eagle Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 74.33.52.83 Rating: N/A |
Sean,your right if separating is need its done with what they call a poly pig between the two products | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 343 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the up-date, It was years ago that I was doing some contract work for Conoco & that is where I was exposed to the water slug. I guess the new formulations of fuel don't like the water, hence the toleration of the cost of reprocessing. Question about the poly pig, how does it work & how does it make it thru a pumping station? | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 344 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
I found this: http://www.colpipe.com/ab_faq.asp#3 Looks like things have changed. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 611 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
One thing that has happened is the gov. requirements that necessitated the replacement of virtually all underground fuel storage tanks. We don't get near as much dirt in the fuel as in the past. I would think that "up to six inches of water" in the bottom of a fuel tank indicates more of a storage tank maintenance problem than from USLD absorbing water. That could be below the pickup point in the tank, or it would be sucked out of the tank at every removal of fuel. I beleive that every tank pickup is located at or near the bottom. Sometimes there is space left to avoid picking up debris, although then that slime will build until it gets to the fuel pickup,unless you have a means to regularly purge it. Just out of curiosity- how many of us do an occasional tank purge like you do your air tanks? I don't. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.231.129.168 Rating: N/A |
Sean, Thanks for those enlightening posts. Trade magazines are famous for using manufacturer's press releases as the gospel without giving source credits. Sure makes their column writing easier. This procedure is especially common with what I call "snake oil" products. They always will do everything for anything, I'm continually amazed that people keep buying this stuff. Then someone posts this stuff on forums and it suddenly becomes factual. Happens quite often. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1036 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 74.12.87.119 Rating: N/A |
Hello. We have already been through a winter with ULSD. No more trucks parked at the side of the road than before. I'm not the smartest, but I'll take proper scientific methods over heresay anyday. Thanks Sean. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 418 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.65 Rating: N/A |
This is a thread worth saving. Thanks, Sean! | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 140 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: N/A |
Sean, You asked for my reference aritcle so here you go. Heavy Duty Trucking Magazine. June 2007 issue. This months issue 145 pages, highlights fuel issues. The front cover main story is NEW FUELS,NEW PROBLEMS. by Deborah Lockridge, Senior Editor. I really didn't throw out any of my own ideas here, but I do believe this collection of information articles written for the heavy duty trucking industry is based on real science and is written with/in the best interest of all trucking operations. The sky is only falling at your house! HDT PP 38, "Most microbes that live in water love diesel. Sulpher is a natural biocide, but is no longer present in enough quanties to perform that function. When water meets diesel, you've presented a steak dinner to the microbes and they proliferate". Same story same page, quote from George Morrison, Distributing, Exxon/Mobil Distributor, Columbus, Ohio. "There have been people who got a truck load full of number 2 USDL and had 6 inches of water on the bottom of their fuel tank after delivery". This issue also has alot of information about biodiesel.... Glad I didn't comment on any of that! HDT, PP 46, The Natural Renewable Energy Labratory did a survey of biodiesel quality last year, collecting samples nationwide. It found that 59 percent failed to meet quality standards. For my little fleet 59 percent is a large number! If I get fuel that does not spec and I have a load of Ice Cream I have big problems. If I have a load of gas on, do you want it setting in the center lane of a 70 MPH freeway while I change the fuel filters? (Really we change those every month now) You may be able to read these articles at hdt.hotresponse.com | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: N/A |
OH, Shaun..... Thats how Nick spells algee and he's the boss. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 212 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.168.69.233 Rating: N/A |
Larry, A slight problem? You just put BIOdiesel into the equation, that's not what we were talking about. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 391 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.231.129.168 Rating: N/A |
"Same story same page, quote from George Morrison, Distributing, Exxon/Mobil Distributor, Columbus, Ohio. "There have been people who got a truck load full of number 2 USDL and had 6 inches of water on the bottom of their fuel tank after delivery". " There is nothing in this statement that shows or even says that number 2 USDL had anything to do with the water or whether or not the water was already in the tank?? | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 142 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: N/A |
George, This months Heavy Duty Trucking is what I have been reading. The issue this month discusses fuel areas that we are facing on the highway today.We are talking about the fuel being used today. I don't want to talk about biodiesel either, but it is mandated in some states right now,(Minnesota), so it is an issue we in the transportation industry have to deal with. One of my friends runs some and he smells like french fries all the time! Gus, I think from the way I read George Morrison's statement, that the insinuation is the water was delivered with the ULSD. Seems like if this man is a distributor and he is being misquoted, that a large national trucking magazine has some serious legal problems. Some of the full page advertisers of HDT this month are Sterling Trucks, Detroit Diesel Genuine Parts, Cenex, Michelin, Alcoa, Lo/Jack, Hendrickson, Delo, Bridgestone, Mack, Caterpillar, Racor, Freightliner, Thermo King and Peterbilt. Go figure. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 143 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: N/A |
George, This months Heavy Duty Trucking is what I have been reading. The issue this month discusses fuel areas that we are facing on the highway today.We are talking about the fuel being used today. I don't want to talk about biodiesel either, but it is mandated in some states right now,(Minnesota), so it is an issue we in the transportation industry have to deal with. One of my friends runs some and he smells like french fries all the time! Gus, I think from the way I read George Morrison's statement, that the insinuation is the water was delivered with the ULSD. Seems like if this man is a distributor and he is being misquoted, that a large national trucking magazine has some serious legal problems. Some of the full page advertisers of HDT this month are Sterling Trucks, Detroit Diesel Genuine Parts, Cenex, Michelin, Alcoa, Lo/Jack, Hendrickson, Delo, Bridgestone, Mack, Caterpillar, Racor, Freightliner, Thermo King and Peterbilt. Go figure. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 570 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Well, I'm glad to see so many folks coming down on the side of patience and reason. Larry, I'm sorry you seem to feel somehow marginalized by my rebuttal of blanket statements you made without supporting facts. But this is exactly how misinformation spreads through a community like wildfire. It's similar to that childhood game of "telephone." I'm not going to stand here and tell you that ULSD is not going to cause some kind of problems, because I don't know. But neither do you. Repeating anecdotal information from a completely non-scientific magazine article in a completely biased trade journal does not actually help anyone -- it just plays into the hands of the fear-mongers. I have no doubt that, as you wrote, you truly believed the articles you read were "based on real science and [were] written with/in the best interest of all trucking operations." Without having a copy of that particular magazine in front of me, I can't tell how much of what was written is well-researched. But I can point out some real inconsistencies even in what you just quoted: "Sulpher is a natural biocide": Well, whoever wrote that does not know even the correct spelling of "sulfur" (or even the accepted variant spelling, "sulphur") so I immediately question their knowledge of chemistry. But, in fact, this statement is wrong, as anyone who has ever noticed a rotten-egg smell during their hot shower can attest. There are, in fact a number of anaerobic bacteria that actually feed on sulfur, and these bacteria, along with trace amounts of sulfur found in some well water, are responsible for the rotten-egg smell coming from your hot water tap. Sulfur becomes harmful to many bacteria when it converts into other compounds through various chemical reactions. I should point out that one of those compounds happens to be sulfuric acid, which is, by the way, a harmful (to your engine) combustion byproduct of fuel containing sulfur. So one benefit of lower-sulfur fuel is actually less sulfuric acid corroding cylinder liners, piston faces, exhaust valves, and the entire exhaust system. In any case, anyone who has suffered a build-up of biomass in their fuel tank will tell you that there are not enough sulfur compounds even in low-sulfur diesel (500 ppm) to kill these microbes. If you have a microbe problem, you need to add a biocide (or polish the fuel, a strategy common in the marine and fixed-engine environments but unheard of in on-road vehicles). "George Morrison, ... Exxon/Mobil Distributor, ... '... people who got a truck load .. of ... USDL [sic] and had 6 inches of water '" OK, first off, an Exxon-Mobil distributor is a wholesale salesman. I've spent some time immersed in the retail fuel business (don't ask, it's a long story), where I worked side-by-side with this individual's customers (called "jobbers"), and I can assure you, most distributors have no qualifications whatsoever to discuss fuel formulation issues. They understand commodities, storage, and P&L. It's possible this particular person has a degree in chemical engineering, but it would also not surprise me to learn that he is only a high-school graduate. Which brings me to the gist of his statement: On what basis does he attribute this to ULSD (not, as he said, USDL -- another "expert" who can't even get his own terminology correct)? Did he keep careful records of, say, 200 truck loads of LSD and 200 truck loads of ULSD, and make an accurate comparison of the amount of water in each truck load? Or did he simply observe ONE truck load that ended up with six inches of water in it and then jump to the conclusion that the ULSD was somehow responsible? I'm willing to bet real money that it is the later. "The Natural Renewable Energy Labratory [sic] did a survey of biodiesel quality last year, collecting samples nationwide. It found that 59 percent failed to meet quality standards" On this one, I'll overlook the misspelling of laboratory on the assumption that it is an editorial error on the part of the magazine, and that the lab itself does know how to spell its own name. As George has already observed, this hasn't a thing to do with the discussion of ULSD. But I will comment anyway, because it is a great example of the insidiousness of these kinds of statements. I have no doubt this statement is true if they made it (I have not looked it up). And, of course, they are part of the US government -- you know, the same government that has mandated cleaner engines and ULSD -- so we have no reason to question them, right? But the number by itself is meaningless, for the simple reasons that (1) It does not tell us how many of those fuel suppliers *claimed* to meet quality standards (it is possible that a much larger percentage of suppliers making this claim could actually demonstrate compliance) and (2) it says nothing about how many suppliers of, for example, regular #2 diesel, meet those same quality standards. 100%? 50%? Journalists (and politicians, regulators, salesmen, and even yours truly) have an uncanny ability to select one or two statements out of an otherwise complete and factual report, and make it sound like the entire report supports whatever position or conclusion they have already drawn (or want you to draw.) An example of this kind of misdirection is "98.3% of cancer patients ate carrots between the ages of 3 and 9. We therefore have a great deal of concern about the possible effects of eating carrots during these formative years." I'm sure you recognize instantly that putting these two statements together is ludicrous -- even if the first one is true. You didn't quote from it directly (as far as I can tell -- again, I don't have a copy), but you cited the cover story, 'NEW FUELS, NEW PROBLEMS' by Deborah Lockridge, Senior Editor. Ms. Lockridge, I am sure, is well-qualified to discuss such matters due to years of experience in the trucking industry, right? Or, perhaps, a degree in some type of fuel-related science? How about her stint as a diesel mechanic? None of the above. Ms. Lockridge holds a Bachelor of Journalism degree (emphasis in magazine writing & editing) from the University of Missouri School of Journalism, where she graduated in 1986. So she has had a 20+ year career working at magazines (though, I admit, a fair number of them were focused on heavy-duty equipment, with occasional coverage of real estate, medicine, parenting, restaurants, and home improvement). I am sure Ms. Lockridge is an intelligent person and can write quite eloquently about these subjects. But, as senior editor of HDT magazine, guess where her loyalties lie? To her advertisers, who ultimately pay her salary. And, as I noted above (and Richard so kindly reinforced), her editorial decisions will be influenced by that, and sometimes the very articles themselves will have been written by the advertisers. Believe me, there is no shortage of anti-ULSD rhetoric available from absolutely every fuel additive vendor in the market. Amusingly, by the way, the web site you provided for the magazine goes directly to the electronic version of the "bingo card" -- direct links to all of the magazine's advertisers. So I am completely unswayed by the references you have just provided. I'd like to say I have a completely open mind about the subject (although it may not seem so from this diatribe), and I am willing to be persuaded in any direction. But I need to see real science, based on real data, provided by unbiased observers. Until then, I will stick to the recommendation of my engine manufacturer, whose vested interest is in reducing warranty claims. I am willing to bet that if and when claims start going up, they will put real engineers on the problem, and make either a formulation recommendation to the refiners or an additive recommendation to fleet and individual operators. And now, I'll get off my soapbox and ask Dennis: how are you coming along troubleshooting the problem that launched this thread, which seems to have gone off on a tangent? -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 751 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Sean - thanks for pointing out the difference between statistical/correlative science and ACTUAL science - sometimes we forget - I have been asking independent mechanics and fleet operators if they have seen any problems with ULSD for the last six months - the only replies I have recieved so far have been attempts to sell me high priced fuel additives - please don't edit my spelling as it is late and I admit to being ignorant ;-) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 571 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 66.82.9.55 Rating: N/A |
Sorry about the spelling nit-picking. I don't have a problem when anyone here misspells a word or two (although I try to point it out if it is a subject that someone might try to do further research on, say with Google, as having the proper spelling of a term will help in that research). But when it is a magazine editor or so-called technical expert making the mistake, I have less forgiveness. It's hard to take an "expert" seriously when they can't even spell the terms supposedly within their expertise. I suppose the mistakes I was harping on in my last post might have been transcription errors by Larry, in which case I apologize if I sounded like I was criticizing Larry's spelling or typing. I always imagine these quotes to be cut-and-pasted from some on-line source, in which case the errors are in the original text and are inexcusable, especially in this day and age of automatic spell-checkers. And, as with your experience, I have not found anyone running ULSD (which, in some markets, has been the only fuel available for quite some time) with any real substantive reports of trouble. However, these sorts of fuel issues often occur on a microscopic level and it can take years before problems start showing up in injectors, pump seals, valve guides and who-knows-what. Anyone who has been around a while remembers the last O-ring debacle, and those of us who spent time in CA remember the MTBE debacle. So I guess, like many, I expect some sort of problem to crop up that will affect at least some percentage of engines at some point, and likely older engines will be more affected than newer ones. (Buna-N pump seals come to mind as a possible problem area due to reduced aromatic content of ULSD). But I am waiting to see how the statistics start to shape up before I go into a tizzy about replacing my injector pump seals. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| James Robinson (Jjrbus)
Registered Member Username: Jjrbus Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.1.180.218 Rating: |
I appreciate the time and effort people have put in this thread, it is very informative. Keep up the good work. I will continue to use the word algae, for whatever it is that grows in fuel. Becuse even wrong, it is a commonly accepted term. Nothing more frustrating that trying to look something up, like cruise control, and finding it under speed stabilizer or some such term. 6 inch of water in the tank? that one is obvious. Joe six pack (who has lately developed a mild crack adiction)takes a load of liquid gold from the refinery pulls in an alley and draws off six inch of diesel. Replaceing it with 6 inch of water. What happened to Dennis? It is always nice to know the outcome. Know how to spell. Thank a teacher Know how to spell in english. Thank a soldier Got a degree or 2. Thank your parents | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.108.62 Rating: |
"..first off, an Exxon-Mobil distributor is a wholesale salesman...... ..it would also not surprise me to learn that he is only a high-school graduate... " <sniff> all those without a doctorate, please join me in a moment of silence.... </sniff> What this banter regarding the inaccuracies of the "trade publications" boils down to, is simple..... Some prefer to trust the words of those that make Billion$ selling their product, versus those that make only millions selling stories... I wonder which entrepreneur stands to lose more? When the oil company lies, do we stop buying their product? Or do we more quickly stop buying publications that are filled with nonsensical half-truths? You're a wonderful writer Sean! But some of the words -can- be trying to one's common sense. Ignoring the "lowest common denominator" can be more costly, than stepping outside the corporate box long enough to hear if the sky is indeed rattling....... "Oil, Pharmaceuticals, and Insurance - Oh My" (Johnny the Poo) (or more simply: ULSD, Vioxx, and No-Fault - oh my) | ||
| clark lane (Bus05eagle)
Registered Member Username: Bus05eagle Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 74.33.52.83 Rating: N/A |
Kyle,i don't see where that answered the water seperation i retired from a products pipe line co in Houston and we never used water and all jet fuel going into Bush Intl or Hobby was pigged if any thing was found in the fuel you bought it you buy 75000 barrels or 3,150,000 gals it takes some big bucks.I talked to a friend of mine that works for Colonial and he said it up to the customer about the pigging it adds .83 cents to a barrel he said most of the people go with the buy out of the first 3000 to 8000 gal on jet fuel then is sold to others and winds back up in the system in one form or the other | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 572 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.47 Rating: N/A |
John, I freely admit to having a "credentials" bias. Probably, you do also, but we all have a different place where we draw the line. For example, I'm betting few people on this forum would board a newly built roller coaster, or airplane, or elevator, if they knew that the "engineer" who designed those items did not even finish college, let alone complete all the rigorous requirements to become a Professional Engineer. Likewise, I don't expect my plumber to be a rocket scientist, but I expect that he or she has at least had enough experience to understand the plumbing code, correct pipe sizing, etc. So call me a credentials snob, but when an article in a trade publication tries to take on an authoritative "scientific" tone about a highly technical subject, I think they need to solicit the opinions of actual experts in the field. And while I do know that it is possible to develop expertise through means other than formal education, such as a career spent working with a particular technology, that does not appear to be the case here. Long-winded way of saying that I respect people of all education levels, but if you are going to present yourself as some kind of expert, especially in a printed publication that circulates to many thousands of readers, then you ought to have some credentials that demonstrate you know whereof you speak. It seems I'm often apologizing for something, so I will once again apologize here if anyone without a college education was offended by my remark. That was not my intent. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 145 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.43.3 Rating: N/A |
__. It appears to me that nobody here actually knows George Morrison -- well, let's correct that, at least one person here does. __. I've worked with George on an occasional basis for the past 20 years. He's a "freelance" consulting tribologist. He will work for "Big Oil" if they pay him but most of his work is arranging "forensic" tribology for trucking companies, large fleets, insurance companies. If you have a fleet of 300 Cummins engines and 70 of them have had injector pump failures, George is the guy that you call. Very little of his work is outside diesel lubrication and fuels but when it comes to diesel technology, he knows his stuff ... maybe better than anyone else in the country. __. He's been doing this kind of work for ~35 years. He's been through all the "fuel wars" and is the last to counsel "jumping on anecdotal data"; in fact, exactly the opposite -- George's entire method of operation is to collect data scientifically and work out solidly based investigations that will resolve the problem, well and finally. If George says that he's seeing the beginning of a problem, you can bet your trousers that I'm going to be keeping alert for symptoms of the problem that he's related. (I'm particularly interested in this subject because I drive a diesel car day-to-day. The VW diesel engine was designed to run on 51 cetane (that's about 10 points higher than US diesel) that's in the ULSD range. So far, it's been reported that cars run on ULSD are putting out much less soot; from visible soot in the exhaust, to soot buildup around EGR systems, and soot found in oil at Used Oil Analysis. Most people running Delvac-1 oil (VW requires the use of 5W-40 synthetic oil) were finding that the oil was perfectly good in all measureable criteria at 12-14000 miles -- *except* the soot loadings were starting to exceed allowable limits and were affecting other properties of the oil. Recently reported UOA's on Delvac-1 (and it's twin "Mobil 1 Turbo-Diesel-Truck 5W-40, the same stuff marketed for Wawmott discount selling) at 20K using ULSD have shown soot level and remaining oil protection properties better than the same oil at 12-14K with LSD. So, I'm very positive on ULSD. But it's been acknowledged throughout the entire EPA rule setting process that ULSD will give lower lubricity protections (as shown on the ASTM ball wear-scar test -- a test that Bosch says correlates well to fuel injector system lubrication ... and I'd expect US fuel system manufacturers to agree with this) and the lowered aromatic content may cause reactions, some small and some great with seals, gaskets, and other elastomers. So, it's always been a "watch carefully" area. People like George are watching carefully and if the scientifically collected real-world data says that microbial problems are more common with ULSD, I'm going to be sure that I have some good treatment additive and some spare fuel filters when I travel. How am I going to find out what's the best fuel treatment? Well, the first thing that I'm going to do is ask George Morrison, he'll know better than anybody.) PS. Sorry if this doesn't meet anyone's idea of proper spelling or grammar. Please forget the typos and look at the technical content. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 573 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.47 Rating: N/A |
Bruce, Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected. It was presumptuous of me to call into question any specific individual's qualifications without having the facts. (I believe this is called "hoist by one's own petard.") The information you provided was enough for me to look him up -- he is a lubrication engineer. And, apparently, his Exxon/Mobil distributorship is in the lube oil business, not the fuel business. (Here is his web site: http://avlube.com/). All of which makes me suspicious that his quote in the named article above was taken out of context. I am at a disadvantage, as I said, because I do not have a copy of the article here (and it does not appear to be available on-line). -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com [Edited to add George's web site.] (Message edited by sean on June 30, 2007) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 345 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.34.65 Rating: |
Clarke, that link shows how colonial is currently managing products in their pipelines. As to what I was shown years ago about using water slugs to seperate products in a pipeline, at this point it doesn't matter. Apparantly water slugs haven't been used in a while & those products that were seperated by water aren't likely to be showing up in any fuel station.  As to proper spelling, a few missed words are one thing, especially if it is a word you don't often use. However, bad grammar/sentence structure makes it hard to understand the writer & that tends to undermine their credibility when you are strugling to comprehend what they are trying to say. ymmv | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 144 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.8 Rating: N/A |
Well, since I'm the only one with a copy of the story I don't see any reason to stop now! Here is a quote from Dr. Morrison on page 48. The spelling errors are mine by choice, I'm not an engineer and have low standards! "Morrison,who also does a lot of fuel testing at AV Lubricants, explains that biodiesel is a naturally occurring ester, and esters attract water". "We have an ester compressor oil for use in referigeration systems. It loves water so much, if you pour it more than twice, it will have picked up enough moisture from the air to make it unusable," he says. "Thats what esters are like. Thats what biodiesel is. You've got to keep water out of biodiesel or you will have microbes just crawling out of the tank". So, Shaun, this topic started, "Bad Fuel". It was my intention to share information. There are many ways to get bad fuel. Last winter I advised someone that I would just run 5 year old fuel. Now I still think the 5 year old stuff may be ok but there is no way I would advise anyone to use 5 year old ULSD or B2 thru B20 based on the understand I have of esters. So, after reading this series of articles I tried to share some info about water in fuel. Someone had posted plugged filters and I said that with warm weather their situation could just be the tip if the iceberg depending what fuel we are all letting set in our coaches. Lots have probably not burned 500 gallons in the last 6 months. Some have not used any. I don't sell additives, I'm in the trucking business. My spelling and grammar level does not have a high standard because most of my competition is from Pakistan, Russia, India, and now Africa. Well, I'm off to buy some new Brunswick Centennial balls for my pool table! | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.61.96.82 Rating: N/A |
So Larry, is the pool table in the main salon or on a roll out in one of the bays? | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 794 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 97.101.2.69 Rating: N/A |
Guys, Sean is on a roll, There's nothing that you can quote, say or imagine that will sway him one bit. He is one of the most "technically" strict people out there. The bottom line is if you can't absolutely prove something, Don't bother trying, You will not get very far without a battle for evidence. The bottom line is that the suppliers of motor fuels will tell you anything and are as bad or worse than the snake oil salesmen. It's a money game regardless of whether your cummins or detroit eats injectors or pumps as a result of a poorly thought through government mandate. You as the consumer will bear the cost of their mistakes and poor chemistry. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 420 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.189 Rating: |
     Visual evidence of fuel bugs! (Message edited by john_mc9 on June 30, 2007) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 615 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
John, Harbor Freight sells an electronic fly swatter. Maybe if you run your fuel through it as you fill. With that much water in the fuel, maybe you could put in a separater and filter and put it in the fresh water tank. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 795 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 97.101.2.69 Rating: N/A |
Why not a fuel centrifuge like the marine systems have? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 423 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.185 Rating: N/A |
Naww... Don't want all them Al-gee bugs gettin' dizzy and pukin' in the fuel... | ||
| Norm Edlebeck (Bandleader)
Registered Member Username: Bandleader Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 76.17.179.197 Rating: N/A |
My daughter & family are seriously thinking of moving to Canada permanently. With the rest of the world hateing our guts, this is one more thing to put on the plus side of the equation. If our government don't kill us first, terrorists from all over the world will. No one hates Canada, right I@n ???? Norm Edlebeck | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 616 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.117.21 Rating: N/A |
Do you speak French or English? Where are you going to live in Canada. In US it's English or Spanish, but that will change to all Spanish in a couple of more years the way things are going. If the rest of the world hates our guts, maybe they can start to select other countries to live in. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 215 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.129 Rating: N/A |
Norm, Has your daughter done a serious cost of living comparison between North and South of the border? My parents were married in B.C, and my mother was the only one of seven to move South. So I have many Aunts & Uncles up there, along with so many cousins I can't count. I would also suggest a LONG look at the LONG wait for national health care, and the inability to choose your own Doctor. Then look at the border crossing between Tsawwassen and Pt. Roberts Wa. (90% percent of the cars are Canucks driving over to buy US gas, in spite of the exchange rate.) The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence! I like it up there, I'm not knocking Canada at all, just be aware. George | ||
| Norm Edlebeck (Bandleader)
Registered Member Username: Bandleader Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 76.17.179.197 Rating: N/A |
Thanks George for your input. Personally, I have not checked out all the things my daughter has mentioned, and I'm not totally sure SHE even has, although I know she's paying out over $400 a month for day-care for her 2 girls 4 & 5 yrs old. As you said, the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Yes, before I would do something this drastic, I would check all these issues out thoroughly. I guess the right thing to do is get involved in changing things here in the US back to what our Republic & Constitution REALLY originally meant, instead of the mass corruption we have that is escalating at an alarming rate. About 20 yrs ago, my band was invited to play (perform) at an International Polka Fest in Austria. We did this 5 consecutive yrs in a row and were in Kitzbuehl Austria in the fall each year. I know that at least on one occasion, elections were held when we were there. First of all, they held their elections on a Sunday, so no one had an excuse NOT to vote because of work. Secondly, I believe, and don't quote me on this, that if you were an elegible voter and didn't vote, you were fined in some manner. Maybe that's what we need to get people to get more involved & check out the "bozos" (as Lee Iacccoca calls our elected officials in his new book - Where Have All The Leaders Gone) before putting them in office. And I'm not sure of the exact figures, but seems to me I recently read that less than 50% of elligible voters vote in any given election, then they are the first ones to complain when these thugs are leading us down the path of self destruction. Just my 4 cents worth. Food for thought. I'm sorry for leading this thread completely off the original subject. I apologize. Norm | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.91.107.56 Rating: N/A |
Err ... Norm you mean ... "unto the REPUBLIC for which it stands" ... no "democratic" there? - unfortunately you have read the CONSTITUTION and probably don't listen to the correct side - the IRAQI'S had a bigger voter turnout than WE did in the last election - Kinda makes you wonder who values freedom more - NM | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 392 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.34 Rating: |
Larry, Your first post was "ULSD attracts water." Now you're talking about lub oil and biodiesel?? Did I miss something here? One of the main problems with trade magazines is that many of their articles suffer from too much "insinuation". They are in the business to make money and so they have to keep advertisers happy. I have no doubt that many if not most of their articles are written by advertisers. Which brings me to Sean. Like him, I seldom take written articles at face value unless there is at least an attempt to qualify statements made as fact. I've been around this old world too long to believe something just because it is written. There are too many BS artists armed with word processors who do not hesitate to play loose with the facts. I consider trade magazines to be at the bottom of the list for credibility. One thing I greatly admire about Sean is that when he is wrong or says something he shouldn't have he will admit it. Too many other posters start attacking Sean or making fun of him instead of admitting they possibly could have made an error. If you are a lazy speller (this includes me) just scan or copy things written by others, then any errors are theirs! Another thing too many writers depend on is the infamous spell checker, the very worst thing you can use if you happen to use the wrong word spelled correctly! Just because some guy says he is an expert doesn't mean you have to believe him. The dig at Pakistan, Russia, India, and Africa really had no place here. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 216 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.129 Rating: N/A |
Gus, In my opinion, you are exactly right! On another subject, when I asked the poster for an explanation, I got: "When you don't understand something, you ask the whole board to explain it to you." Obviously HE couldn't back up what he said, so he chose an offense as his defense. Needless to say, he STILL hasn't explained, and I'm NOT holding my breath. If you missed something, I did too! A couple of the air conditioning trade magazines will publish almost anything somebody sends them, without verification. Please continue to put effort into your posts, as it is appreciated! George |
