| Author |
Message |
GeorgeMyers (12.85.14.186)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 4:34 pm: | |
Over the years I have heard mention of two systems for coaches that I have never seen and can not find any detailed information on. These are the alcohol injector for the air brake system to prevent freezing and an either injector to help start the engine. I tried unsuccessfully to find something on the net. Can anyone describe their operation in detail or supply a site that tells about them, how they are used, brands, pros and cons, how much they cost, where to get one, etc.
George Myers |
MRbus (152.163.205.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 5:36 pm: | |
Hi George,
The alcohol injectors were simply a glass jar with a vacuum/air line connected to the air system. The proceedure was to syphon the alcohol into the compressed air flow where it would dilute the water formed by condensation. Therefore preventing air line freeze up. The ether injector was a mounting that would hold an aresol can of starting fluid. It was accuated by the driver by pulling on a choke type cable that would press a handle down on the aresol can spraying the starting fluid through a i/4 inch hose connected directly into the intake manifold.
The alcohol injectors were better than nothing for people who did not follow the steps of draining their air tanks while the unit was warm. With the introduction of air/dryers, the alcohol injectors went by the way side. There is nothing better on the market today than a good air dryer. The modern air dryer will discharge any moisture buildup every time the compressor cycles, they even have a 12 volt heater in the bottom of the dryer so they work even up here in the North Country.
Most owners did away with the ether injector system due to it's misuse. Some drivers thought it was a "passing gear", they would trigger the ether injector to get a little more power out of the old bus or truck. Needless to say it was very hard on engines. I guess if you were operating it on your own vehicle it may be handy, but if ether is required, I have found it easier to start the bus from the rear, and you can control how much spray you induce. I have spent many years dealing with "cold" related problems, and we have specified air/dryers on all equipment purchased since about 1980. We took delivery of one bus that came equipped with the ether starting system, and removed it during the acceptance check out.
If you feel you want one, I may still have that one laying around the shop somewhere, or I can find the source with a little digging.
Let me know. Gus Haag |
FAST FRED (209.26.87.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 5:40 pm: | |
George ,
There is an alcohol jar installed on most/GM 4106.
At least its on mine (ex Carry Coach NYC)and most I have seen up north.
The latest engines figure their water rewmoval , plus the multiple tank method , makes the Alcohol redundant.
I"M very supprised that no company has come up with an "Air System Conditioner" that could be fed in with the alcohol system.
"Cleanse your Check valves and tripples the life of rubber brake Diaphrams!!" $19.95 a quart!
There are so many Snake oil ,Slick 50 , and other additives sold to gulable folk , that its shocking no one has cashed in.
TO operate the alcohol system it gets filled with Brake Alcohol from NAPA ,
and the rest is automatic, it just gets sucked in .
Don't fill the jar in warm weather.
The remote Ether is an dealerOPTION on many engines , but you will have to have the local dealer find the parts numbers for the kits.
Again it is only spec'ed on engines used in the real cold.
FAST FRED |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (63.15.63.18)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 7:24 pm: | |
Hi George:
Over the years I have a good deal of experience with the alcohol kits, but not the either kits.
Until we stopped operating buses last Fall & up until the end, my GM Suburbans had alcohol kits on them. I personally like them as they have no moving parts & last forever and they successfully protected the air systems on the coaches that they were installed on. On our MCI's we would faithfully replace the dessicant cartridge before each winter, reman the purge valve & heater assy. & off they would go without problems (Hopefully)!!
As we drained our air tanks weekly on the GM's it was an easier & less expensive "Preventive Maintenance" cost on the GM's rather than on the MCI's.
Just my perspective on this issue & I Hope it HELPS!!
LUKE at US COACH |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.27.89.59)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 10:26 pm: | |
I've never used it, but my 81 Prevost has an ether injector mounted on the driver'left. It has a coverguard on the switch to prevent accidental use and gives a single measured shot from a spray canister. I also have an Espar heater and an electric heater to preheat the engine so I never use ether. |
bobm (152.163.197.58)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 11:05 pm: | |
NAPA sells a solenoid valve operated cold start injection system. starting fluid(not really ether) comes in a cylinder similar to propane torch cylinders screws into the valve. push a button installed near the drivers seat, usually 2 seconds max, and cold starts are easy. saves starter wear and the starting fluid contains upper cylinder lubricants. i use mine all the time for cold starts a cylinder lasts me more than a year. im in new mexico and camping in the summer can be cold and often over 7500 ft high. saves me a lot of cranking time. |
Joe Laird (Joelaird) (205.188.200.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 11:06 pm: | |
My Eagle came with the alcohol injection to the air brake system and I installed the ether injection kit.
I had a valve freeze up on the bus once before I started using the alcohol system. Now I fill it when I encounter really cold weather and have never had another freeze up. I also have automatic tank drains. It also cleans out the airlines of the gunk that got there before I changed the compressor. I've never had a drain stick open and attribute that to the alcohol. My Eagle never had a air drier. It does have a water separator.
The ether injection kit was great when I had the 8V71N on cold starts. I had it over 4 years and decided the cannister needed changing. I doubt it was empty as the new one and the old one weighed the same. I've never used it with the new 8V92T, but am sure it still works fine. I think it gives a half-second shot when the switch is pushed. It will not give another shot for some time, but I don't remember what. If it is important I could look it up. I plumbed it into the air intake between the filter and the turbo.
Hope this helps, Joe Laird |
Joe Laird (Joelaird) (205.188.200.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 11:17 pm: | |
Well George, after I posted I realized I hadn't answered the questions and the *%#@ thing won't let me edit.
I don't know where to get the alcohol setup but truck stops in cold places sell the alcohol so they should know.
I got the ether injection from a truck parts house in Nashville. Ask at one in the cold country or Email me and I will look up the manufacturer. Seems it was about $100.
Had I known you were interested, you could have looked at both systems in Laughlin.
I like both systems.
Good Luck, Joe |
R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 11:31 pm: | |
Bobm..where are you in NM..I'm in Las Cruces..
RCB |
Ray C (142.165.92.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 12:28 am: | |
George, my bus operated in Canada and has both systems on it.
For alcohol information go to the Bendix site where you downloaded the air brake manual and get file A-E.pdf
Most diesel farm tractors here come with a starting fluid dispenser, they use an electric solenoid and are plumbed into the intake manifold.
You may be doing an internet search for ether and not coming up with the results you want. Try "starting fluid" I did a Google search and came up with 420K results. The product is always labeled as starting fluid and not ether as most contain a lubricant and other chemicals today. |
TomNPat (63.20.235.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 1:08 am: | |
George,
You might want to go to a John Deere Dealership in your area and ask to see the ether setup on one of their tractors. Might be a lot cheaper than one specifically for a coach.
Saw something once that required you to put a pill like object into what appeared to be on old oiler cup. I think my wrench and can are better when needed.
Bought alcohol while in Kansas in December since I was sure NJT would have dryer units. Still haven't found it.
Tom |
Don KS/TX (63.157.179.120)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 6:05 am: | |
My Kenworth came with an electric solenoid operated ether injector, I thought that was really nice to be able to sit in the warm cab and push the button to do a cold start on a super cold morning. I heard so many horror stories about them, I disconnected it very soon thereafter. A slight malfunction allowing full ether during a hard pull, and you are shopping for a new engine. If the button sticks on the can in my hand, I have some alternatives to avoid such a problem.
My bus has the little "pill" system cup, I thought the pellets were no longer available, can anyone confirm this? I squirmed at the 2 second squirt mentioned above, I would never be that bold. For my bus, about a second or less is max. |
GeorgeMyers (12.85.14.111)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 9:00 am: | |
Thanks folks for the information. I have been around coaches since 1967 and have never seen either one of these systems, but I have heard about them many times. It sort of makes you feel kinda dumb when everyone else knows about something and you don't.
Thanks again
George Myers |
Jim Stacy (32.101.44.148)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 9:56 pm: | |
George,
My ether injection system is made by Zero Start. Bought it at a truck supply. Pressure tank mounts by engine, connects by small nylon line to a very tiny orifice in pipe from turbo to blower. Electrically operated valve, controlled by dash push button. I use an air dryer rather than the alcohol. I have seen a bus air system winterized by opening plumbing lines and pouring alcohol into several tanks.
Jim Stacy |