| Author | Message | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.212.23.160 Rating: N/A |
Everybody told me:Don't use the Bubble type of insulation in your conversion it won't work, it's no good, we'll what a bunch of crap, get the right brand! I bought 5 rolls of Bubble type insulation with backing so we could put it directly against the wall (http://www.radiant-technology.com/default.htm). I was told don't put in large windows (we put in 8 as big as the original ones), And, in the summer we can't run both Carrier hc/lp roof airs, it will freeze us out. In the winter, one end table heater from Solar Comfort (http://www.suncloud.com/) completely heats the front of the bus (NO DRAFTS) and a small space heater in the bedroom must be kept turned way down or it gets to hot in the room. I gave both of their websites for anybody that's interested, I don't get anything in return other than they work great! I understand the look alike heater from other co.'s, don't work, even though they look like they're the same? I bought our Solar Comfort for $400.00 including shipping from one of their dealers. Also, I decided to install a Incinolet Electric Toilet and everybody (except one person on the board) said don't do it you'll be sorry. Well, Wrong again, we put one in and it's the greatest toilet system ever, no stinky, dirty, gross black water tank. In our previous 4 bus conversions I always hated the black water system. No stove, we bought independent electric burners that can be used anywhere they're needed, in the kitchen, out doors, etc., they're fast as gas, efficient and easy to move around(around 5 lbs each). I just want to point out that a lot of people on this and other boards make statements and/or assumptions and they don't know what they're talking about, they never tried new things. They're from the old schools and they don't want to learn new things! I've included a link to our bus/conversion incase anybody is interested in seeing the conversion as it is taking place: http://homepage.mac.com/insuranceman/PhotoAlbum6.html We're living in it as we continue to do the outside and in frame the motor? I hope this helps somebody else with their conversion, if you have any questions please send me an e-mail and I'll try to answer whatever I can, without an uninformed biased opinion. fn1@mac.com | ||
| Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member Username: Dreamscape Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.40.222.139 Rating: N/A |
Fred, Very nice job. I liked the photo with Rotella in the closet. Hey it worked didn't it. One question, what's an electric toilet? You sound very happy with your work, that is so good to hear. You should be proud. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 201 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.62.149 Rating: N/A |
Fred,i am glad all of your ideas worked for you.now if the friend you have will just get off his butt and help with the inframe you will be good to go | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 703 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 70.221.194.233 Rating: N/A |
Hey Freddie, don't sweat it! I've been there and heard it all and my bus has come along just fine, doing a lot of things the way most said couldn't be done! At first it bothered me and had me wondering. After a while, I found out more about who it was that thought they knew everything and just considered the source/s. It usually turned out to be those that only wished they had a bus or had one a long time ago. My bus is far from perfect but I learned that if YOUR happy with it, and it works, good deal! If it doesn't, the cost to fix it or replace it is incurred by only you and the know it alls, absolutely nothing! Keep doing it YOUR way and the end results will allow you to have bragging rights over the others! Ace... aka black sheep of bus conversions | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.110.47.183 Rating: N/A |
Yeah! I want to know more about this electric toilet too! Nice progress Great pics! I love seeing how other people put their bus together. Lots of good ideas there. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1118 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.18.119 Rating: N/A |
Good job. Nothing new comes from following the old ways. Be brave, go where no one dares go. Buck convention. Thank you for boldly sharing! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Registered Member Username: Chucks Post Number: 1172 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.3.120.1 Rating: N/A |
Yup, boots, shirts and motor oil in the closet. What else ya need? ;) BTW, there's one other thing you did that everyone says you can't do...but I'm not about to say what it is. LOL I first heard of Radiant Technology from Nick Russell, publisher of the Gypsy Journal. Since I'm in Dallas, I drove over there a couple of years ago. Most of their business is for the high end RVs, and they have a lot of cool stuff there. I used their product on a part of my ceiling, but decided it was too ex$pen$ive for my blood. Your conversion looks great, but why oh why are you selling it just when you're almost done?! | ||
| Bart Duncan (Bartman)
Registered Member Username: Bartman Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 68.185.135.211 Rating: N/A |
Hey guys - here's some info on the electric toilets sounds good to me as i'm just about ready to destroy the onboard toilet in my Prevost! No water toilet "biolet" 1-800-5-biolet -sounds like a composting toilet. also envirolet 1-800-387-5126 and the electric version - - incinolet - turns waste into ash!!! www.incinolet.com | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.110.47.183 Rating: N/A |
That is amazing! | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.197.246.104 Rating: N/A |
I hope I'm not parked next to you when you start burning your ****, kinda like lightning hitting the outhouse! lol | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.212.77.158 Rating: N/A |
I'm glad you all liked the pictures and if my friend would get off his butt and help with the in-frame well, I wouldn't have to carry all the Rotella! The Incinolet toilet doesn't have an outhouse odor, when it starts up it has the sent of burning paper, next to what a black water system smells like, well the neighbors can still eat breakfast (no what I mean)? I'm thinking about selling it to do a larger conversion but, I don't think I'm going to go through it again, so we'll probably keep what we have and continue on! I set the website up as a sale site before we were so far along, I'll change it thanks for reminding me. And Chuck, the cords work great they're better than the old ways and safer too! | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 311 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Fred, The great thing about this hobby is that you CAN do it your way! The great thing about this board is that you can learn from the experience of others. Many of us will admit our mistakes, and although it is obvious from your post that you don't think so, many of us know what we're talking about. Now, a portable electric burner is also known as a hot plate, and you are right about efficiency, electrtic resistance heat is always 100% efficient. Everybody gets 3,412 BTU per kilowatt of electricity, and if you are hooked up to a 50 amp shore connection, you can run a couple of these just fine. If you are trying to run them off an inverter and batteries, you will either need a HUGE battery bank, or you won't be able to boil two pots of water without a recharge. PG&E is now charging essentially $0.20 per kilowatt hour, and a gallon of propane contains 94,000 BTU, so when you divide the BTU content of a gallon of propane by the BTU content of a Kilowatt hour, you get a requirement of just over 28 KWH to produce 94,600 BTU. Now, lets charge $2.50 a gallon for propane, and your electric cost would be $5.60, making propane heat less than half the cost! Next, lots of busses have two 40,000 BTU furnaces, to get the heat of one will require almost 12KW. Watts=Amps times Volts, so you would need almost 100 amps of 120 Volts AC to produce the heat of one furnace. Now, the railroad I work for bought about 500 locomotives equipped with Incinolet brand electric toilets in the early 70's. The smell of burning poop was so bad that we would leave the cab of the lead locomotive while moving, and walk back to a trailing unit to use the facilities, rain or shine, rather than endure the smell. You also don't mention your toilet's electrical requirements! I'm waiting for an answer to Chuck's question also!! | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.212.77.158 Rating: N/A |
Well George, Your figures are impressive, if you like wet, unsafe heat. Propane eats oxygen, and Propane isn't certified for use in an RV that I'm aware of (maybe I'm wrong here), the heat from the Solar Comfort is safe, and has almost no difference in degrees between the ceiling and the floor and it is approved for Zero clearance and, in our unit it works and it only uses 1500 watts. For us safety is more important than the cost. If I was cost conscience I wouldn't be doing a bus conversion, I'd have an old used RV it's a lot cheaper. As far as the electric burner, we don't use a hot plate, maybe you're not up to date but there are new types of portable burners available today. Ours is a halogen burner that heats as fast as gas to over 800 degrees,(we also have many other modern kitchen appliances for cooking that are all portable) also available are conduction burners that only transfer heat when they have a metal pan on them, but most people prefer a stove, I just said we don't. The toilet just took it's own circuit breaker (20 amp) and we haven't had a problem with it ever drawing to much power. If you want to know more about the electric requirements, etc., for the toilet look at their website I gave a link to it. If you want to smell burning poop, I'm sure if you get an electric toilet from the 70's, (or if it's not maintained and cleaned on a regular basis) then you will smell it? I never had another toilet in a motor-home/conversion that didn't smell like crap. Why would you want to be so educated, and keep referring to something from the 70's in 2007, without more specifics on how it (they) were maintained, etc.? And please stop ass u ming what I think, I never said I didn't think people don't admit their mistakes, you did? I like seeing all the comments on this board, some people are just stuck in the old ways, that's their choice and they're allowed. What answer to Chucks question would you like, I guess you didn't like my answer? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1343 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.166.160 Rating: N/A |
Fred - Hey, good for you! I see by the dashboard pic that you've got one of the air-operated front doors, not manual. The manual operation on the "A" series was an absolute PITA!! Nice work on the rest of the coach, too. I like the white cabinetry - helps brighten up the interior. And the pocket-door rear walk-in closet is a neat idea, also! FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| James Robinson (Jjrbus)
Registered Member Username: Jjrbus Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 68.242.226.11 Rating: N/A |
Ditto on walking to the second locomotive, those electric toilets were horrible. Glad to hear they have improved them. I have big windows also, I really like them. I looked into useing bubble wrap what I found out was bubble wrap may allow moisture to collect in the walls. That can cause corrosion on the aluminum, rot on the interior walls and possibly mold to grow in walls, some of which can be toxic. But this will not show up for a few years. Other than that its a great idea. If you live in an arid area, it will probobly not be a problem, I spend too much time in FL to take a chance. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.189.77 Rating: N/A |
Enjoyed seeing the idea about the kitchen as a unit with wide counters and the sink off the to side. Are those built in heat vents in the bottom cabinets I see? Burnt poop smell or not, over 1500 for a toilet is a bit over the top for me. Nice looking refrigerator though. How is the freezer on that? Does it draw a lot of current? I was thinking the other day about using pvc pipe in the original roof frame holes to run some electrical. Wondering what would happen if you ran an entire pipe across in the idea you could add/remove wiring later.[?] What I am learning is everyone has a different view of what their ideal bus is and what works for them. There are certainly common practices that seem to work -- and don't work. I'm glad we even have a board like this find some of this stuff out. There are always trade-offs. With the three golden factors: Time.-- Space. and -- Money. Right or wrong - it seems there is always something to learn. Thanks for posting the photos. It's good to see what other people are doing. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 115 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.81 Rating: N/A |
DO it "YOUR WAY" is the first key to having a conversion that suits YOUR life style . But many folks have variables that others don't have. Big glass in FL or AZ may mean hiding blacked out behind curtains , where in MI with an awning its no sweat. Winter , talk to Ian to see if an electric heater will do much in 25F below ZERO , in over freezing temps FL for the winter its great. The real question is weather the coach can ever (should the builder wish to) boondock with out a 24/7 noisemaker. What is a great coach to one builder could be an abject failure to a converter with DIFFERENT requirements. One reason it takes so long to sell a coach ,everyones "MY WAY" is different. FF | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 382 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.12.101.250 Rating: N/A |
faster freddie, Forgive me if I missed it, but what are you using for electrical wire & what gauge? Also do you have a link for the halogen burner & the others you mentioned? That would be helpfull to lots of us I'm sure! I'm glad your elec toilet is working for you. But I wonder what I'm doing wrong as my toilet/ black tank only has a musty odor (we use no chemicals & don't rinse it out when we dump - I usually leave some 'fluid' behind). Now, the grey tank is another story all together - phew! | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Registered Member Username: Chucks Post Number: 1173 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.240.109.138 Rating: N/A |
Kyle - "And Chuck, the cords work great they're better than the old ways and safer too!" and I'll put my money on mostly 12 & some 10. Can you get the riddle? (Message edited by chucks on December 08, 2007) | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.62.149 Rating: N/A |
Kyle i think Fred is talking about a induction not conduction cooktop.My wife has one and loves it will not heat without a metal pot on it. take the pot off and its cool, boils water in in seconds,uses little power, and a 1930's technology that has come back.and the wiring like he used I have seen in Lowes and electrial suppy houses in several different gauges in rolls.I read some where that Fred Hobie in FL uses this type wiring in his conversions FWIW (Message edited by luvrbus on December 08, 2007) (Message edited by luvrbus on December 08, 2007) (Message edited by luvrbus on December 08, 2007) | ||
| john penzotti (Travelingfools)
Registered Member Username: Travelingfools Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 74.78.165.186 Rating: N/A |
Fred, Re: the end table heater from Solar Comfort, does it have a btu rating ? Also what outside temp are we talking for that heater to work. Also, in looking at the website for the insulation, I couldn't get the links to work. Can you expand a little on what the insulation is and its cost. Did you also use it on the roof or just the walls ? | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.213.212.85 Rating: N/A |
I'll try to answer your questions here for what I know and what I don't know. The Solar Comfort is rated to be a stand alone heating system for up to 500 sq, ft. When I talked to the company they told me it would work as secondary heating up to 800 sq, ft. They also told me it would work as primary heat up to 500 sq, ft. Being a bus is under 350 sq ft, I thought we'd give it a try. So far it's only been down to around 25F or so, and it has been working better than I expected. It doesn't run all the time, it doesn't stay on continuously. As far as will it work in -25F, I really don't know. But they will sell one with a 30 day(?) return minus the shipping? Also, please understand this is not a space heater, the Solar Comfort unit weighs around 65 lbs. The BTU rating is only around 5200 but it doesn't work like an average heater/furnace. If you look at their website it doesn't have a hard blowing fan, the heat blows out gently, attaches to the water molecules in the air and travels on them. The only problem I see is the heat won't go through a door way (bathroom), if it did, I think it would heat the whole bus and we wouldn't need a small heater at night in the bedroom. As for the large windows, we live in Nevada it's very hot here in the summer and we didn't have any problem with them in June but, we do use aluminum window bubble wrap in most of the windows in the high heat. We like the large windows for the views, but I'm sure many people would rather have different windows for there conversion. I had Peninsula Glass build the windows (all sliders, limo tint and double pane). The double pane doesn't have much of an R factor but the tint helps in the summer. We went to Florida a few years ago and Fred Hobe showed me that extension cords with the ends tined made good wiring. When we did the wiring, I hired a retired electrician to do the work, when I first told him I wanted to use a type of extension cord he said he didn't think it would work. When we bought highly rated insulated outdoor cords, he admitted this was a better and cheaper way to go (100 foot 12/3 heavy duty construction cords $34.00 at Costco & Sam's Club). The a/c units have 10 ga and the smallest size elsewhere is 12 ga. Also we have many dedicated circuits put in along with a total bus, Progressive surge protector that reads all the various electric draw, etc.. The home refrig only is drawing around 1 amp (even at start up)and it works great. The bottom freezer is always cold enough to even freeze ice cream rock hard. When we're on the road for 8 hours or more when we open the refrig it's still cold and the freezer is still frozen. We're just now hooking up the 24/4000 inverter, that will handle the refrig and the electric toilet+ on the road. The halogen burner is a "Deni" and if you'll Google deni halogen portable burner and Induction portable burner they should come up at various venders. The incinolet toilet needs to be emptied about twice a week (2 tablespoons -1/4 cup of germ free ash) and the blower motor needs to be cleaned every 60 - 90 days. If this isn't done I'm sure it will have an odor. The other thing, if you use it going down the road, you need to turn it on when it's used, you can't store it up for later and then turn it on? Their website: incinolet.com has all the faqs listed. Fast Fred is correct, we did this one our way, that may be, or may not be good for anybody else, I just got tired of people saying it won't work, don't try it. I hope this helps somebody else, try it their way? | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.213.212.85 Rating: N/A |
Simon, I left in the bus a/c and heat for going down the road. The vents are going to be used for that when we're finished. The ones under the cabinet in the bedroom are air return vents for the bus a/c. James, I haven't heard of this bubble insulation collecting moisture, the factory could give us more information on this. Anybody that wants to know more about this should call: Ben at Radiant Technology in Dallas, TX. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.189.77 Rating: N/A |
For what it's worth... I realized something... I listed just 3 main great factors in a conversion. Time. Space. Money. - But I realized there are actually 4. Time. Space. Money. and The Significant Other. [almost left that out. doh. what was I thinking?] Don't know what I was thinking, since chances are if it were just me I would have a school bus with a small refrigerator, a loft, a nerf basketball net, a cool roofdeck, and who knows. Hey Internationals are easy to get parts for. But I think Fast Fred is right. It all comes down to needs / requirements. I've got two people and two dogs. So most likely they will have sleeping quarters maybe under our bed[?] That leather pullout looks great and like the fold up but would never work for us. The fridge freezer feature is something that is very handy. I saw a fantastic school bus that someone built the other day on the internet. It slept his whole family of 6 I believe --- but there was no real kitchen. He built it that way. The bus was really meant to travel the family and sleep them well but mostly eat out on trips and outdoor cooking. take a look Every now and then I like looking at skoolie's to see what great creative / innovative things other people do with their buses. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.92 Rating: N/A |
"The BTU rating is only around 5200 but it doesn't work like an average heater/furnace." NO matter how the heat is created or circulated , 5200 BTU is 5200 BTU. It would take 4 or 5 of those to exist in New England , this time of year. Canada , don't ask! The Suburban gas is rated 42,000 , maybe produces 30,000 into the coach and works OK to Zero with stock insulation and without warm shades. IF you go touring , in winter it could be a concern. Will be interesting to see. Speaking of MY WAY , I believe I am one of the few that has NOT removed the overhead racks (modified one side a bit) but there still there working well for OUR lifestyle. FF | ||
| Gary Belonga (Mb53)
Registered Member Username: Mb53 Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.115.168.59 Rating: N/A |
The electric toilet sounds cool till you start thinking about when it gets old. hmmmm darn thing shorts out and your sitting on it..... Being an ex volunteer fireman I can just imagine how that would go out over the radios when they dispatch that call... Man with burns to bottom side while taking a ------. Those guys are going to be laughing so hard ya get droped while their caring you out. Could just see that making CNN news. The day the pooper blew a fuze. The RV park would be famous for ground zero when the crap really hit the fan. Have a good day | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 312 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Fast Fred, Thank you for saying it for me! I don't get any fun at all out of knocking someone else's ideas, I just don't want to see someone do a whole lot of work on something that won't work well. In Faster's reply to my first post he says: "Propane isn't certified in an RV that I'm aware of." Well, I don't know where he's been for the last FORTY years, but it certainly hasn't been in an RV of any type! He is also totally unaware of how all furnaces work, (they take in their combustion air from outside, and exhaust the combustion byproducts outside, all the warm air is taken from inside and passed over a heat exchanger, then returned.) Back to a Sun Cloud, which is nothing more than four infrared heat lamps shining on a plate, with a fan moving air across the lamps and the hot plate. In my first post, I explained that electric resistance heat produces 3412 BTU per kilowatt, so 1 1/2 kilowats would indeed give 5118 BTU, IF the campground is giving him exactly 120 Volts! His reply was that propane is unsafe. What that has to do with the laws of electricity, I don't know? I also explained how much electricity his coach would use, and that fell on deaf ears. Like it or not, a 1500 Watt radiant heater from a home store for $75.00 or less, will put out exactly the same amount of heat as his a Sun Cloud. Now, someone else kindly published the electrical rating of an Incinolet, and it is 15 amps at 120 Volts, which sounds like 1800 Watts to me. What that means is that if absolutely nothing else in on in that bus, besides the heater, (NO lights, TV, water heater, battery charger, refrigerator, etc.) it will trip a 30 amp campground breaker when the toilet is flushed. Smell? A liner is placed in an Incinolet, then some solids are put in, which are exposed to the air in the bathroom until the paperwork is completed, and the toilet is "flushed." The "FASTER" answer to that was "poorly maintained." Well the correct answer would have been that they weren't maintained at all, they were brand new. Now, I don't sell a competing product to Sun Cloud, I am a licensed electrical and heating and air contractor. I am qualified to do electrical load calculations, and heat gain/loss calculations from any kind of structure. I recommend radiant barrier roof sheathing to all of my customers because it works well. I didn't get any fun out of the work it took to write this, I'm just trying to explain what isn't going to happen. (As usual, I got wordy, and Gary's is inbetween me and I won't say [half fast] Fred's] post. George (Message edited by George Mc6 on December 09, 2007) | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.212.196.70 Rating: N/A |
George, With all your experience, I'm sure you know: The trick to heating and cooling anything, is insulate and insulate, then insulate not the BTUs alone. If your conversion has good insulation it will heat and cool with little effort and less BTUs. I've had many Propane Furnace's in our other conversions and we froze in all types of cold. This Solar Comfort keeps us warm here, so we'll keep our unit and I hope you have a warm winter in your conversion, with your inefficient Propane Furnace. The Propane Catalytic is what I meant to say wasn't approved in RV's. In my opinion, and for our use I don't think much of Propane Furnace's, but that's just my opinion (why don't you ask a lot of people how well their Propane Furnace works, I have?). As I said the Solar Comfort doesn't have a hard blowing fan, that's not it's Principal of Heating. Maybe in cold weather like back East or in Canada, maybe it won't work, I don't know? I'm not trying to sell anything, I'm just stating what we have discovered from actually trying something, new. And, if you think the Solar Comfort works like a space heater then you're wrong, you're really wrong! A space heater heats only a small space directly in front of it, the Solar Comfort we purchased, does in fact, hear me again and I'll print it slow for you, It Does In Fact heat the entire front large section of our bus conversion, sorry, but you're just plain wrong and I don't care what your job, title, license, etc., is. You're trying to compare old and newer technology without really thinking more about them and/or trying the newer technology, I'm glad you weren't on the team that decided to try going to the moon. I'm only qualified to run my mouth here out of actually trying this heating system for me and my family, and it works. As well, I hope you do well with your black water system. I talked to Incinolet and they told me, some people that won't use a liner as required with the Incinolet toilet will have not only a smelly bathroom, they'll also have a mess on the floor, and then they'll say: see it doesn't work. Maybe the railroad learned, some people just won't learn, they don't agree, they'll just say: it won't work, don't bother, and they didn't take the time to add the liner? I wish you did have some fun out of the work it took you to write your statements, on the other hand far be it for me to say but, maybe even you could learn some new things do exist that just may work for somebody, maybe not? Your answers are Statements from the old school, without any reference to newer technology, so since you don't seem to agree with or think it's possible for any new technology, well, maybe we should all just stop and stay with the old ways. Then we could all have inverted cranial erection! | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.212.196.70 Rating: N/A |
Fast Fred, I would like to do a conversion in a 102C3 and leave the enclosed overhead racks. I'd like to see pictures of your conversion if you have time and would send some? And like I said I don't know if this furnace would work at all in the really cold areas, maybe not. If we travel into really cold weather I'll let the board know if it does or doesn't work? | ||
| Stephen (Mohave_steve)
Registered Member Username: Mohave_steve Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 74.32.81.113 Rating: N/A |
Very nice coach! Some random thoughts: I second the statements that one of the most important reasons for converting your own bus is that you can do things your own way and that there are no advancese if we continue doing things the same old way. I have thought about using a Turdburner in my coach. I look forward to hearing how it works for you over time. The wire you used is commonly sold in reels of 250' and is calles SO or SOJ and is not approved for use in this application. I used it in my coach and if I could go back and do it differently I would. There is an alternative that is approved for marine & rv AC wiring http://bestboatwire.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=25 I also used quite large windows in my coach. Wonderful when it is 70 degrees outside but Hell in the summer here when it gets to 120 plus. I am considering replacing them with smaller windows or moving to a cooler climate One question? What did you use to finish the walls? It looks great in the pictures. I am going to refinish mine soon. I used a mid weight wall paper the first time around and it did not wear as well as I would like. Have fun & remember that its YOUR coach, build it the way YOU want it! | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Registered Member Username: Kristinsgrandpa Post Number: 355 Registered: 2-2003 Posted From: 64.24.212.212 Rating: N/A |
Mohave Steve is correct about the extension cords for wiring. It is forbidden by the National Electric Code. I have a list of names of the people that admit to wireing their coaches with substandard/illegal wiring. The purpose of the list is to avoid these coaches like the plague. I hate being woke up in the night by fire trucks and sirens. Ed | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 555 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.34 Rating: N/A |
A space heater does exactly as the name says, it heats a space volume - in other words it heats a room or closed space. It depends on cool air going into the bottom and hot air coming out the top. A space heater does not heat just what is located in front of it, that is the definition of a radiant heater - big difference. Quartz heaters are good examples of this. They don't do well at heating air. I'm sitting in front of a quartz radiant heater as I write this and it feels good, but it does nothing to heat the room. (Message edited by gusc on December 09, 2007) | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.213.121.154 Rating: N/A |
Steve, I'll look at the wire on our next conversion, thanks for the info. I like mine and we feel it's very safe. My job my way, it's great for us. Also we had some Laminate installed on the walls and most of it came out real nice. Two small places have to be redone. So far the Turdburner has been working fine for the last 7 or 8 months, we'll find out as we gooo if it's good or not. Ed, Don't worry, I won't try to sell you our conversion, do yours your way. Gus, I think your proving my point, the space heater does nothing for the room, you're only heating your limited space. | ||
| Fred Nelken (Faster_freddie)
Registered Member Username: Faster_freddie Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.213.121.154 Rating: N/A |
I thank everybody for their comments, I hope we all do it our way. And now I'll change from Author to Artist and draw my postings to a close. | ||
| Muddog16 (Muddog16)
Registered Member Username: Muddog16 Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.142.130.45 Rating: N/A |
Ed you can't push a rope buddy, doing it your own way and doing it the safe way are not the same! I wanted to asnwer this the other day I decided not to, but.........I can't help myself. I believe your correct using SO/SJO, is totally irresponsible, anyone doing so would leave themselves liable! I'm all for doing it "your" way! Extension cords are "temporary wiring", not made for permanent installations! I got into this discussion at the other board about 2 years ago! I know that Ed, JJ and several others are electricians, taking my shoes and socks off to count the years of experience, a zillion years of experience myself included! I know for a fact that Ed, JJ and myself spent 4 years in a certified electrical apprenticeship program, If we suggest that some wire is not the correct wire to use for your applications needs, you can take it to the bank that we "ARE NOT" suggesting that you do it any other way but the "Safe Way". Codes were made up to protect people from shoddy worksmanship, that some where in history probably caused a death or serious injury. If you don't want your family to become a statistic, get a code book, if your to stubborn to read, get a certified craftsman, if your to stubborn to listen to the guy that you hired, find another hobby! This post wasn't intended to offend anyone, if it made you think about the seriousness of using the wrong material and the possibility of someone being harmed, then you read this post correctly! (Message edited by muddog16 on December 10, 2007) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 813 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.42.167.154 Rating: N/A |
>>>>>We're just now hooking up the 24/4000 inverter, that will handle the refrig and the electric toilet+ on the road<<<<< So you haven't yet tried the elec. toilet other than at a P/P? is that correct? | ||
| RJmule (Rjmule)
Registered Member Username: Rjmule Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 75.51.76.248 Rating: N/A |
SOMETIMES, statements (post) could be said in a less condescending manner where both parties could learn much more.. GO FIGURE !!! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 122 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.234 Rating: N/A |
"Codes were made up to protect people from shoddy worksmanship, that some where in history probably caused a death or serious injury." Nice Fairy Tale , but in the case of the RVIA code its a crap code to protect junk quickie mfg practice with unskilled labor. I only use tinned Marine Boat Cable ,USCG , which may or may not be "approved" for RV use. Installed to aircraft or marine specs I sleep at night , far better than if I were in a factory RVIA junk box. Extension cords are for use as extension cords , period. FF | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1130 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.18.54 Rating: N/A |
I like the tinned marine wire for its resistance to the two plagues: creeping black or frothy green. Your methods of install, choice of wire gauge and choice of circuit protection are going to be more important than the "kind" of wire, in defending your build-it-yourself liability. Wires don't start fires; poor execution, poor maintenance and poor decision making burn the bus conversion down. Or the stick&staple.... If you use whatever you want, and do the job right, it's all a moot point, eh? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Moe Hollow (Moehollow)
Registered Member Username: Moehollow Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.183.235.44 Rating: N/A |
Just A comment on the heat. No matter how it is delivered, 1500 watts is only 1500 watts; the amount of heat delivered to the room is the same. There could be serious differences though in how it is distributed like hot and and cold spots that effect the comfort of the room. We lived in out last bus for several years in temps as low as the high 30's and managed fine with a cheap, plastic, 1500 watt heater for the entire front of the bus though, so I do not think that the Solar Comfort is doing anything exceptional. It can work under the right conditions. | ||
| James Robinson (Jjrbus)
Registered Member Username: Jjrbus Post Number: 106 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 68.242.191.29 Rating: N/A |
To code, not to code, RV code is poop! This guy uses X and has no problem etc. Nobody is going to inspect it anyway. Think about this befor you do it your way. If you have a fire or electrocute someone and the insurance co can prove it was due to code violations. They will not pay!!! Can you afford to be self insured? If someone dies cause you did it your way, can your conscience live with that? | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 313 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
First off, I would like to thank Fast Fred, Gus, and Moe for saying the same thing I said about this, namely "5200 BTU is 5200 BTU no matter how it is created." "1500 Watts is only 1500 Watts, the amount delivered to the room is the same." And we all agree that 1500 Watts is about 5200 BTU. Gus defines space heaters vs. radiant heaters well. Faster Fred really isn't going to like Moe's post, but since he doesn't want to listen, there's not much we can do about it. Faster Fred acusses me of "not being up on the new technology," but I would like to ask him: What is new about heat lamps? They have been around for at least 75 years, haven't they? I'm only 60, but I can remember them keeping food warm in restaurants when I was little, not to mention the number of them in hotel bathrooms, etc. So, what is new technology? Putting four of them in a box, shining at the lid, and blowing a "gentle" fan over them? Are they [rough service] bulbs? Am I saying that Faster paid about $350 for a nice wood cabinet? Yup. Enough of that, bcause this is a discussion of electrical use. I need to thank Niles for his question "So you haven't tried the toilet at other than a P/P, correct? (P/P means POWER pole!) This was after Faster's comment "We're just hooking up the 24/4000 inverter that will run the fridge and toilet+ on the road." OBVIOUSLY THIS BUS HASN'T BEEN LIVED IN AT ALL! Then Fast Fred asks if this coach could ever boondock 24/7 without a generator? Thanks to Bart's link, we have the amperage rating of the toilet, so lets all think about THIS! Its lunchtime, and Faster comes in from outside, uses the toilet, and washes his hands. He then goes to the "kitchen" opens the fridge, gets out his lunch, and puts it on his portable Deni electric burner to heat. What happens? The answer in a minute, but first, think about this too. 15 amps of 120 VAC (the toilet current during its burning cycle) will take about 80 amps of 24 VDC out of the house batteries, so this alone answers the boondocking question posed above, and we do have to "think out of the box" here, because this hasn't come up before. From his diatribe on propane, I am figuring an electric water heater also...? The fact that I am asking this now is MY ADMISSION THAT I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A WEEK! But, I am a black water person, so that's my excuse? What happens when Faster goes to have lunch? NOTHING, unless he eats it cold! Why? 1800 Watts Toilet 1200 Watts Water Heater _120 Watts Refrigerator 1500 Watts Deni portable electric burner 4620 Watts Total, on a 4 KW inverter=TRIP! 6120 Watts W/2 Deni's on, 9120 Watts W/2 Electric heaters Without a light, water pump, TV, or anything else. 4 KW out of a good inverter is about 180 amps at 24 Volts, I don't think Faster has considered that either, not to mention connecting an inverter, (33 amps at 120 V) to a 100 A 120/240 V power panel with a 50A shore cord? Of course, there is an EXCELLENT post on this board with links to a FIRST CLASS schematic, on how to, but it WAS done by a person with a black water tank... I haven't mentioned connecting the two 1500 Watt electric heaters either, and what did he post for his generator capacity? A whole bunch of us have voiced concerns over his inability to heat the inside of his coach in cold weather, how about the bay with the fresh water and the grey tank? I won't even mention a block heater.... Can somebody tell me what a "cranial erection" is? (I thought his name was Fred, not Richard.) I do know what a recto-cranial inversion is, and I don't need to voice my opinion on where one is occurring. Then he accuses me of using propane furnaces after all of the hydronic advice I give, THAT hurt, even though I do have a propane stove and fridge! Where would the firemen drop him while laughing? On his burned spot! There is an old saying about one's ability to lead a horse to water, and the inability to make it drink. Also, have you heard the story of the dog that was making love to the skunk? He had to quit before he got all he wanted, because he had all he could stand! I'm done now, I'll still gladly help anyone who asks about electrical, or HVAC, and I promise not to do this to anyone else! Black water, and propane George, NHF, and I MEAN IT!!! (Message edited by George Mc6 on December 11, 2007) | ||
| Moe Hollow (Moehollow)
Registered Member Username: Moehollow Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.183.235.44 Rating: N/A |
Well George, We all know that one, in an attempt to innovate can make mistakes. I have to compromise between my hopes and what actually happens all the time. I am currently trying to stop my washing machine pump from leaking and, in theory, I have it licked, but it still leaks. I read an article that said even though RV's have all this built in boondocking capacity, the vast majority of people never (I mean never) use it. They drive from pole to pole. If I were to add it up, I'm sure that I spent more time getting my inverter and battery system together on my last bus than time spent using the inverter. It got so I would pray for power outages so I could feel good about having a peaceful backup system. We have seen others that have made all electric coaches with huge fridges and 240 volt cooktops. They are just not interested in boondocking. So I guess, with a little bit of load management, Faster's system will work fine for him. Anytime someone tries to answer a question, he may be assuming parameters that the asker is not interested in. If I were to ask if my $20. plastic heater was a viable heating system, it could only be met with dismay. but if I add I will be plugged in and it will always be above 40 degrees, you could do the math and tell me ye or nay. By the way those cheap heaters are great. They never get very hot, they shut down if they fall, they are very quite, and super cheap if someone else is paying the bill. The last one I had even had a remote control that was also a thermostat. I must admit that I broke the bank on that one though. It must have been about 50 bucks. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 314 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Moe, I greatly appreciate what you have said, and in my opinion, you are correct. I also hope you don't mind my using your post as a backup. I too live in the country on PG&E, and get perverse delight out of cooking and watching TV during a power failure. Did I tear Faster to shreds? Yes, but I didn't call him any names, I didn't accuse him of anything, all I did was use the facts he posted against him. Had he not said what he said to me, I wouldn't have done it, but all I did was do his load calculations for him. You suggest that Faster will have to practice load management, which is really correct. A major part of Faster's load management is going to be not using his bathroom before meals, and I have to admit I think that is funny! If the poor guy is using his two Deni's and watching TV while dinner cooks, he will be in the dark if the water heater starts. I too have a $20 plastic heater which I bought in Bakersfield in 1986 when my bus was still in charter service, and I was temporarily living in my motorhome in a trailer park with free electricity. The m/h had a 20 gal. built in tank, and the propane truck only came every two weeks, so I had to do something. 1500 Watts/5200 BTU was enough to do over half the 27' m/h well, and 20 gal of lpg did my cooking and water heating for two weeks, with several gallons to spare. I'm so cheap that I put a new cord on my heater, instead of buying a new one. (I wonder how long the bulbs last in a Sun Cloud?) I took my kids to Yosemite for New Years weekend in that m/h, we spent four days ice skating etc, and were very comfortable with the small Suburban furnace and water heater, on 20 gal of propane, and two group 27 deep cycles. No 12 V tv, no inverter, no video games in those days, but we did throw a lot of snowballs. Unfortunately, Faster was taken in by their hype, and doesn't want to listen, also we had better be careful, or his company will be after us, its just too bad he didn't ask first. Remember also, that in his eyes, we're a couple of black water rats. Regards, George | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 210 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 152.20.216.103 Rating: N/A |
I don't feel entirely safe using those cheap ceramic heaters while I'm not there. I've found that things (clothes, towels) have fallen and partially covered them in my camper. I know it's bulkier, but I use one of those plug-in oil-filled radiators. It seems to do a better job in my camper (I use the roof heat pump in the bus). The fact that the oil stays hot helps it maintain a more consistent temp... just like a real radiator. Plus, it seems to be a lot safer. I've even warmed / dried damp towels on it (I don't completely cover it and don't leave it unattended with anything on it). Lowe's had a pallet of 'em for $17 each towards the end of winter last year. David | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 316 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
David, It sounds like you're practicing safe practices. You are even cheaper than me and Moe, which isn't a bad thing. Your 1500 Watt radiator puts out the same amount heat as the subject of this post, for $383 less, plus sales tax savings, even though it is "old technology"! George | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 152.20.216.103 Rating: N/A |
I'd say my electric radiator heater's technology is about as old as hydronic or steam heat! The nice thing is that when it eventually breaks, it'll be easy to replace or repair. David | ||
| Moe Hollow (Moehollow)
Registered Member Username: Moehollow Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.183.235.91 Rating: N/A |
Just to clarify. I do not mean the ceramic heaters. They get much hotter than the plastic ones and have a much higher velocity air flow which means a good deal more noise. The plastic ones basically have a web of filament. The current to the wires is constantly going on and off producing warm, never really hot air. I would not vouch for their safety if covered by a towel though. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.226.57 Rating: N/A |
I would not vouch for their safety if covered by a towel though. YouGets what you Pays for! Any heater with an overheat and tip overprotection should not start a fire. Cheap crap will. FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 317 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
"Another kick at the dog?" Just of interest, in the Flea Market someone is looking for a used furnace. Our "new technology proponent" suggests he buy a Sun Cloud, the buyer declines because "I'd have to buy another bus just to carry the batteries." | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 212 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 75.180.200.138 Rating: N/A |
FF, The point I was making was that the surfaces that can be touched are not really hot. This is due to the large surface area of the heater as opposed to a small coil that's intensely hot. Like I mentioned, I don't leave a towel on it when I'm not there. It is a nice way to warm a towel before taking a shower, though. These have a thermostat and overheat protection, so they should be safe. David | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.253 Rating: |
"It is a nice way to warm a towel before taking a shower, though." A nicer way to warm a towel , and the coach at the same time is with hydronic heat. Yes ,it needs to be well thought out and planned as the coach is built, but a Paloma , or Bosch with a small 12v circ pump will require the least coach power in boondokin. I am a big proponent of the RV as cabin for guests , or as fall back in a disaster. A bit of cold rain causes a "Disaster" in some states. How much nicer to be able to head to the coach , than to the US Gov "shelter". FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 318 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
FF, You're absolutely right, at least in my opinion! Especially your third paragraph! In my doing his load sizing for him, (Faster) I wasn't aware of what size his water heater was, so I am short at least 300 watts, and at least another 1000 for the second instant heater. There is a picture of a microwave, which is 700 to a grand more, plus all of the little incidentals, lights, water pump, TV, etc. Then there is a picture of a 7 (yes seven)KW generator! I think that is called coming un-armed to a battle of wits, but what do I know, I'm using old propane, old diesel, and old black water! G |
