| Author | Message | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 53 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 209.98.146.235 Rating: N/A |
It looks like I might end up having to live in my bus full time for who knows how long, but heating costs might make it impractical. The Proheat uses 1/2 gallon of diesel per hour. It would end up costing $1200 or more a month just for heat. I do live in Minnesota so heat is a huge issue. Would my least expensive option be to install a propane furnace even though I don't really have any place to run ducts and I really don't want to cut the bus sides for the exhaust? I'm planning to put my house on the market in February. I know the market is really, really bad, but I have a new house on a lake so it should sell within 60 to 90 days. I'm having a hard time finding an affordable lot to build my new house so I might have to find a campground to live in my bus for a while while I save money and search for an affordable lot. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 201 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.143.38.76 Rating: N/A |
Brian, I can't offer much (other than the usual - the best insulation you can have is just good enough) but if the Proheat runs 12 gallons of diesel a day, would propane much less? Propane has a good deal less energy per gallon than liquid (diesel, home heating oil, kero -- some sources say that propane has about half the BTU's of the highest-density liquid fuel) and prices per gallon of propane are less, but if you're burning 12 gallons of diesel a day to keep warm, you'd be going through a lot of propane, too. Good luck with finding a solution. | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 209.98.146.235 Rating: N/A |
12 gallons a day I suppose would be the absolute worst case scenario. I don't have the slightest clue how often the Proheat would really have to run. I have spray foam walls and ceiling, but no floor insulation except over the engine. I'm in the absolute worst mood right now and I keep looking at the worst possible scenarios for everything. I might just end up selling my bus at a huge loss and be done with it. | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 209.98.146.235 Rating: N/A |
Okay, I was wrong on the fuel consumption for the Proheat. The datasheet on the Teleflex says it uses .1 gallon per hour which is far more reasonable. I was going by the 1/2 gallon per hour someone said a Webasto uses and assuming a Proheat is similiar. The Webasto this person has is probably an 80,000 BTU instead of the 45,000 BTU of the Proheat X45. The disparity between the two is still pretty big. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 215 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.62.149 Rating: N/A |
Brian, if you could find the boilers from a primus system and put them some where and use your proheat pumps to cirulate the water it would work.I have primus heat in my bus and it uses a 3/4 gallon of propane every 24hr when its around zero.Bulebrids and some high end coaches had this heat for years before the aqua hot got popular.just another idea for you (Message edited by luvrbus on December 15, 2007) | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 209.98.146.235 Rating: N/A |
If the Proheat really uses just .1 gallons an hour at full output there is no reason to look at something else. Worst case scenario if the Proheat ran 24x7 would be about $250 a month for heat. I haven't installed the Proheat yet so I could still go with something else. | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 96 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.45.165.58 Rating: N/A |
Brian, I read the fuel consumption of the Proheat at .32gal/hr. Since a gallon of diesel has about 129K BTU, .1 gallon would only be 12.9K BTU. http://www.teleflexpower.com/tb_truckheaters_specs.php Someone with a Proheat system that has spent time in a cold clime should be able to give you a better idea what the actual consumption works out to and how often the system might cycle. Don 4107, with a Proheat yet to be installed.  | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 216 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.62.149 Rating: N/A |
Brian, does the proheat have a backup electric heating element like the aquahot to heat the water if so what not use that.My system has electric element to heat the system when i am pluged in to a PP (Message edited by luvrbus on December 15, 2007) (Message edited by luvrbus on December 15, 2007) | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 209.98.146.235 Rating: N/A |
Interesting. Teleflex's datasheet lists .1 gallon per hour which I thought seemed low. I couldn't find the fuel usage listed on the datasheet except in a comparision against idling a truck. They may have listed .1 gph assuming average runtime instead of max to make it look better against idling the engine. No backup electric element in a Proheat. Electricity has usually been the most expensive way to heat, but might be cheaper now that oil is so high. My highest heat bill ever for my house was around $250 and that was the month when an addition was only partially insulated yet already heated. It seems crazy that a 300 square foot bus would cost more to heat than a 2,500 square foot house, but the house does use natural gas instead of fuel oil. | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.197.246.104 Rating: N/A |
Pellet wood stove? We just put one in our house and absolutly love it. No smoke or ash, very low maintanence and all automatic like gas. Just about half the cost. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 772 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
You can probably figure only one fourth of that fuel use. Unless you keep the windows open, it should only come on when heat is called for, just like a home furnace. Shouldn't be more than $100 to $150 a month, unless the wind blows a lot. Afterall, you are only heating a small area. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 773 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
If you wanted to install a propane furnace, why not mount it in a baggage compartment and put exhaust holes through a baggage door instead. BTW, make sure you have some electric heat as backup, because everyone knows that furnaces suddenly quit in February at night with below zero temperatures.( Oh, and on a holiday weekend ) | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Registered Member Username: Chucks Post Number: 1179 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.240.109.40 Rating: |
@Bigrigger - yes, I can hear the scorn from the bus-guys now, but I in fact, am planning to do just that, one of these years. Could you tell me what brand/kind you used that you recommend so highly? Just like a skoolie - let's see...mcshoolie? Naah... But Brian's not gonna cut a hole for a (harumph) stovepipe in his coach! | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Registered Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 908 Registered: 12-2002 Posted From: 71.223.108.50 Rating: N/A |
I used my Webasto for interior heat for several weeks, and although I didn't keep track of how much fuel I burned in 6 weeks it wasn't that much. A huge difference in how much fuel you use depends on how you use the heating system, obviously you don't need to heat the engine so if you are only heating the interior the heater brings the fluid up to temperature and it will cycle through the bus until the temperature drops down, then the burner lights up again. I believe the specs (1/3 gal an hour?) is based on warming up the engine, the interior takes a lot less BTU's. One thing I loved about my Webasto interior heat is that I have the tubes running through the walls so they radiated warmth and made the bus very cozy. --Geoff '82 RTS AZ | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 248 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.126.86.142 Rating: N/A |
Brian, Find a campground with 50 amp service that doesn't charge extra for electric and get some electric space heaters. Use the Proheat as backup when the blizzards from Canada come a howling. | ||
| Bill Keller (Busnut104)
Registered Member Username: Busnut104 Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 67.140.40.142 Rating: N/A |
I go along with Chucks idea. a coupl of cube heater would do the trick and not cost that much to run. | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 205 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 72.80.173.135 Rating: N/A |
Brian, get some bales of hay and tuck them around the bus to keep the wind from going under, believe me it helps alot! When i lived aboard in NY 4 winters, i had a canvas divider to seperate the foward one third of the bus. I retreated to the back 2/3rds. I also cut out celotex window coverings and vent covers as well as covers for the A/C vents. I had access to the marina showers so i dident have the major condensation problems. Dont forget wool hats and socks! Remember the old timers made it thru many winters without all we have. good luck be positive! you can do it | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1159 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.67.83 Rating: N/A |
Brian, a 45,000 BTU proheat should use a maximum of 1/4 gallon per hour when running. If you try to use cube heaters to replace it, you will need 7 to keep up with the maximum output of the proheat. Seven heaters will require 40 amps on one leg and 28 amps on the other leg of your 50 amp shore cord. Does that make any sense to you? Even if you can get 50 amp service, I can't see why it would be thrown in. More likely, it would be more than you care to pay. If you turn on the heat and let the bus equalize inside so that the burner turns on and off without changing much, you will be able to estimate the burn time percentage. Don't let the winter get to you! Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.48 Rating: N/A |
Find a campground with 50 amp service that doesn't charge extra for electric and get some electric space heaters. Use the Proheat as backup when the blizzards from Canada come a howling. So let the campground eat your $40 a day heating bill? , and expect them stay in business? NICE. A better method is to FIRST figure out the heat requirement for the coach. For $29.00 you can purchase a device that will total the actual electric draw from an electric heater. Kill a Watt. Use a GOOD thermometer to measure the inside the coach temp and outside the coach temps on a cold night. You will now know the KW required for that particular temperature rise in YOUR coach. Say a 1500w use gave 10F temp rise. Where you live a 70 -90 deg rise may be required , so multiply the temp rise by 9. Now you know the KW , easily translated into BTU. Diesel has more Btu than propane . IF you are desperate, I would take out a coach side window and blank it with ply. Then build a bracket/platform to hold a hot air furnace 30% or more bigger in BTU than your worst guesstimate. FF | ||
| Donn Reeves (Donnreeves)
Registered Member Username: Donnreeves Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.115.65.240 Rating: N/A |
Brian, My Pro-Heat runs about 10-15 minutes an hour depending on outside temp and themostat setting.I believe the correct useage figure for the X-45 is .37 gal/hr, although mine seems to use much less than that. Two winters ago I ran the heat 24/7 @60* because I was working on the interior most every day. It ran from November first to the end of february on less than 120 gallons. I have tried just about every form of heat in my career as a home builder, and have never seen anything more efficient than the Pro-Heat. Donn | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 214 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 75.180.200.138 Rating: N/A |
How about using off-road diesel in the heater instead of normal diesel? Here in NC, road tax is about $.46 per gallon. It should make things somewhat cheaper. David | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 321 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Brian, Here's the numbers on BTU content. Gas, diesel, and kerosene, 144,000 BTU/gal. Propane, 94,600 BTU/gal. Natural gas = 100,000 BTU/therm. Electricity produces 3,412 BTU/kilowatt, NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF HEATER IT IS, PERIOD! You CAN get 95% efficiency out of some RESIDENTIAL furnaces on propane or natural gas, but I would figure 80% across the board (except electric which is 100%) to be safe. So, dividing 45,000 by 144,000 sounds like how they got about .37 huh? That is if it runs continuously, which it won't... George | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 209.98.146.235 Rating: N/A |
I have my doubts that the Proheat is 100% efficient. Electric is the only heat that is 100% efficient as Gearge said. I keep seeing ads for electric heaters that claim to heat enormous spaces on a standard 15 amp circuit, but the heaters are only putting out maybe 5,000 BTU max. If I do end up living in my bus for a while, it will be past the coldest part of winter so I guess heating costs shouldn't be too bad even burning diesel. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1160 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.67.83 Rating: N/A |
Brian, if you are real concerned about long term comfort at low operating cost, install a heat pump; some of them are rated right down to 5 degrees. If the temperature is high enough to use one, the operating cost is a lot lower than diesel for the BTUs, as long as you're not running a heat strip. We're planning on going to some heat pumps here because we can get units that will operate all the way down to our lowest temps. And our original heating will stay in place for backup heating if we need it in the coldest weather or have a breakdown. In your case, your proheat will make a perfect backup unit, I think. Check out the specs on these things. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 322 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Brian, Please look back at a post labeled "bubble insulation/Suncloud from a week and a half ago. There the heater "Mystique" is explained. Please read the whole thread before you form an opinion. We all have our opinions and I don't want to start things, but I would really like to see a heat pump that will out-perform a fossil fuel furnace at under 40 Degrees. Anyhow, the cost of buying and installing one couldn't end up saving money over running your 80% Pro Heat! In the aforementioned post, that proponent of an expensive electric heater obviously built an all-electric bus without doing any load calculations. | ||
| Jerome Dusenberry (Jerry32)
Registered Member Username: Jerry32 Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 148.78.243.52 Rating: N/A |
I am in Yuma AZ and rite now the temp is 37F and am running a heat pump. I use electric heat backup and think it is cheaper than propane and diesel.mThe guy accross the lane from me has an Eagle with diesel furnace and heating with electic heaters as is cheaper than diesel. Jerry | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1135 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.120.60 Rating: N/A |
Hello We need to be adding the ratings for these devices. not just throwing brand names out. For instance, Webasto makes everything from a 6K BTU bunk warmer to a 125K BTU boiler, all quite capable of being used by busnuts, depending on their projected areas of operation. Comparing fuel consumption or heat capacity suitablity without it, well, folks are going to be getting mixed up! Brian, you will be fine with a Proheat in the 45K BTU rating, both in cost and heating capacity, as long as you have enough ways to transfer the heat from the heated liquid into the coach. The burner won't run flat out once the coach is up to temperature, and depending on the recovery capacity of your install, (you don't want to wait hours to regain comfortable temps) you can lower the temp while you are away from the coach, saving some more fuel. Air infiltration is the biggest threat to a busnut's heating costs and/or comfort, way ahead of the type of insulation used. Gaps, cracks, drafts, the stock defroster and body heat air intakes, gap around the door, are some areas that MUST be managed, otherwise all the insulation in the world won't help. The heat is simply sucked out of the coach, requiring a considerably bigger heat source capacity to compensate. Remember, that in insulating an older structure, sealing the place up with a vapour barrior is part of the job, so the dramatic savings are partially due to the air infiltration being cut down. The comment of retreating to the rear 2/3 of the coach is an exellent way of quickly dealing with the drafty front end: only have to manage the 4 edges of the divider. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 151 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
I have a 40,000 propane furnace, it works well but uses significant power for the blower motor as well as significant propane. I also carry one Little Buddy propane ventless, safe for indoor use unit. Mostly the Little Buddy all by itself keeps the bus warm on low. The Little Buddy, on low will run 110 hours with a barbicue size propane bottle. I love this little unit. I have a co2 detector right above the heater and it never goes off. I crack my vent the smallest amount and I have no odor and can be warm. I think all of you should have one of these for an emergency if you run cold weather. They are less than $100 and Camping World sells the !0 foot line that adapts from the small cylinder to your coach bottles. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1162 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.67.83 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Brian. When I mentioned heat pumps in my earlier post, I was referring to the modern inverter designs, not the older stuff. Ther are may designs available that work at temperatures well below freezing and at least a few that work down to 0 degrees F. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska |
