| Author | Message | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 213 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.73 Rating: N/A |
well the new older bus made it down ok but there are some charging issues to be resolved. We are camped out near Ocala Fla at my folks place and resting up and enjoying the warm weather. We did bring the rain with us and everyone seems glad for that (except Dori). Seems the altenator setup on this bus doesent really work, it doesent charge unless the rpms are pegged. The PO made a nice bracket to hook up a chevy altenator driven off the fuel pump (i think) gear with a love joy coupling. After some modifacation to the coupling and alt.fan and shaft and using a different alt. we still have charging issues if we run at night. I think the rpms are not high enough off this shaft. What kind of setup do you 4104 or Silversiders use? i am guessing we need to get the gear driver Leece-Neville as there areent any pullys avail for a belt driven. We probably will make a run down to webster on monday and maybe stop in at the Detroit dealer in Ocala on the way back. Bill if it gets cold it is not our fault! We waited till it warmed up before we left. This bus is really just a steel tent till we get a jenny. And thanks to everyone who answered the Gen Poll ! I am leaning hard towards Wrico diesel unit but going to keep my eyes open for several different units suggested till we make the plunge A(spend the $$). Happy New Year Dave and Dori | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 238 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.25.139.50 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dave glad to here the bus made it. The alt should be driven off the right hand pto opening viewed from the trans. end of the engine. Using a Leece Neville will be best as the regulators are set up to bring on the alt. at lower rpm. Belt drives are available for the 671 engines to adapt them from the original direct drive D.C. generators. Mounting can be tricky as the area is a bit tight but if you take your time you can build up a mount or if you are unable any good machine- fab shop can do it. If can get by until you are up this way you are welcome to stop by look at the mounts on my buses and we could even build you one wile your here. Hope to see at our 4th of July week end antique power show here in Outville Ohio. Best of luck Tim | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 819 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
My 4104 used to have the 160 amp generator with a large regulator in the pass rear lower side compt; was frequently a pita to keep in voltage range, etc, etc. Finally removed generator and regulator, replaced with a belt driven 160 amp Leece Neville alternator with built in regulator. Been on more than 15 years and has never had a problem. Installed a double pully drive in hole where generator mounted in the the trans end of engine. Some what tight fit with relatively short belts, but works great. | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 205 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.233.230 Rating: N/A |
If you have a "Chevy" alternator, it's probably a Delcotron of some sort. FWIW, some old Delcotrons were only 60 amp units. Newer units off Camaros and 9C1 Impalas are much larger...in the 120 to 140 amp output. They made good charge from idle. These units are found on vehicles that have electric radiator fans. Some Suburbans, LT1-4 Camaros, police (9C1) Impalas...and any other 92 or later Chevy product with electric radiator fans. These compact alternators would likely almost bolt into your existing mounts. They would charge plenty to keep your bus running....headlights and all. One thing that may be an issue is the heater blower...any idea what that thing requires. If you are using the bus heat? These units require a 12V ign switched power and a B+ lead. You could install an idiot light in the dash if you wanted..or wire it up in the engine room. Get one from a recycler and cut off about a foot of the wiring harness so you have all the correct plugs. The above alternators would charge at the speeds your engine turns. All of these units are supplied with serpentine belt pullys but an older "V" belt pully will bolt onto the units. Cheers, JR | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.233.230 Rating: N/A |
I have not seen this mentioned yet, but the cam PTO on Detroit Diesels turns at crankshaft speed...unlike four strokes which turns at half crank speed. If using an automotive alternator, use the smallest driven pully (the one on the alternator) that you can get. JR | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 239 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.25.139.50 Rating: N/A |
Hey Dave something I forgot to mention alternators will produce a charge voltage when rotated either direction You will however need to look at the cooling fan on the front of the alternator you choose to use to see if the fan blade is directional. Some are mono directional and will not move the cooling air through the unit if turned in the wrong direction. Tim | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 570 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.70 Rating: N/A |
My 4104 setup is the same as J. Roans and Tim's but I like yours better. Tim may be on to something about the direction of rotation too! I don't really understand about the connection to the fuel pump?? In the first place a 160a alt like mine is gross overkill for my light elect load and probably yours. The result is that mine doesn't kick in sometimes until I've driven 30-50 miles. Unless you have a huge house battery bank 60-80a is plenty. It doesn't take many rpms to make an alt charge so doubt that is your problem. As JR says you probably have the Delco internal regulator model which requires either a switch, resistor or light on the third connection to make it work properly and to keep it from discharging your battery when the engine is off. Forget gear drives, belts are far better, they keep a bunch of metal parts out of the engine in case of drive failure and are far easier to remove. | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 207 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.233.230 Rating: N/A |
GM offers reversed fans for LH paired marine applications and serpentine apps. Serpentine alt drives may be either direction. The charge rate wouldn't be affected by the wrong direction...well, it would eventually. As heat builds up, charge capability goes down. At some point excess heat will let the smoke gets out and that's the end of the alternator. Tim's point is a good one. You may find that the alternator can be mounted either forward or backwards, as long as the belt and mounts could be fabbed. If driving off the rear PTO, (assuming you have a rear PTO?), a LH engine may correctly spin a RH alternator. You know, you might have a bad alternator or wiring issue that's keeping an otherwise satisfactory system from working. Your Delco is an alternator that any psuedo car guru could diagnose and repair. Rebuilt Delco alternators are less than a $100 bucks. Find them anywhere. JR | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 208 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.233.230 Rating: N/A |
GM offers reversed fans for LH paired marine applications and serpentine apps. Serpentine alt drives may be either direction. The charge rate wouldn't be affected by the wrong direction...well, it would eventually. As heat builds up, charge capability goes down. At some point excess heat will let the smoke gets out and that's the end of the alternator. Tim's point is a good one. You may find that the alternator can be mounted either forward or backwards, as long as the belt and mounts could be fabbed. If driving off the rear PTO, (assuming you have a rear PTO?), a LH engine may correctly spin a RH alternator. You know, you might have a bad alternator or wiring issue that's keeping an otherwise satisfactory system from working. Your Delco is an alternator that any psuedo car guru could diagnose and repair. Rebuilt Delco alternators are less than a $100 bucks. Find them anywhere. JR | ||
| Cameron Jones (Crazy71)
Registered Member Username: Crazy71 Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 72.49.253.33 Rating: N/A |
Many of the GM alts are at least 94-104 amp. Many of the cases are very similar so make suere you get a 100+ one. The older Delco units that have the flat two prong plug in should come in at least up to 104 amp, maybe higher. Also check into a smaller pulley size. There are at least 3 different popular sizes for a standard v-belt. You can get even smaller ones. A smaller pulley can increase alt speed by a couple of hundred rpms and keep your charging up at normal engine speeds. I worked on a limo one time that had 160 powerline on it that would not maintain charge with everything on. For the most part, it was ok. If you got stuck in traffic with the front and rear a/c on high and your foot on the brake, if was discharging and would drain the battery and actually stall out dead as heck in about 12 minutes. (that was fun in the middle of 3 lanes of inching along traffic on I-75 in construction). We tried a bunch of stuff like adjustable regulators etc, but a 2 sizes down smaller pulley fixed it for good. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 710 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.3.169.171 Rating: N/A |
Dave, Since you are near Ocala, Take a run over to PowerTech on 441 just west of Leesburg. Sometimes they have some good deals on used & refurbished generators. Jack | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 821 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
Check with an alternator rebuilder... they make a regulator for the delcotrons that automatically start charging without a wire attached to a resistive load or charge bulb. The high amp alternators are nice if you have the capacity of two 8D's and also use them for your house batteries. They can bring these up a lot quicker. A lot of these auto alternators aren't designed for extended high load use. Alternators are rated at so much output at certain RPMs. If they don't spin that fast, they won't put out rated amperage. RPM's like 5000 is not uncommon for automotive units. Alternators for heavy duty trucks are rated at lower rpms., heavy duty construction to resist vibration and heat, designed for high load continous use. The nice thing about auto alternators is that they are cheap and can be obtained everywhere. Try to find a " delta wound design auto alternator " they typically put out two to three times the amperage at idle compared the regular units. GM made a nice unit that they used in the early eighties on diesels and Cadillacs that were rated at 80 or 100 amps. They were about 15 percent larger than the regular units that were used on GM's at that time. Should be run with two belts though and you can use the self exiting regulator in these that fit the regular GM units.That larger size is good for dissipating heat build up. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 191 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.226.111 Rating: N/A |
i am guessing we need to get the gear driver Leece-Neville as there arent any pullys avail for a belt driven. Do you want to purchase a used running one , off a 6-71 bus?? There may be one in Arcadia for sale, but it may be 24v. FF (Message edited by fast_fred on January 13, 2008) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 824 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
Those pulley units can be had from a truck salvage yard that has any 6-71's Just about all those old trucks used a belt driven alternator. | ||
| Jim & Linda Callaghan (Jimc)
Registered Member Username: Jimc Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 75.210.93.59 Rating: N/A |
Dave, You may have an alternator that someone just plugged in without much thought. I bought an old chevy pick up that the previous owner hooked up a self exciting alternator and by passed the old voltage regulator. What I found was that without a load like one of the other posts referred to it would not start charging until very high RPM. What I found was that if I revved it up after starting it would charge from that point on, the problem with that was it continued to charge too much and I was boiling the battery. Either way you should be able to get a good rebuild shop to diagnose and repair it. Good luck Jim | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 214 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.73 Rating: N/A |
Thanks everyone for the posts. The original altenator gave me trouble when i picked the bus up and drove it home. It was a small frame alt with the flat 2 wire plug etc but no stamp or tag as to what amp. There was no pully but a Lovejoy coupling on the end of the shaft mated to the shaft coming from the engine which has the other half of the coupling set screwed to it (the 2 sandwich together) and the fan was running the wrong way for the rotation and the set screw had come loose and on and on. So got another one on the road and set it up for the rest of the ride home but still had troubles. Thought it had to be because it was just a baby alt i got at a discount auto store on a Sunday on the road. Back home got a 63amp one wire unit as i thought the lack of charging on the replacement alt. had something to do with the exciter wiring.Used large washers and spacers to put preload on the shaft and tack welded the new flat blade fan to the shaft and then got the Love joy drilled and set screwed nicely and thought we were good to go. and we are in some ways but it acts more like a generator than an altenator. No problems with daylite running but the bus is set up with a car type lite switch so in park lite position, all the marker and running lites are on and then in full headlite position add all 4 headlites and its too much. Tim the shaft is coming from the rearmost upper PTO opening, it is on the lsft of the rear of the engine veiwing from the trans. the one just foward of it towards the front of the bus (on the right veiwing from trans)is running the updated air compressor. We are running so will wait and check out some other units and the salvage yards and when we get home and off THIS SLOW DIAL UP CONNECTION!!!!! post and check out some pictures. The only thing slower than this dial up is the bus! I remember why we are doing a powertrain swap in the other coach, but the Silversides is fun to drive. If we leave now we could be there by the 4th of July. Chessie and Jr and everyone else thanks for all the replies, and Jack we will check out PowerTech its on the to do list. thanks again Dave and Dori in Dori's new bus. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 828 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
If you run the heater motors at night while all the other lights are on, there is no way a 63 amp alternator is going to keep up.Plus if the batteries are down, it's going to need all that just to charge them. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 346 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
This is an automotive alternator, right? So think about how it was designed to be used! The crank pulley is probably three to four times the size of the pulley on the alternator, meaning that on a gas engine, belt driven auto application, the alternator is being turned at least a thousand rpm at idle. OTR at 60 mph is going to equal 5 grand. Now we hook it up directly to a cam shaft that will be turning about 400 at idle, and no more than 2100 at full throttle, and wonder why it doesn't put out much? G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 194 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.52 Rating: N/A |
Most truck supply places havre brand new 130A alts from Prestolite (the alts are Leece Neville that Prestolite bought )for $130-$150 or so. If you install a truck unit it will put out rated amps at hot temps , something the tiny car stuff cant do. I do not know if the 24V engine drive could be run with a 12V reg to get 12V?\ FF | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 209 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.233.230 Rating: |
There are a good many 24V bus conversions using 12V Delco and other automotive alts to maintain 12V house battery bank. They will charge large battery banks. George is probably stating the problem. Using the gear drive isn't allowing sufficient output/RPM. And there's no way to change the RPM. But, the charge output could be radically increased by using one of the later zero-off charging alternators. Late model automotive alternators put out 30 amps idling (1000 RPM alternator speed?). Dave should be able to get by with that config. I doubt the old bus generator charged much, if at all, at idle? Heat shouldn't be an issue. Auto under hood temps are much higher than a bus engine room. The real heat would only come from the charge rate. I would suggest Dave turn all power needs 'on' while accurately monitoring the resulting amp load. Determine the max load, and work from there. Once the demands are known, the issue can resolved. Another interesting bit of data would be a charge profile of the existing alternator. What does it charge at idle, and what is the output against the gov? Dave, does your engine have a spare belt groove on the harmonic balance? If no drive pully, is there an accessory pully that could be bolted to the balancer? Or if driving the alternator from the harmonic bal is not going to happen--as John sez, find a pully drive unit and install it. Lose the Lovejoy drive. Fabricating a mount for a belt drive truck or automotive alternator would be easy. While you're fabricating, you could assure that the alternator fan is turning in the correct direction. The fans operate as a centrifuge...they draw air in from the rear (opposite the fan end) of the alternator. Dave, are you using the OEM bus heat and are you running an inverter off the crank batteries? JR | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.148.149 Rating: N/A |
dave I am in Ocala and if you need any help ,my profile has the phone numbers to call. Gomer | ||
| FloridaCliff (Floridacracker)
Registered Member Username: Floridacracker Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 65.33.18.155 Rating: N/A |
Dave, Was that you I saw in Belleview yesterday???? Nice looking coach! Wished I had been reading this thread earlier. Happy to help if needed also. Cliff | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 216 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 12.181.45.217 Rating: N/A |
Hey Everyone, thanks again. George is right,and that was what i figured out it aint turning high enough except at max rpm. its 14.4 at the max. Since the air comprresser is now in the alt spot we would have to get the mci adapter hsg or (more likely) do a belt drive either off this shaft or other. Cliff that was us in Bellview, and then we went 301 to webster checked out the old stuff back roads up to Leesburg and figured out a nice way to set a 8kw lenght ways into the existing comp. w/o moving the fuel tank . Just gonna put the gen side 12" into the next bay on the oposite side. PowerTech guys were very nice and helpfull wish they had responded to my emails, but Joe and Chris were great. Gomer thnks for the offer, we will have to stop by and check out your bus. Today we are running around doing errands and family stuff, tomorow another bus ride heading east to DeLeon Springs. JR the newer alt idea is what the Detroit dealer was thinking also, they are wound different and do put out more at an idle.I'm at my sisters and using a cable modem feel like im back into the future! Thanks again. Dave and Dori | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 246 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 208.6.60.4 Rating: N/A |
Dave, the P.O. of our 4104 had mounted a car type one wire alt in back of the 6-71 with a pulley drive built out of part of the old original oil cooled generator. His rig had some problems which we have overcome, one by one. First, he had it driving 1:1 at the speed the generator shaft used to run. (Keep in mind that the big oil cooled gens & alts have a planetary overdrive built into them.) There is a sun gear bolted to the back of the cam gear. The gen or alt has a small spur gear that runs at about 3:1 on it. Thats why the alt housing has an offset built into it. We have a pulley on the output that drives the car alt at 2:1 so at 600RPM idle, we are at about 1800 RPMs. By that math, at 1800 we are at 5400 rpms. We did have to relocate the car alt after we had several fail. The P.O. had fabricated a bracket that had the alternator mounted towards the front of the bus, right behind the exhaust manifold. When the bus ran down the road, the radiator fan washed that manifold heat right into the alternator. I made a different mount that has the alternator above the pulley drive, in line with the valve cover and we haven't had any problem since. We have a single automotive belt about 22 inches long turning a 100 amp alternator. We carry a spare & have changed it once in 40,000 miles because it was cracked but hadn't failed yet. It doesn't have to be real tight as it just turns the alt & has a half pulley of contact on both. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.22 Rating: N/A |
Heat shouldn't be an issue. Auto under hood temps are much higher than a bus engine room. The real heat would only come from the charge rate. Wrong heat concern, Turning on the Coach Heat causes an 80A blower to operate to distribute the air. There are 2 of these on the '06 but only one to feed on the '04. But 80A plus lights and it adds up. FF | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 250 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 208.6.60.4 Rating: N/A |
Heat IS an issue to alternator life. I have never seen a car or truck where the alt is BEHIND the exhaust manifold! Normally they are in FRONT of the engine where the heat from the radiator is all you have to worry about. The nicest, easiest spot to mount a belt driven alt in an '04 is behind the manifold to the right of the old gen mount. Unfortunately, in that spot the radiator fan washes the manifold heat right into the alt, just a few inches away. I'm just reporting the 3 failed alternators when ours was mounted there and the none in the 7 years after I mounted it above the gen drive spot. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 837 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
I think that Fred is right...Car in traffic in summer, hood closed, AC on, cooling fan going on and off, alternator charging heavily at idle speed. It is going to get a lot hotter than in an 04 at the back of engine. Diesels make heat when fan speed is moving a lot of air past parts, and diesel exhaust manifold is cooler at idle than a car, except when really working. That is one reason I recommended a HD truck alternator. they are designed to put out full amperage for hours on end without failure with the heat and vibration especially of a diesel engine.They use better insualting coatings on the wiring inside the alt for this reason. Electric motors are like this in that some are rated for higher operating temps with different classes of insulation. Btw the Leece Neville that is on my coach has been on there for at least 150,000 with NO problem, right within 4 inches of the manifold. the pulley and fins face the end of engine and exhaust manifold. 160 AMP output. Not necessarily a fan of Leece Neville, but that is what was available at the time in that amperage for a very reasonable price. | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 216.163.57.205 Rating: N/A |
I'm not familiar with Leece Neville, but I am familiar with exhaust heat in a bus. If a bad muffler can catch your wooden floor on fire, a good manifold can certainly still cook a standard auto alternator, especially if the cooling fan is directing all that heat right to the windings. I belive that the heat the alternator itself creates is probably pretty significant. I experimented with using a newly rebuilt Chrysler 100 amp alternator with an old kick start Maytag gas engine and it did not have the horsepower to turn it once energized. Gotta be some strong magnetic field! Glenn |
