| Author | Message | ||
| Dave Catron (Cruiser112)
Registered Member Username: Cruiser112 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.161.14.86 Rating: N/A |
I have realized my dream of owning a scenicruiser, now to start to convert it. I want to lower the pass. side floor. The AC and heat lines are no problem, but I keep hearing that the plywood floor is structural to the bus. I can't see how lowering the floor can hurt the unibody. Can anyone fill me in on the potential problems and solutions to floor lowering. Thanks | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 198.136.32.74 Rating: N/A |
Welcome aboard. I am WAY jealous, congrats on yer scenic! Sure someone will pipe up soon with more detailed info, but it seems the wood flooring will add some stability to the structure once it is fastened in place. Pulling it up should not be a problem. I would weld in the lower floor supports where I want them before cuttin gthe old ones out, to prevent any chance of sagging or twisting. We need pictures ya know?! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 391 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
you can't lower the floor you can't raise the roof you can't find parts LOL, now that that's been said . . . . You may as well admit defeat & give her to me.  No? Good, nice to have friends as interested in these as I am. Study the structure & make your modifications in keeping with the original structure. The plywood is structural in shear, so be sure to secure it accordingly. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.135 Rating: N/A |
I want to lower the pass. side floor. Would be only a bit longer and lowering BOTH sides may have a more useful result. Only time I saw it done right,was on a unit owned by the master chief instructor at Great Lakes, took almost a year!! with AV tin knocker students as cheapo (but highly skilled)labor . It is a very long and complex modification with MAJOR structural elements. FF | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 392 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
If lowering the drive side, you will need to deal with the shifter linkage - just one more PITA (And there is the corresponding loss of bay space.) IF you are just looking for a wider aisle, then that shouldn't be too big of an impact on the overall structure if you do it in keeping with what's there. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 856 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
Would it be easier to modify a 4905 to look like a scenic cruiser As rare as Scenics are getting, if you attempt this PLEASE finish it. Many times people attempt major changes, lose interest halfway through the job because they didn't realize how much work it was, run out of money, job change, etc and the otherwise good coach ends up getting scrapped. If you do attempt this, evenly support the body in several places along each side and completely level supported body to avoid any kind of structual deformation issues during the process. Remember that some supports may settle over time if support surface is soil, sand or macaddam.You can check and correct occasionally if needed.Provide a wide surface under each support. Concrete floor would be desireable, but most of us don't have that luxury.This could be setting for quite a while till you get it done. It should be really nice if you accomplish it. Fred is right, do both sides if you attempt this. You'll want to replace the flooring with premium quality marine plywood with multiply. I believe that it could be more than an inch thick.They use a special wide, thin headed bolt on many coaches to attach the flooring to the body; you'll probably have to burn the old ones out with a torch if they are rusted bad. Fred can probably help you with sources of this plywood. Someone else here probably knows where you can obtain those bolts, if that is what is used.Good Luck | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 857 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
Would it be easier to modify a 4905 to look like a scenic cruiser As rare as Scenics are getting, if you attempt this PLEASE finish it. Many times people attempt major changes, lose interest halfway through the job because they didn't realize how much work it was, run out of money, job change, etc and the otherwise good coach ends up getting scrapped. If you do attempt this, evenly support the body in several places along each side and completely level supported body to avoid any kind of structual deformation issues during the process. Remember that some supports may settle over time if support surface is soil, sand or macaddam.Provide a wide surface under each support. Concrete floor would be desireable, but most of us don't have that luxury.This could be setting for quite a while till you get it done. It should be really nice if you accomplish it. Fred is right, do both sides if you attempt this. You'll want to replace the flooring with premium quality marine plywood with multiply. I believe that it may be more than an inch thick. Fred can probably help you with sources of this plywood.Good Luck | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 217 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.233.230 Rating: N/A |
I don't know Bo about a Scenic Cruiser, but, you can get around the shift linkage interference by going to an automatic transmission. That would make a much nicer RV. Could even go with a DDEC 8V92 and have a really upscale power train. Would be almost bolt-in change. Kyle can explain how this could be done!? BTW, why lower only one side? Seems as though that would tend to 'rack' the bus when stresses are induced. Odd dynamics at the least. While we're doing Scenics, who owns the stretched red scenic that visits Arcadia? Dave, you definitely should see that one! Gary probably has pix posted on his 'converter 101' album site. JR | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 393 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.12.101.135 Rating: N/A |
The Red one is Pat McNeil's. He basically built a whole new frame when he stretched & raised the roof. The lower siding is polished stainless. The reason to lower one side only goes back to needs based on desired floor plan. Why limit yourself to the 8v92? Almost any 4-stroke will fit & it is a T-drive with a long driveshaft & ~12 inches from the crankshaft pulley to the bumper! Tons of room back there Oh, the turn radius is 42 ft. So they easily fit in the driveway. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 858 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
Why limit yourself to an 8-92......why not put in a 12V92? Screw the wimpy 4 strokes! | ||
| Jeffrey Smith (Greenhornet)
Registered Member Username: Greenhornet Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 198.136.32.74 Rating: N/A |
"Oh, the turn radius is 42 ft. So they easily fit in the driveway." Kyle Yeah! Mine! You have too many! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 394 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
There ain't no such thing as too many Scenicruisers. I'm currently working on getting the 5th one home. If 'Jay' will ever follow up & call the guy he told me about, AND IF it works out, I'll drive #6 home. Then there is another without an engine that may pose possibilities . . . So far, so good. Now if only I can get one that actually runs. . . . If you're not picky, it is easy to own one. It just takes time & $$$. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 864 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5 Rating: N/A |
Hey! let's get that grass mowed. We don't want to have to turn you into the county weed control Police. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 394 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.50.170 Rating: N/A |
That's already been done. Thanks to a Hoyt Axton fan that works for the county, I have a little more understanding concerning code violations. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 863 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.5  Rating: N/A |
On a very quiet day, can you here them talking? What do they say?..... Hey! you just cut me off! #@**%#@ or Man! I hate those Eagles when we get behind them on a hill and can't pass. or MCI???? they call that a bus? Bwahahaha! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 395 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.50.170 Rating: N/A |
Man, retirement is great! nothing to do & all day to do it! & on top of that, we're still loved & the objects of desire. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 357 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Kyle, If you're serious, I know where there are two more. In the high desert, so no rust, and from a 1/4 mi away, they look pretty complete. George | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.64.243.73 Rating: N/A |
if anyone has any useful pictures of scenics with lowered floors, i'd love to see how other people have done this. on most scenic conversions, the floor is left alone because it is part of what keeps the bus square. on the scenic, the floor that isn't the center aisle is too high for me to comfortably just raise the center aisle, so i need to drop the floor, or live with the center aisle. (not out of the question, it's not that big of a deal unless you absolutely have to have a side aisle coach, which i do not) if a floor drop is done, it's usually only the passenger side, because doing the drivers side requires moving air tanks and the shift linkage, which, if you are keeping the original engine and transmission, is a huge pain. as many of you know, i'm in the design stages on mine, and the goal is a series 60 with a 9/10/13 speed eaton autoshift. at the moment, i'm seriously considering making the bus mid engine and tandem drive like a crown. (in essence, shoving the entire drivetrain from a modern class 8 truck under it) this would of course give me the original engine compartment as a garage for a small car, among other things. dry sump parts for a series 60 are definitely a "build it yourself" kind of thing -dd | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1176 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.66.116 Rating: N/A |
-dd, I've seen several successful 4106 roof raises, but the only case that I know of of somebody lowering the floors in a 4501 was a failure of the upper cabin. The skin split in several places; the owner doubled the skin to stop it from spreading. The coach hasn't moved in some time. I would think that it would be a bit safer to raise the roof than lower the floor. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.64.243.73 Rating: N/A |
but it looks so ugly... :/ (sorry, pat's cruiser is sweet, but the lines aren't to my tastes) ... unless you have a suggestion on that? -dd | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 398 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
Raising the roof will ruin the lines of a 4501. If you're gonna go to that kind of trouble, you might be better off starting with a Crown I've seen the floors lowered both ways - right & wrong. If you have a good sense for how the structure works & can understand monoque structures why GM did it the way they did, then you should be able to lower the floor with no major problems. HOWEVER, if you don't have that sense, you will probably make a huge mess of the bus. I saw one where the owner was so proud of the fact he removed all the 'un-necessary' structure when he converted his. The interior was as nice as you will ever find, but, man oh man, did that bus ever squeak & rattle! On 011, someone started lowering the floors in the WRONG way, it is a mess. I believe Pat McNeil lowered his floors, raised the roof & stretched the length to 45feet! & it ain't broke in half yet. Bill Dumas lowered the floor in his ~15 years ago, Frank Mooney has it now & as far as I know, it is running strong with no problems. So it can be done sucessfully, problem is that it is easier to do it wrong  | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 270 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.64.243.73 Rating: N/A |
does anyone have any pictures of this kind of work? both the right way and the wrong way? i'm trying to compile a lot of this information before it's lost, ya know? -dd | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 399 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
Bus Conversion Magazine February 1999 has an article on the 4501 Bill Dumas converted |