| Author |
Message |
Jason (24.217.113.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 4:28 pm: | |
I know that there are codes for Electric and LP gas configurations, but other than the rule that states the black/grey tanks has to be drained from the back, left side of the coach, is there any other codes for plumbing or toilet placement? What about interior placement of furniture and things like that? Am I going to get into trouble for putting a house type couch and chairs in my bus? I have an aviation backround with electricity so I won't have a problem with that. |
Scott Whitney (24.205.239.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 7:50 pm: | |
There are a lot of little things that you might not think of in the code. Things like where the genset muffler exhaust can be placed, how long the shore cord should be, where propane tanks can be stored and how they should be vented, the diameter of drain and vent for black and grey tanks etc.
The only thing specific to your toilet question I can think of is that it should be darn near directly over the black tank. In scanning the code just now, I don't see where it says that, but I am pretty sure it needs to be directly over the tank or at a very steep slope to the tank.
The NFPA code does not address furniture and I doubt the NEC does either. But common sense tells me to bolt down anything that I am not prepared to get hit the back of the head with.
(Although, in my current state of converison, there is crap all over the place - just hope it never gets airborne!)
Scott |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 9:58 pm: | |
...although I've always wondered just how many people have actually been stopped and inspected for things like electrical shore cord length, vent diameters, etc...?? I can imagine that a lot of folks have been looked at for brakes and tires at checkpoints; you'd better have that fire extinguisher and "triangle" emergency marker kit on board, and I know there are some serious rules regarding propane that are there for a very good reason, but I drove a totally propane powered 40' conversion for over 100,000 miles, all over the US and in Canada, and never once even had to stop at a weigh station or checkpoint, let alone have any officer stop me or even ask anything, other than an occasional comment like "nice bus"....
I'd wonder who's task it would be to know all the codes and enforce them?Ê Now I could understand that if you got in a crash and had a piece of junk conversion that broke all the rules, you'd probably find yerself in some serious poo-poo, but it seems to me that being sensible in what you do, not mickey-mousing stuff and doing good work would suffice...
I'm opened to comments here...
Cheers
Gary |
Scott Whitney (24.205.239.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 11:19 pm: | |
I don't think the code is law. As far as I know, someone can convert anything and break every code in the book and still be legal to drive on the highways. (assuming no explicit vehicle laws are broken) If I am not mistaken, the code as it relates to RVs, is sort of a self-regulating thing in the industry.
When it comes to lawsuits and insurance payouts is where the code may come into play. You can sue anyone for negligence. And the insurance company probably has plenty of clauses relieving them for paying out when such negligence has occurred. I beleive it would be up to a judge to decide upon the negligence and THAT is where following or not follwing the code would probably be most relevant.
If an accident happened, and someone were hurt or property damaged, the plantiff might be able to prove that ignoring the code was negligence and that the defendant was liable for any damage.
But I am no lawyer. I am chosing to follow the code where I think it is practical and important. I'll probably ignore it in some places.
Ex. Code requires fixed propane tanks which have their valves out of reach from the edge of the coach to have a normally-closed electric shut-off valve. That means I have to burn electricity 24/7 holding that valve open if I want to use propane. So I will probably not follow this bit of code.
I happen to have a scrap about 15' long of four conductor 6 gauge cable that would make a nice 50A shore cord. Code requires, I think 25 or 30 feet. So I may ignore this piece of code, too, as I see no reason that 15' is not adequate. If I can't get within 15 feet of the hook-ups, I can use an extension. I'll use my common sense and not string it up in midair making a tripping hazzard.
Anyway, I doubt many coaches are 100% to code. But the code provides a good guide to what is safe and what works well.
Some would contend the code is written by the RV mfrs for their own ease of cheapo manufacture. But I won't delve into that one.
Scott |
Dwight (67.210.87.91)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 12:34 am: | |
Just a few comments (rvia code as I understand it)
the hook up compartment, passenger side not to exceed 15 feet from the rear
holding tank vent 1 1/2" minimum
generator compartment, metal lined
sewage drain 3"
disconnect 18" from main panel ??
suggestions
water pressure regulator
inline water filter
do-nut seal
Y water hose adapter
30 amp male to 50 amp female adapter (if you have 50 amp plug from the bus)
15 amp male to 30 amp female adapter
carry at least 50' of wire and water hose, I have used more at times... |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 1:04 am: | |
Interesting! Is there an online version of "da code" for RV's?
So far the things you've mentioned make sense, although I personally would not mess with anything outside of propane regulations....I have a healthy respect for the stuff as I work with it every day (glassblowing), I've also taken a week long intensive on propane conversions, saw a movie of an RV guy who's propane tank burst valve went off, caught fire, and fortunately for him he had the safety exhaust properly vented to the upper rear of his vehicle... he actually drove around on the freeway for an hour or so with a 20' flame blowing out of his roof until the tank finally refrigerated enough for him to safely stop!!... and I actually personally witnessed a guy filling an RV propane tank "outside", the overflow ran along the ground for 100 feet and caught the water heater in a neighboring building.. **all outside in unenclosed space mind you** the thing blew windows out for 4 blocks, lit an entire side of a painted concrete building on fire (the paint) and knocked a D-6 cat on it's side, all at once. Fortunately the guy was in the head and no one got hurt, but it was a hellofa boom!!! So I can see the reason for the solenoid...if things go wrong and you can't get to that valve, it would be nice to be able to turn it off anyway....
Cheers!
Gary |
Jason (24.217.113.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 1:49 am: | |
Where can I get a copy of the codes? Thanks guys for your help. I don't know how I would get this project done if this group wasn't around. |
Scott Whitney (24.205.239.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 2:49 am: | |
NFPA 1192 (RV stuff) is available at (800) 344-3555. Or search Amazon.com for it.
The new NEC just came out. Might get a bargain on the old edition or pay retail for the new version.
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/
Apparently if you shop around you can get better deals elsewhere. George Myers lists the place he bought his copy in his article in this month's BCM. I forget off hand where it was he bought it.
Scott |
FAST FRED (63.215.237.241)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 5:32 am: | |
The "Code" is a self protection legal device for the RV industry.
There are unquestionably some good stuff in it , but much of the code is only to "legalize " very shoddy practices.
Anything that is the lowest cost , simplest to instal gets in the RV code.
For example , you could not purchase a car , motorcycly truck , boat or air craft for 75 years that has solid copper wire merely stuck under a screw terminal, but its CODE! in an RV.
Use the code as a guide , not a bible , as your NOT a RVIA Mfg, just a backyard amateur doing the best workmanship you can.
I use Marine Boat cable ,(Anchor) for all my wiring with properly connected cable terminals installed mechanically and electrically.
Would meet any aircraft or marine code easily , but too costly and expensive for the RV "Industry" , so its not approved , as cheap romex or THNN is.
Your the one that will have to FIX the coach when its done , so use the BEST , even when its not the cheapest.
The difference between superb Quality marine ( US CG Aproved} circuit breakers and switch pannels would be seen by a blind man, but the RVIA uses the house code for huge breaker boxes , designed for a house basement, with loads of room for an indifferent "electrican" to work.
The High end mfg toss the parts of the code that suck, Custom Coach uses the best , and hasen't been put out of business by endless streams of Liars for Hire, yet.
No doubt GM will give the speel on how good the code is.
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (63.15.244.161)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 7:33 am: | |
I agree with Fred, I took the approach when building mine, that the code was there for various purposes, just find the purpose and decide for yourself.
For instance, I found it requires a drivers side rear dump valve. That is there to standardize campground and campers, and is good. I elected to put dump valves on the right AND left, just to be prepared. Not code, just an improvement.
I was about to run my shore power cord all the way to the rear of the bus from the front elec boxes for convenience of hookups. Code says it must exit the bus as I recall within 3 feet of the box. Got to thinking about that, do we REALLY want 50a service running 25 feet thru the bowels of the bus? Nope, done it according to code because it was a good thing and safer I felt. |
DaveD (206.47.98.152)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 8:48 am: | |
Having been involved in product performance and safety testing for a great portion of my career, and also having been a member and of a fair number of standards developing technical committees, I tend to be biased towards following codes. They do help ensure compatibility, protect from safety hazards and generally provide for reasonable durability. Consensus based standards, which are the basis of many codes, are developed using specific terms of references designed to ensure balanced representation so that manufacturers', users' and where appropriate, regulators' interests are all considered (manufacturers, having the most at stake, do tend to put the most effort and investment in the process). Most Standards Development Organizations (SDOs)have rules that prevent any discussion of costs at standards meetings. These and other rules are there to prevent violation of anti-trust legistation. There have been some abuses in the past where these rules weren't in place. Unfortunately where things are legislated, law makers sometimes push certain requirements into law, which are possibly even well-meant, but are poorly thought out and don't really meet any legitimate concerns or provide any better levels of protection.
Just my 2 cents, FWIW.
DaveD |
John Biundo (Jbiundo) (64.175.36.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 4:40 pm: | |
Here's a naive point of view on codes (never having really studied them).
It seems to me that they're invaluable in protecting future owners and/or service technicians. I've seen examples (in residential wiring) where an electrician (or, worse yet, a naive cable TV installer) assumed that wires would/wouldn't be located in a certain location, only to find out they were wrong.
It seems that this could easily lead to disaster (for instance, cutting through a wall where "there should never be a hot wire").
If you don't follow code, for one of the seemingly legitimate reasons cited above, I think the burden is on you to ENSURE, 100% infallibly, that nobody pays the consequences in the future. This might mean, for example, permanently installed labelling.
Just my .02 worth.
john |
doug d (206.71.111.239)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 5:20 pm: | |
I agree with a lot of what is on the board on this subjet, but I have to respectfully say that a few others are a little off the mark in one respect. The NFPA for one is far above the "owned by the industry" level. The codes and standards they create, and which are voluntary to follow unless a government agency with the proper authority accepts, is a well thought program. The "codes" are not perfect, but they are a long shot ahead of the way things were before the "codes" were thought up. Representation is not just industry, they are heavily firefighting and science staffed with a lot of testing to back things up.
I also have to agree that, as a "wannabe/gonnabe" I will follow the codes unless there is a really good reason to do otherwise. One case in point will be the electrical part since I intend to do things more on the scale of the marine" code and not the "house" code. An RV is more like a boat than a house!
My 2Cents. |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 5:28 pm: | |
Just a funny story about codes, not necessarily much to do with buses; I had an electrical inspector come by my place and rag on me for having scotch twist-locks connecting ground wires in some of my boxes. He said they needed to be crimped. Now anyone in the electrical industry knows that a hand-made crimp is probably the worst failure-prone connection that can be made, and so I got into a little arguement with him. I lost. My final thought to him was "why don't I solder them together first, then crimp them for you as well?" his answer was:
"NO...Son, Solder is not in the code. It doesn't matter what is right or what is better or what is practical... it's what the code says that matters, period."
Ugh. I criped the wires, and changed them back to twistlocks when he left.... |
Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.55.131)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 12:17 pm: | |
Hi folks,
As many of you know, I am a career firefighter and, as such, have a particular affinity to the NFPA.
The topic comes up all the time: Should our service (firefighting) absolutely comply with the NFPA? Some fire departments do. The one I work for doesn't, in all instances. Our belief is that, although the NFPA fathers' opinions/guidelines are excellent, they are still only opinions. Put your guideline in our hands and allow us to disprove its principals, we say. I could site example after example, but to save space, I will only offer the following...
The wisest thing for you to do, if you don't know any better, is to go by code. If you have a mind to set up your rig in a fashion which circumvents a particular code (NFPA, NEC, etc.) or is so loosely interpreted within the code as to be deemed non-code compliant, first pick up the phone and have a little chat with your insurer. The answer you want is, if a component which makes up part of your rig fails, an accident or incident occurs and that component did not meet a code reference, will your insurance company deny a claim.
If the answer is yes, that they will deny a claim, conduct yourself accordingly. If they WILL pay a claim, then you are good to go with your great idea.
I always picture myself standing in a witness box, looking up at the judge saying, "I did it that way, sir, because I read it on an Internet bulletin board".
Regards,
Ian Giffin
www.busnut.com |
DaveD (206.47.98.152)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 5:56 pm: | |
Codes do work. Recently an automotive repair shop in the same complex where my son works had a disastrous fire. It started after hours in a vehicle in the shop and destroyed everything in the shop, including other cars, tools; even the roof collapsed. This shop is one of about 8 automotive shops in the same building. Even though the adjacent shops suffered some smoke and water damage, they were back in business within short order. The fire was contained in the shop where it originated, due to the efforts of firefighters and also due to the requirement for firewalls between each of the premises in the complex. That's an example of the kind of value codes provide. |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 2:58 am: | |
I'd venture a guess that a good commercial fire sprinkler system helped a lot too? |
Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.7)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 7:16 am: | |
Scott,
I would think that it wasn't a very "good" fire protection system that allowed so much damage in the area of fire origin.
Reconsider the lack of a cutoff valve for two reasons:
First, in an accident the need to quickly shut off the propane supply is critical (assumming that you, like 80% of the RV users, run with your propane on). My shut off is connected to the propane leak detector (see reason two) and everyone in the coach receives a pretrip briefing that includes how to operate the shut off in case of accident.
Second, propane leak detectors that do not support an automatic shut off only perform half the function. These units use very little energy, less than the electroinics in your refrigerator when it is operating on propane. Should a leak develop when you are away, the alarm will likely not alert anyone in time to stop a disaster.
FWIW,
Steve G. |
FAST FRED (65.58.188.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 1:05 pm: | |
The electronics of the leak detector are minor , BUT to operate they cut the power from a solenoid valve that DOES eat about an amp an hour.
So leaving the coach for a couple of weeks , with food in the fridge becomes really difficult.
Cold BEER anyone?
FAST FRED |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 1:20 pm: | |
After posting the other day about the normally closed propane shut-off valve, I started rethinking it. My permenent tank (that has the valves out of reach) only supplies my genset and the stove/oven. My portables on the other side of the coach supply everything else. (heaters, fridge, hot water) The two propane systems are totally independant of each other.
So actually, I COULD use a NC electric shut-off valve and just turn it off when not needed. If I am running the genset, there is plenty of power anyway. If I am cooking, it is only for a short time so the electric use is minimal.
What I wanted to avoid was a constant drain from the valve all day, every day. But flipping a switch before cooking or running the genset and flipping it back when done is no big deal.
Only trouble is where to put that switch. Code says it should be in the compartment right next to the propane fill line. But for convenience, I'd want it inside by the genset panel or by the stove. It seems like I could wire the valve to be controlled by actually two switches.
A three way switch set-up (like used at each end of a hallway light) could work if I wired in an electric pilot light, next to each switch, to indicate if the propane were on or off.
Might work. . . I have a propane detector, but it doesn't have an auto-shut off feature. But the default would be to leave the propane for this system off unless running genset or cooking. The other system would be on all the time however for running the fridge etc. . .
Scott |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.210.119)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 2:04 pm: | |
I have never seen a motorhome with an electric shut-off valve on the propane supply. My Apollo has a normal wheel valve by the tank and that's it. I don't think my neighbor has one on his 3 year old stick'n'staple either, so why would I want one on my conversion? Just causes more drain on the batteries.
Peter. |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 3:49 pm: | |
The code only requires it when the tank's shut off valve is out of reach.
For example, my permanently mounted tank is bolted transversely across the coach with the valves in dead center. Fill and vent extensions are used to make filling a simple proceedure.
But it means that the tank's valves are four feet from the edge of the coach. A looooong stretch with half your body in a compartment. . . I did it this way to not waste so much valuable space along the edge of the bus.
To illustrate, this picture may help. The top of the picture is about the centerline of the bus. The bottom of the picture is almost to the outside edge of the bus. The view is a topview looking down thru removed flooring:
http://www.dustyfoot.com/pics/pic-043001-19-propaneplumb.jpg
For tanks that are easily reached from the outside edge of a compartment, the electric NC valve is not needed. (unless you want it rigged into the propane leak detector)
Scott |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.210.119)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 5:54 pm: | |
That would make sense.
How close to the tank does a shut-off valve have to be according to the codes?
Could you not run the feed pipe to an accessible point near the outside edge in iron pipe before it feeds anything? Maybe alongside the fill pipe?
Peter. |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 11:09 pm: | |
NFPA 1192, Sec. 2-2.7.2 LOCATION OF TANK APPURTENANCES
The manual control of the tank's shutoff valve, the LP-Gas fill connection, and the liquid level outage valve of permanently installed tanks shall be located no more than 18in. from the vehicle's outside wall. The LP-Gas fill connection and its liquid level outage valve shall be located with like requirements for LP-Gas pressure relief valves.
Exception: Vehicles shall be permitted to be equipped with a remotely controlled normally closed electronic shutoff valve installed on the high-pressure side of the LP-Gas regulator. A double back-flow valve shall be installed in the fill opening of the tank. The remote fill connection, liquid level outage valve, and electronic shutoff valve control shall be located within 18in. of the vehicle outside wall and shall be located in accordance with like requirements of LP-Gas pressure relief valves (see 2-2.8.3)
So. . . I don't see any reason, if I decided to install the switch at the remote fill location and a second one inside the coach that was more convenient to flip on and off, that would be against code in any way. Probably better than having none at all.
Scott |
Steven Gibbs (12.148.43.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 6:47 am: | |
Scott,
Since the NC valve needs power to operate you can have any number of switches, each of them wired in series. So one wire from your 12VDC to the first switch then to the second, third, etc. On my rig it is in series with my leak detector.
This would allow you to operate the valve from the inside during cooking or genset operation. Since the intent of the code is to allow rescue personnel to secure the propane from the outside, it does not matter how many other switches may already be in the off position.
Don't forget to make or purchase a sticker to go on the compartment door that this switch and presumably the remote fill is located. This compartment cannot be locked.
Another thing to consider is that most propane fill stations will not fill your tank unless they first shut off the supply to the coach and have everyone out. I have had some minor discussions with attendants that are not familar with the function of the shut off swtich. Although I have convinced them so far, I'm sure that not having a switch marked emergency shutoff would have resulted in my opening my old air conditioning compartment to access and close the valve or not being filled.
BTW, my system is modeled after what I saw on the Bounder Turbo Diesel. I got the remote fill system complete with mounting plate fill lines and shutoff switch from the parts department. However, that was a serious mistake since the part cost so much. After seeing what was involved, I could have built it myself.
FWIW,
Steve G. |
Phil (204.89.170.3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 8:09 am: | |
My Monaco pusher has the propane tank mounted between the frame rails with hose to the fill valve. The switch is mounted in the compartment with the fill valve and connected to the detector. It works well as when the tank is filled I simply shut off the switch and the propane guy is happy that all appliances are off. As the unit has all electronic pilots, reliting is not a problem. If I am not using the coach I simply shut it off, no power use. I would not own another RV without a propane detector wired to a shut off!! |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 3:28 pm: | |
You're right. Putting the switches in serious should work swimmingly. I didn't think of that. (Nice to learn of simple solutions!)
The place where I bought my propane tank gave me a few stickers to put on the propane compartment door. Red in color and clearly marks the propane inside.
My local propane dealer never seems to care whether my valves are on or off. I have asked him before if I need to close them, and he didn't care. But he doesn't want people in the bus when filling. I always extinguish all pilots before I even go to the filling station (fuel or propane).
But now my question: I thought I got a good deal on my propane detector for about $35 at a going out of business sale. I guess I have resigned to the fact that I ought to plumb in this NC propane valve now. I am wondering if I should hawk my old detector on eBay and buy a new one that has the shut-off feature? Or maybe just keep it and put it in another location in the bus. . .
Scott |
|