| Author |
Message |
Scott (152.163.195.202)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 11:58 am: | |
How would you determine the value of an old shell with a new professional conversion? If someone takes a 20 year old MCI or Eagle shell to a pro and spends a fortune on a top-of-the line conversion (we're talking a couple hundred K here), what would the resale value be? The value of the components? If the non-pro converter is not going to get much for his labor in resale, does the labor cost of the pro converter go down the drain too? Granted this is a huge financial mistake to do something like this in the first place, but any rules of thumb on resale value?
Scott
'89 Monaco, gonna getta bus |
Don KS/TX (63.15.249.173)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 12:41 pm: | |
Good question, and it has been discussed in detail many times on the discussion boards.
I have personally come to the belief that the best or nearest estimate, is that if you can get your parts cost back, you have probably hit the market top. So, the pro converters wages are lost, or if you do it yourself, your years of labor are for free. I guess that means, you better enjoy while you are doing it. I am in the process of selling mine now, and have it priced at parts cost. I will get back to you on that as to if I can get my parts cost back or not. :-) |
FAST FRED (65.58.184.79)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 6:00 am: | |
There is always residual value in labor, be it first time to hold a hammer , or Custom Coach.
The real question is what Value (if any ) will the next purchaser PAY for the labor?
Old Custom Coach prevost from the late 60's or early 70's seem to command between $60 and 80,000.
A good part of this is probably that the coach only has 200,000 or 300,000 thousand miles , to most it a new shell.
Almost any shell is today a $5000 to $10,000 in excellent condition, and it will always take at least $20,000 for the pile of parts new or used to create a functioning RV.
There are hundreds of folks that would like a moderate priced coach , and have less than the slightest ability to do a conversion.
One entire group of coach owners at a new years party was in this catagory , most didn't even know there is Da Book , or care.
These are your best customers ,
if its not so"My Way' , that it makes their head hurt.
Thats one reason I prefer the tried and true conversion systems , there much less frightning to the wannabe.
You will not get very much for thousands of hours of searching , innovating and converting, but you will get something, even if its only a faster sale , or better price than your pile of used hardware, and shell would get on E-bay.
The best to sell is a concept that can easily be understood. These folks are old enough to know there is NO Perfect for Everything coach.
SO in your VCR tape be honest , if its a post to post house bus say so,
if its set for wilderness camping , only coming out with the spring thaw say so.
Desperation is a poor motivator in a sales position, with time and a fair price you will get a reasonable return on your work.
A base price of between $30,000 and $40,000 seems to be what a FINISHED complete , drive away to the other coast conversin will go for.
Folks will pay loads less for a "project" perhaps only a small percentage of what the questionable pile of parts is worth.
A PDF {pass down file} is a requirement. If you create an AC system , is there a schematic?
If you install other items , is all the paperwork there, a sketch of the Unique mounting you used?
The value is in direct proportion to the FEAR if getting stuck with a huge expensive nightmare.
Keep those oil reports every 6000 miles as you change it. Keep a maint log , to show you DO flush and renew the DD antifreez every 3 years.
Keep a log on repairs so they know its a road ready unit in top shape.
NOT a drive till it won't and get it "fixed" rig.
You should be proud to show off why yours is more sane , practical , comfortable than a sticks and staples box.
FAST FRED |
Don KS/TX (63.15.244.243)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 7:38 am: | |
I quite agree with you Fred, and that strengthens my point.
If you take the 10K bus, add add 6k for a gen, 2k for an inverter, 3 k for some adequate tires, 10k for a paint job, you are at 31k before you even start to buy the insides. Even with a lot of unattractive dumpster diving equipment, you will be at the top of your 40k going price range by the time you buy the stuff to connect it all. There is an old 4104 for sale here locally, 22.5k for a bus that you could not start to build for twice that in parts alone, all super quality stuff, done without regards to cost, new michelins, alcoas, diesel genset, solar, all the really good stuff overhauled and all done right, absolutely ready to go to any coast immediately, and he cannot even find a buyer for it! |
Scott P. (152.163.204.201)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 11:53 am: | |
Fast Fred, I believe you have correctly identified the largest segment of "ready to go" conversion customer, $40K or less, they would like the quality of a bus, but are comparing what their money gets in a used "sticks & staples".
Look at my '89 Monaco Crown Royale for instance. I paid $35K, put another $5K into refurb. Look what you get: 8.3CTA 250 hp Cummins, 4 spd Allison, 2 spd 23,000lb Eaton axle, solid oak cabinets, air bag suspension, automatic leveling, 9000 awnings all around, two furnaces & a/c's, polished 22.5 alcoas, dash full of VDO gauges, saginaw integral p/s hardwood floors, ultraleather captains chairs, etc. It's probably worth $50-$55K.
Unfortunatly for bus sellers, most neophytes think my Monaco is a Bus, because is has the Cummins diesel and 22.5 alcoas. "Nice Bus" they say. How wrong they are. But compared to the Bounders and such they have looked at, you probably can't blame them. Unfortunately, more and more of late 80's era diesel MH's that originally cost $150-$200K are getting down into the sub $50K range, which will make it all the more difficult to sell a bus conversion.
Now what about the high end conversions? In 1990 a Prevost Le Mirage shell would have cost $210K, a nice conversion another $300K, $510K total. It's still gonna sell for at least $150K, or about 30% of its orig cost. Just about the same percentage residual value as any car or truck of the same vintage. No instant loss of the converters labor whatsoever. Why is that?
Now you take say a 1980 MCI-9 shell, which is probably every bit as good as the 1990 Prevost, blow $300k on a new high-eng conversion, and it is only worth $100k. What is going on?
Scott P. |
Lin (65.184.0.189)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 2:16 pm: | |
Also, one must not forget finanacing. Banks can loan money on that Monaco, but not on a home conversion. That limits the buyer pool a great deal. I have been watching ebay and see conversions going as real bargains or not really going at all. A few months ago, a custom, commercially-done job with at least 100k into it went for 39K. A couple of weeks ago, a 1950's GM shell done as a quality conversion was begging to get about 10.5k, which would seem to day that a small age related difference in shell cost could amount to a large difference in resale. There are exceptions no doubt, but this is not a viable investment hobby. |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 2:45 pm: | |
Why does the Prevo fetch so much more than a compareable coach of different make? Good question. I think people may be paying as much as $50,000 more just for status. Some shoppers of bus conversions seem to be under the impression that Prevost and Wanderlodge are the ONLY bus conversions even available.
If I were going to build a high-end conversion and try to get my best resale value for it, it would be a Prevo for that reason. But if I wanted to build a budget bus for myself, with no regard to resale value, I'd not even consider a Prevo.
Scott |
FAST FRED (65.58.188.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 1:01 pm: | |
Actually Prevost are favored only because so many were converted from NEW.
So a 20-30
year old conversion is still NEW by bus milage standards.
Prevost would "floor plan" ( give an established conversion co.} the coach for a year to convert and sell, and Then get paid for the coach.
The non Prevosts were usually units taken out of service , although there are loads of Flexes that were new conversions.
Prevost makes a fine coach , although it would be 3rd or 4 th on my list , of "what if I hit the Lottery" style thinking.
FAST FRED |
dave (63.243.54.189)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 1:14 pm: | |
To remain only as dave for this.
A case history of our 81 mci9.
$16000 for shell put another $19000 in it which included labor for 2 of my men (my sister our bookkeeper kept track).
We had flexsteel leather sofas, and chairs, inverter, generator, awning, etc. etc a very usable RV.
Drove it for 2 1/2 years to the tune of 25k miles and sold it for 60k just to do another which is now underway.
Heck I figure the usage was worth something so 60k was a depreciated value.
Parked it in my front yard sold in 3 weeks.
Had up to 5 lookers a day 2 on average.
Get a solid shell do a nice job add some shine and your time will not be wasted.
Oh by the way most everyone who looked at ours had the money alot of retirees cashing out to go on the road debt free. |
Scott Whitney (65.113.151.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 1:43 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
If you built a coach of high enough quality to sell for $60k and did it by only spending as much money as you say, then my hat's off to you.
But to be perfectly honest, shell cost aside, I can't quite figure out how you were able to buy all the parts AND pay two men wages for $19,000. I was just running thru some quick guesstimate calcs. . . .
Lets say you spent, of the $19k, half on parts half on labor. At $9.5k in labor, even at eight bucks an hour, for example, that comes out to only 1187 man hours. I know I have a lot more time than that in my bus and am hardly half way done.
And I am not quite sure how one could do a nice conversion with a parts budget of only $9.5k. A genset, inverter, batteries, some appliances and water tanks, would about use up that budget. That doesn't leave much for building materials, hardware, plumbing and all the little stuff that seems to nickle and dime me to death. Not to mention stuff like new windows, a paint job, interior decor items etc.
Anyway, I guess I am jealous that you were able to do a coach for such a slim budget and to pay someone else to do all the work. Would you be interested in breaking down costs in a bit more detail?
Scott |
dave (63.243.53.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 6:41 pm: | |
Scott I was quite lucky on a few items and good finds at the rv salvage yard.
3 tanks out of a new Coachmen for $150
Inverter Hearts w/ charger closeout at west marine $300
Genny $1200 6.5 ohno
Interior takeout from a new Americian Dream Owner wanted different color leather sofa $300 chairs $750 both this was at a RV dealer.
But we hustled me and 2 guys removed ALL alum skin and recovered with new in 2 days.
etc, etc
Oh by the way my sister fussed that it cost that much (older sister). |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.27.88.72)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 11:29 pm: | |
Prevost commands more money and sells easier than a converted from new MCI. That was my experience when shopping. Not as much market for an MCI conversion. Even though MCI may have some better features. So if resale is important, the name helps. If you want a fine, maybe the finest coach to keep, MCI is great. So is GM. I guess they'll never let me in the Prevost Prouds after this post.
Fact is they are all fine coaches and all many times better than a motorhome.
Prices are down now because of the economy and the market and people travelling less after 9/11. They will probably go back up some but there is still a flood of conversions to come on the market used. Build for yourself. |
Scott P. (64.12.106.31)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:56 am: | |
Seems to me that the resale floor on a Prevost Le Mirage first-class conversion is somewhere around $150k, even for the early 80's. For whatever reason, an MCI or Eagle bottoms out at about half that. There is no indication that these "floors" have changed in the last few years. Like it or not, if you're gonna go high-end on your own conversion, it better be a Prevost if you want to get your money back when you sell. On the other hand, if you are buying someone elses conversion, the Prevost prices are insane! You can get a real bargain in a MCI or Eagle.
Scott P.
'89 Monaco
gonna getta bus, currently bottom-feeding the high-end stuff. |
johnwood (206.252.234.9)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 4:41 pm: | |
Ebay.com has 5 GMC coaches for sale for 35,000. all manual tranny. In case anyone outh there needs a fleet! Apparently three run and two are parts. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.33.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 5:59 pm: | |
They are all scenicruisers and are all automatic including one with a 10 speed auto so the ad says. The one in the pic has a Pittsburgh sign showing and one can see some rust stain marks down it.
Peter. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (67.212.30.45)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:32 pm: | |
$150,000 is the floor asking price for professionally converted Prevost LeMirages. You can get a better price and now is a good time.
If you want to buy one, add about $20,000 for after the sale repairs and maintenance needed. There are a lot of expensive systems on these conversions and they often need some maintenance soon after purchase. Great conversions, just don't get surprised by the fact that you own and maintain a vehicle that would be over $500K new.
Same rule as boats and planes: you are paying to maintain the class and price that you buy not a percentage of your purchase price. Buy a $600K twin aircraft used for $50K, you still pay for maintenance on a $600K aircraft. Buses however are not as pricey to maintain as boats and aircraft.
MCI asking price was similar to Prevost when I looked, but did not sell as quickly so the final price was probably lower.
If the money is available at all I would recommend going with a mid to late 80s XL (102" wide) model and bargaining hard. It should sell much better in the future. All converters were not equal. Some older ones I looked at looked dated and cheap inside. Some had lasting class from the day they were built. |
Tony H. (Bluegrass) (216.4.232.225)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:12 pm: | |
I have an 85 Eagle model 10 for sale If anyone Is Interested, I have 20,000 In It and have not started on the Inside, that Is what I want for It
It has new Brakes,2 new tie rods, new Tires on Aluminum wheels, 6v92 with Allison Automatic, all the Fluid has been changed except the Trans Fluid
This Is an ex-Huston Metro Bus |
Scott P. (64.12.102.153)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:01 am: | |
Steven, are you saying you think older Prevost conversions will appreciate in value in the future? That prices are temporarily depressed? Why so? If true, I'm getting my wallet out!
Scott P. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.27.88.6)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 8:44 pm: | |
They may not appreciate, but they will not depreciate much either. I believe that they will all depreciate eventually, though. It's just that Prevost has the biggest group of non Bus People wanna owns, so until the market is totally saturated I believe values between $100K and 125K will be stable for quite a while. And then, many people are affected by the current economic slump, which we were told is over. That decreases the number of buyers right now. Most people who retire and buy a motorhome, buy a motorhome. They don't know the difference. If they ever figure it out, that is also a source of buyers.
So, yes I think prices are temporarily down. I think it is a good time to buy if it is in your budget. If the economy starts booming along again people will want luxury items. Thats what buses are, really.
Beware, though of a major rise in oil prices. Twice in the 70s used motorhome prices fell sharply with oil crises.
Or a change in overall demand from a change in peoples dreams and goals. Very few people NEED a bus. We might see a shift to the thinking of the 60s when material things were supposed to be less important than changing the world. |
Phil (204.89.170.3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 8:11 am: | |
It always amazes me that RV prices drop like a rock when fuel prices take a sharp hike. In the grand scheme of things fuel prices are minor. I drive my coach (2000 Monaco diesel) 12000-14000 miles a year. I average 10 MPG so I burn 1200-1300 gallons of diesel fuel. If the price of fuel goes up $1.00 a gallon it increases my operating cost $1200-$1400 dollars a year. This is compared to what I am losing in interest on a $90000.00 plus investment (plus depreciation, plus insurance, plus maintenance, plus,plus). While I would prefer to keep the extra money in my pocket, I am not going to alter my RVing life for a few hundred dollars!! I hear people complain about the cost of fuel and then pay $.75 a bottle ($3.00 a gallon) for water!
As we use this unit to travel to air shows, we usually have friends that go along. Most of teh time I only pay for a portion of the fuel if any. Its great to have friends!!!
From the sound of things on this board, I don't think too many of the contributors are going to sell their blood, sweat and tears (their buses) just because fuel prices take a jump. The people who do sell probably don't use their coaches that much.
Happy busing from a guy in a commercial RV (but not quite "stick and staples"). I find the board interesting and often very informative. |
R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.15)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 11:38 pm: | |
Phil, a bunch of us are not in the same "league" as you appear to be.
Some are, a few are way out front of you, but a lot of us are in the position of having to watch how SS, retirement and money market interest is spent to make it all come together and hopefully enjoy those years that we all waited for; it takes a lot of stretching and finagling perhaps) sometimes to make things work. Including fuel.
A fixed income (whether SS, retirement, interest income or any combination of the three) only goes so far and every buck counts. Some weeks the bills need paying, others, groceries to "keep up a front", still others, if the price is right, to take a trip to the local diesel pump for an outing.
Like the Apostle Paul, I've been up, and I've been down, and I know the difference and how to adjust.
I feel fortunate to be able to own a bus that is paid for, and each an every dime that is spent on it, the conversion and it's use is taken care of in green backs. The "interest" on the investement is in the enjoyment we get out of the use of the bus. No price can be attached to that. Some weekends, it (and we) sit at home, waiting for the necessary accumulation of cash to take a sojurn. Would that it were different, but Thank the Lord, we seem to always have something to look forward to. The next trip.
We all hope that in the grand scheme of things fuel will stay reasonable so that all who just want to use their bus for an important (to them) day out for a change of scene, it can be done.
Some where it has been said, it's a great, big, wonderful world we live in. Here's to bussin' it in comfort! ($$$$ and otherwise)
RCB |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (67.226.254.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:52 am: | |
I agree that the people on this board will not be selling their buses in a panic over rising fuel costs. I was, of course, referring to the market in general. That will affect the price for someone who wants to sell.
Actually, the easiest strategy for adapting to higher fuel costs would seem to be just staying in one place a little longer. Maybe a week instead of 2 days. Fuels costs are higher than campgroud prices. My wife is always wanting to stay longer in one place anyway. It takes a few extra days to get to know an area and not be just a tourist. The bus can also be stored and short trips back tracking taken in the toad. |
FAST FRRED (63.215.226.89)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 5:31 am: | |
Taken to another level ,
Campgrounds have a sliding scale of rates,
The longer you stay , the cheaper it gets.
This even works in "destination" parks that are really expensive.
We much prefer the State , County and City parks , not only are they usually less expensive , the pitch , the distance between sites is much better. ( They dont pay prop taxes).
Unfortunatly Woodels and other charge to list guides , dont give them space .
So STOP at the state line tourist bureau and ASK for the state campground listings.
You will be pleasntly supprised at how many GREAT places there are . low cost . and very pretty that are NOT in the guides.
BEWARE , many of the older campgrounds are only now having 40 ft wynnibuggys break a path thru the trees and shrubs, and tight curves.
Spend 10% of your time looling foward , and 90% looking at the mirrors to avoid solid trees!
FAST FRED |
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