| Author |
Message |
Joe Shelton (67.241.228.26)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 11:48 am: | |
I have a Webasto installed in my 4106. It works great and I love it. But when the system is on all the water lines carry the heated H2O; those going to the engine, those going to the 4 radiators in the living area, and the one in the water buy. I am considering installing isolation valves so that when I only want to pre-heat the engine the rest of the system will be isolated. And vice versa, when I only want to heat the living area the engine will be isolated. I am considering 12VDC actuated water valves. Any advice? Thanks, Joe |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.141.53.87)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 5:40 pm: | |
Sounds like a plan. Just be sure that you can't shut off both simultaneously unless you put in a bypass line. If you shut off all circulation, the Webasto overheat thermostat will shut the unit down. This will require a manual reset at the unit. Wire the solenoid valves to be "either/or" so that at least one loop will be open. While the engine is pre-heating, you may be without heat but with the Webasto, it won't take long to pre-heat the engine.
Jim |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (67.226.254.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:23 am: | |
Does not seem to be any reason not to preheat the engine any time the furnace is on except to save fuel. My Espar system is always connected to the engine. Should not harm it other than thinning the oil so it runs off the cylinders. But if you are using the bus won't you be starting the engine often enough that it won't hurt to keep it preheated. That way you will not need to worry about having nothing open to the furnace. |
Joe Shelton (67.242.193.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 8:38 am: | |
there are couple of reasons to isolate the engine from the heater: 1) to save fuel when we are parked for 3 days or longer, 2) will not have to drain entire system to perform maintenance on the engine cooling system.
I have another question. The Webasto manual calls for gate valves. Would it be OK to use ball valves instead?
Joe |
Don Ripley (67.243.156.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 8:47 am: | |
Joe: I used ball valves on mine and they seem to work fine. A coach builder in Phoenix told me to do it that way and he has not had any problems. Don |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.141.113.138)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 9:09 am: | |
In keeping with the idea of not shutting off both loops at the same time, ball valves come in a 3 port 2 position configuration. This will give you the either/or. I used these on my engine preheat loop to direct the preheat to the diesel genset if needed. It was a waste of time, money and plumbing, that 7.5 Onan started right up at zero degrees!
Jim |
Joe Shelton (67.241.228.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 10:47 am: | |
thanks to all. My Webasto is presently installed in the water buy, between the gas bottles and the waste tank. I have to crawl into one side of the buy to adjust the valves and pull the gas bottles on the other side for servicing.
I am designing a new water buy which will include moving the starting batteries to the old A/C buy, building new water tanks, and moving the Webasto. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (12.146.33.69)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 10:53 pm: | |
Hey, fellas, one thing I have run into with ball valves, at least 3/4 inch and bigger is that they break if frozen. This is why the spec for gate valves.
To prevent damage if they are going to be frozen when they have had water in them, leave them turned to the 45 degree postion. They can break when frozen even if the line they are in is empty unless the water in the body is released, as well.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 |
FAST FRED (63.215.238.7)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 5:05 am: | |
Ball valves also are frequently FRAUDS .
The threads are for 3/4 or 1 inch , but there is a TINY ball and TINY hole thru the tiny ball, that is a big source of resistance.
Look only for valves that will not screw up the water flow.
FAST FRED |
johnwood (206.252.229.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 4:34 pm: | |
Belimo makes a line of stainless 2 and 3 way ball valves with 24 VDC actuators. This would be my choice of control. Switches or thermostats can control flow of water where it is needed. Only caveat is that valves are powered open and closed, so you need a SPDT switch or stat to make 'em work properly. And yes FF, they are full port!
Reason not to use gate valves: They are slow, they leak at the stem, they get crud in the seat and will not close completely when you need them to. Ball valves if NOT using glycol can freeze the small amount of water in the housing, but usually it will blow out the nylon seal rather than breaking the casting. Note! If you are soldering on a used ball valve, turn the handle to 45 degrees, if left open the water flashes to steam and blows out the seal. Done it and it is startling! |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.210.121)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 2:43 pm: | |
In one of the earlier posts, a caution was mentioned about forcing the Webasto's safety systems to cut-out.
The Webasto's that I have dealings with have a proper thermostatically controlled burner. It automatically shuts down the burner as the set operating temp is reached, and resumes heating when the circulating coolant cools to a predetermined temp. There is no manual reset to trip or reset on these type of controls.
The circulating pump is also thermostatically controlled, shutting off once the temp inside the unit drops to a predetermined level.
If the controls that you design do not allow the circ pump to cycle off, I'd be concerned about there being somewhere for the circ pump to push to when all the other routes for the hot coolant are shut off.
Simple way? Perhaps controlling the burner circuit with the coach interior temp and leaving the circ pump to cycle off automatically might be easier and/or more power efficient than a system of power consuming solenoid valves? With the appropriate bypass circuit to force engine pre-heat or shower water duty or...? Would work just like your furnace at home, with the circ pump acting like the forced air fan, only consuming power when needed and not running continuously.
Simple or complex controls?
Doesn't matter.
As long as YOU are happy, before, during and after. And, of course, it works and it is safe!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.145.176.66)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 5:13 pm: | |
If the Webasto is not allowed to circulate water during the 120 second post purge stage of the heating cycle, the Webasto combustion chamber will retain enough heat to pop the manual reset or the built-in overheat fuse. These are located on top of the Webasto under the plastic cover where all the wires go. Same will happen if valves are closed and stop circulation.
Jim |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (67.226.254.189)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 5:46 pm: | |
The manual gate valves (ball valves, whatever)allow you to isolate the webasto system from the engine for working on it. But if you need the heat, the heat from the engine is going to rise and warm the bedroom floor. It is not all lost. To me it is simpler to not have valves to turn on and off to operate the system, whether they are manual or electric. If you use manual valves, you have to go outside to turn on the loop to the engine before you can preheat. If you were going to be parked for months, it might save enough energy to be worth the extra complexity. My opinion only, of course. |
joe shelton (Littlewind) (67.241.228.222)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:49 pm: | |
OK, I know what I'm going to do. One of the reasons I wanted to do this in the first place was so I could work on the engine cooling system without draining the coach heating circuit. I figure the coach heating circuit must hold a large volume of coolant. If the coach heating circuit fluid is drained I would also have to bleed each exchanger or the effected exchangers. Thus I am also planning on installing bleed valves at each exchanger and the defroster. The other reason I wanted to use ball valves was cause I don’t much care for gates.
I have had a number of problems with my Webasto and have the books and have tore into it extensively. Had to have the blower motor repaired (replacement was $250). The coach and hot water are heated by the Webasto or the engine. There is also a 10 gal elec H2O heater.
I will plumb the system using manual ball valves so that:
1. the engine can be Webasto pre-heated with coach isolated
2. the coach can be Webasto heated with engine isolated
3. both coach and engine can be heated with Webasto at same time
4. the coach can be heated from engine with Webasto isolated
5. coach heating circuit can be drained without draining engine
6. engine can be drained without draining coach heating circuit
At least that’s what I’m going to investigate.
Thanks, Joe |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.27.88.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 7:06 pm: | |
Sounds well thought out.
I think you will find # 4 unnecessary. The diesel funace does not care if it is has engine heated hot water running through it.
Steve Fessenden |
joe shelton (Littlewind) (67.241.230.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 12:44 am: | |
Thanks Steve. I thought that I might want to be able to isolate the Webasto in case I have to some major miantenance on it. Joe |