| Author | Message | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60  Rating: N/A |
OK guys I am getting ready to purchase 6 tires. RIght now I have 12R/22.5 and am planning to switch to the newer 315/80 style. Question is about using retreads...do any of you use retreads in the rear or do you always buy new? Any reasons not to use a retread in the rear? Retreads completely asside I found some good prices on Kelly's and OK prices on Micheline if I go new on all 6. Looking forward to feedback because I don't want to do this again for a while  | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 714 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.11  Rating: N/A |
So I have to ask, why change from the 12R to the 315? Are you close to the load limits of the 12R, so you need the extra carrying capacity? (Or are you like me, where you're in enough soft sand that you need to have the extra contact patch and run the lower pressures?) The reason I ask is that the 315's are considerably more expensive, and there are far fewer choices. You'd probably have trouble even finding decent retreads in that size. You should also be aware that the 315's are enough wider than the 12R's that the tire may rub on the tie-rod ends, so definitely mount one up, put full weight on it, and check before committing to purchase them. Lastly, for proper fit, 315/80R22.5 tires should really be mounted on 9" rims. If you have 12R22.5s now, your rims could be 9", but could also be 8.25". If you have 8.25" rims, I would double-check with the manufacturer of any 315/80R22.5 you plan to buy to make sure they approve fitment to the smaller rims. To answer your question, I would not put retreads on any position on a bus conversion. Tire carcasses have a certain life, in years. If you put brand new tires on your bus, you'll probably get several years out of them, perhaps even the full lifetime of around 5 years. OTOH, retreads may be on 3- or 4-year old carcasses, in which case you'll need to replace the tires in one or two years, with most of the tread still on them. BTW, check the date codes on the tires you buy. I will not accept tires older than ten months when I buy new. HTH, -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 137 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Sean. Purchasing tires for the coach involves a lot more research than I anticpated. It's interesting what you have to say about the 315's because I was told by the tire dealer that 12R/22.5 isn't used much and there were more options in the 315 and the prices he quoted were less which was thew reason I was going to change over. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 715 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.11 Rating: N/A |
Tim, I think your tire dealer is smoking something. (Or he's got a bunch of old 315s sitting around that he needs to move -- it is a very, very low-demand item for most dealers.) Go to pretty much any commercial tire manufacturer's web site (but pick one with a "find by tire size" feature), and key in both of those sizes and see how many tires come up in each. This one (Bridgestone) for example: http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/truck_radials/index_2.asp shows only three models available in 315, but five models in 12R. You'll find similar results from every maker. If you compare apples to apples, meaning exactly the same model tire in those two different sizes (although that's sometimes hard to find - the Bridgestone M843 on/off road tire is one example), I think you will find that the 315s cost about 20% more than the 12R's. Makes sense, too -- for that tire, the 12R22.5 single load capacity is 7,390 lbs, while the 315/80R22.5 can carry 9,090 lbs in the same application, a whopping 1,700 more lbs per tire. And, as I wrote earlier, it is not a direct replacement, or, as some people (dealers included) seem to think, a "metric equivalent" to 12R. It is an entirely different tire, with a very different profile. It may not fit in your application. The principal reason why many buses are going to the 315 is simple: It's a beefier tire, and comes in much higher load ratings than the 12R22.5. If you look at the curb weight of some of the 45' wide-body coaches, and then add 53 passengers and their stuff, you'll see the weights getting right up there, and the heavier duty tires start to make sense. Note that the manufacturers (Prevost, MCI) who are fitting or specifying 315/80R22.5 tires as original equipment are equipping those coaches with 9" rims. I'm going to take a wild guess that your older coach is equipped with 8.25" rims. HTH, -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 716 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.11 Rating: N/A |
Tim, I thought I'd link to a couple of tire stories on our blog, which will either help you or amuse you (or maybe appall you): Here is the time we finally replaced our steer axle 12R22.5s with the 315s. (My bus eats tires -- long story, but we only got 40k out of our steers.) Here is the time we later had to replace the tags on the road, and how hard it was just to find the 12R's (315's would have been out of the question entirely). And here is a long discussion of what we went through to change to 9" rims, just so we could put 315's on if we ever wanted to. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 242 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.141.168 Rating: N/A |
FWIW, Sean...and not being facetious.....maybe you should consider changing coaches....To each his own, as my ole' mom says. Man, that is out of my league.....  RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 205 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.151.87 Rating: N/A |
we have tried to tell sean something along the lines of that and I think the post got removed LOL to you Sean, I still like the looks of your coach tho! gomer | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 717 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.46 Rating: N/A |
Yeah. I need to get the bent A-arm on the tag replaced -- without that, all the alignment in the world seems not to help. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Ed Brenner (Epbrenner)
Registered Member Username: Epbrenner Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.12.117.73 Rating: N/A |
Tim , My opinion would never use a cap on a bus.Ever seen what happens if the cap comes apart. It will beat the holy crap out of the wheel well and perhaps more. My dad had one come apart on a bus he had just purchased torn up the well than took out the muffler.ON a tractor/trailer setup more room for the tire to fly free and take out some other poor vehicle.I use to be a state vehicle inspector in Va. and dot said most of the tires on the road that came apart were not re-caps but new,due to under- inflation causing overheat.But you'll never see a re-cap on my bus(my opinon we all got one) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.90.229.135 Rating: N/A |
FIRST weigh the coach , unless its a really heavy (read close to illegal wheel loading) look in the catalog at 11R 22.5 and see if the weights are acceptable. These tires are as common as burorats and almost as cheap,to buy. $250 each for Toyo new Steers here in the FL outback. New steers all around probably give best ride and quietest inside. The 12R were used so the bus driver couldn't make a few bucks at a rest stop swoping with a trucker, seldom for the weight ability. FF | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 206 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.151.87 Rating: N/A |
sean,, let me know the year and stuff on your coach. I know a man or two that has a couple of coaches he is scraping and has some undercarriage stuff left. Gomer | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 718 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.49 Rating: N/A |
Where do you get this stuff? While that might conceptually be true for a really light coach, perhaps something 35' x 96", a 45' x 102" rig can't possibly get by with 11R22.5 tires unless it's empty. (In bus service, with unpredictable loads -- obviously, for a conversion, you get to weigh it and decide for yourself). Besides, if a bus driver thought he could get away with swapping 11R22.5's with a truck driver at a rest stop, what would stop him from swapping the even more valuable 12R22.5 for that same 11R22.5? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "illegal wheel loading," since the federal bridge formula allows 10,000 lbs per tire. A three-axle coach would have to be over 54,000 lbs before it was overweight in most jurisdictions, and, at that weight, you should definitely be on the 315's in preference to the 12R's -- the 11R's would be completely out of the question at loads much lower than this. Not counting, here, any lower limit imposed by the vehicle manufacturer, which of course must also be followed. ----
My coach is a 1985 German-built Spaceliner. The running gear is only interchangeable with other German-built models, not any of the stuff that was built in Colorado. That said, I do already have a replacement A-arm. I just need a shop with the tools and know-how to replace it. That means, BTW, someone who has worked on Neoplans before. Shops that know Neoplans and are still willing to work on them are very rare. (Suggestions welcome.) Contact me off-board, though, if you're willing to put me in touch with anyone parting out Neoplans. I always like to have those contacts, and I also am constantly being contacted by other Neoplan oweners looking for things. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by sean on March 14, 2008) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 245 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.214.45 Rating: N/A |
Far as I know, Sean, FF is right on the money. Does Neoplan not still have a plant at Lamar?...there should be plenty of folks in that community that " have the "tools and know-how to replace it". Can't imagine that German Company wouldn't have a suggestion or two for you. Or....are they still in business? FWIW RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 720 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.49 Rating: N/A |
Sorry, Neoplan USA went out of business nearly three years ago. The plant in Lamar is long gone. The service facility in Honeybrook was shuttered even before that. The only thing left in the US is a parts distribution center, and even that will go away once the last transit contract obligations are closed. Neoplan coaches in this country are now orphans. Most operators are rotating them out of their fleets as fast as they can. The only shop that I know without a doubt can do this work is Chappaqua Transportation in Fishkill, NY, but it will be a good while before we will get up that way. As for the anecdote about the tire swapping, I'd love to see a factual basis for that. It makes for a great "story", like most urban legends. But, again like most urban legends, it's full of holes and does not stand up to scrutiny. How many rogue drivers could possibly pull off selling tires out from under their buses? For what, a few bucks? (And, as I wrote above, if they would do that to begin with, why would putting more expensive tires on stop them, rather than encourage them even more?) And Greyhound (or whomever is alleged to have made this decision) is now going to decide that they will spend, conservatively, 15% more for tires across the boards to stop this miniscule handful of rogue drivers? That's what the security and HR departments are for. At a big corporation like that, tires get chosen based on engineering and cost-of-ownership factors. Just ask the guy who strapped the JATO unit to his car. ;) -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 316 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.82.73 Rating: N/A |
FF theory won't work today with all the logging trucks in Idaho,Washington,and Oregon using the 12R 22.5 tires | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 246 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.213.1 Rating: N/A |
So....how about http://www.neoplan.de/en/Service/Service.jsp. BTW. Crown Coach went out of business in the 1990's. No problem in finding parts needed so far, including Crown Head Screw removers.....I usually have found where there is a will....well, you know. FWIW....and how about that new cityliner? RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 721 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.32 Rating: N/A |
So far, I'm not desperate enough to want to pay the ~$20,000 to ship the bus to Europe and back just so I can take it to a real Neoplan shop... As far as parts, I can still get them through Neopart, and MAN won't sell them to me here until Neopart shuts down. But they are very, very pricey. We try to find the OEM cross-reference for everything and buy direct from the suppliers if we can. For example, Bilstein made the tag axle steering dampers -- $520 each from Neopart, less than $200 each from regular Bilstein dealers. One difference between my Spaceliner and, say, a Crown is that Crown sold thousands of buses. Not only are many still in service, but there is a healthy aftermarket, and you can find plenty of them in scrapyards. Neoplan only ever sold perhaps 40 or so Spaceliners in the US, and many of those were built in Lamar. Non-Spaceliner models built in Germany here in the US probably totaled 100 or so. So the pool is very small -- nobody is interested in creating an aftermarket for such a small pool, nor are there enough of these out there to make scrapyard hunting practical. The replacement A-arm I am carrying around with me came from one of the old Kennedy Space Center rust buckets. A fellow Neoplan owner had salvaged it (along with hundreds of other parts) back when the Feds sold off the lot of them. He had the benefit of a large yard where he could store and tear down an entire hangar queen -- a luxury I've never had. We love our bus, and would not trade it for anything else out there. But the day Neoplan USA closed its doors, we knew we were in for an ongoing maintenance challenge. As it stands right now, the bus eats tires. We've chosen to just live with that reality rather than rearrange our lives around a trip to the east coast and the only shop we are certain can fix it (well, at least part of it -- until we fix the A-arm, it's impossible to say what other factors are contributing to the wear). We'll probably get there this year, if there are no major civic disasters to intervene. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |