| Author |
Message |
Merlin Bennett (Mobennett) (64.12.107.159)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 4:20 pm: | |
Hi guys. This board is great. So much information.
My name is Merlin and this is my first time on the BNO BBS and I'm the proud owner of a GMC RTS II that I will begin converting. My main goal for this coach at this time will be week end boondocking and the yearly vacation. My home is in Pierre, South Dakota where we get extremes in temperature (-20 to +100 degrees F) and would like to use it as much as possible. I have two children, one 6 and one 8 and would like to show them as much of the USA as possible. Climnate control and reliability is most important to me followed by creature comforts and frills. (too much information)
After several years of gleaning information from here and there I have decided that propane is the way I should go. It appears to be economical and can be used in a multitude of applicaitons with or without electricity, depending upon your taste and the apppliances you choose. My question is; can the water heater, furnaces and refer be vented other than out the side of the coach. I don't want to cut holes in the side of the RTS due to the nature of construction and appearance.
Any information, pro or con, would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Merlin |
Ross Carlisle (Ross) (207.88.97.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 5:34 pm: | |
Well...The furnace can be vented anywhere as long as the vent pipe is not too long. The manufacturer will tell you it must be vented through the wall using the vent flange, but if you size your extended vent pipe accordingly it will be fine. Go with a Suburban furnace. The Atwood furnaces have been known to burn out if you extend the vent pipe. I'm venting my Suburban down through the bay floor because the furnace is going in the forward bay, not in the living space.
If you go with a residential demand water heater, you could probably vent it anywhere as long as the unit has a power vent. Some guys here have used the Polonas (sp?) water heaters with success. I went with the Precision Temp demand unit. It mounts in an outside wall. No way around it, but I dont mind that.
The refer has a roof vent and a vented door in the side of the bus. The theory is similar to a fireplace. You get a draft going. The air is drawn if from the vented door and expelled through the roof vent. You could relace the door with a floor vent and still get the same air flow, but now you have no access to the back side of the fridge, which you need. If you could figure that out, I'd say you could do away with the door.
Ross |
CoryDane RTSII IL (4.17.253.221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 1:35 am: | |
Although I am a proponant of PROPANE, there are also Diesel furnaces that use no power also. Look at the units at West Marine or other Marine supply houses. Other choices, I think it is FF that says Webasto is so good and uses a electrically economic circulation pump, which I think can be tied into your hot water supply.
As for Propane, I like it a lot, youcan have a permanent tank, and a removable tank so you dont have to move the bus to get propane. recently posts talked about mounting the furnace and / or water heater in a bay, the exhaust going out the side on a non movable panel, the bay door coming down and sealing agianst that panel. Some of the Marine heaters use no power and vent through the roof with a 1" exhaust, but watch the heating abilities of each unit you look at.
If you have watched this board for long, then you have heard about the other different types of heaters available. Unless you will have a fireplace on board, or connection to land power, I would stay away from the Suburban type heater with the power gobbling blower fan.
I would be interested in your final insulation plan of attack as I know it gets plenty cold up there.
Good luck - cd |
FAST FRED (63.215.228.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 5:22 am: | |
My heater of choice in Oil would be the Hurricane brand , simple domestic parts , DC loads sized to furnace output.
The use of a std propane RV hot water heater(or Bosch house style) and low amp circ pump and baseboard radiators would be my choice for a camping (no PP) use if central heat were needed.
BUT to spend a winter at -10F the diesel range and heaters (Dickinson or similar)would be only realistic choice.
Yup you need a smoke stack thru the roof , but full range heating without a drop of electric , seems more reasonable in temps that can KILL.
A big hassle will be designing the water , and dump systems to not freez with out heating the bays.
I simply installed all the tanks and plumbing under custom cabinets , in the heated space, but this can limit cap to about 100Fresh and 100 Black/grey.
What will you do with NO power to keep from freezing is the hassle.
Our solution is an unvented wall heater , ONLY for the times that freez protection is needed and no person or animal is aboard.
You do have a design to work out.
FAST FRED |
Peter (Sdibaja) (209.242.148.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 9:39 am: | |
FF
more info in the Hurricane furnace?
a web link?
Peter |
Merlin Bennett (Mobennett) (152.163.201.204)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 10:13 am: | |
Thanks for the information guys. I do plan on having two 8D's on board for house lights and other ansilary items and a 6.5 kw propane generator to power two 13.5k AC units and battery charging.
I am very interested in the added safety that comes with a heat supply that needs no electricity offers for those boondocking trips in the middle of winter.
Cory, I thought about mounting the furnace and water heater in a bay in a solidly mounted panel but didn't know if this would work and if it could be used while on the road.
My fresh water tank will be under the master bed and about 125 gallons. I thought the gray and black water could be in one bay, which would be insulated and heated by residual heat from the furnace and water heater and possibly small vent form the furnace. The floor plan will have to place sinks, showers, toilets, etc within or close to this bay. No floor insulation over this bay either.
What do you think?
Merlin |
Ross Carlisle (Ross) (207.88.96.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:34 pm: | |
A couple of comments, Merlin....
6.5 KW would be a little light for runnig 2 AC's plus othe light 110 loads. It might handle it, but you would be loading the genset pretty heavy. Wrico told me that 8KW would me absolute minimum for me (LP heat, LP fridge, LP water heater). My only substantial 110 are the 2 13.5 roof airs and a battery charger.
8D batteries are not a good choice for continued deep cycling. You'de be better of using marine deep cycle batteries or alot of the guys here like the golf cart batteries.
Theoretically you could use your propane appliances while on the road provided the draft from the vent pipe did not blow out the pilot (or burner). Legally you are not supposed to run any propane appliances while underway. This is why I went with a demand water heater. When I stop, I just throw a switch and I have instant hot water.
I'm doing my tank bay abot the same way you are. Except my fresh water, water pumps and waste tanks are in the rear bay under the bathroom. My furnace is in the front bay. I have a duct running into the tank bay. If that doesnt do it, I can always put a small LP heater down there. I planned it so that anything that could freeze would be in one bay. |
FAST FRED (65.59.78.84)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 1:58 pm: | |
Gensets come in different sizes , even when the output is given as similar.
An old OHNO 6.5 or a Kohler is just fine for 2 air cond, although BOTH must not be started at the same time.
The "brain" in a basement unit does this automaticaly.
On a Generac or other Hunk O Junk, like a contractor unit , full output is seldom realistic.
FAST FRED |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 2:29 pm: | |
Quote from Ross, "8D batteries are not a good choice for continued deep cycling".
8D's are available as deep cycle. I have four interstate 8D's that are deep cycle rated. Have had them about four years with no apparant problem.
This being said, probably the best buy are the golf cart 6 volt batteries from Sams or Costco.
Richard |
Ross Carlisle (Ross) (207.88.96.145)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
I didnt know 8D's came in a deep cycle version...As long as you use the deep cycle version. I see alot of people deep cyclying the start batteries.
On the genset...Just passing on what I was told by Dick Wright 2 weeks ago when I told him I wanted a 6.5KW genset.
Ross |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.129.223.65)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 5:49 pm: | |
As to the genset size and a/c's.. I used 3 rooftop airs on a 7.5 Onan for years and NEVER had it kick out on me. Of course, all three didn't ever start at once. I heard from the guy who bought it, that the genset breaker tripped due to 2 starting at the same time while the 3rd was running. This is with about 700 hours of a/c run time. With only one breaker trip, I'll take that rather than to run a 16KW unit at low load all the time.
Jim |
dougthebonifiedbusnut (24.218.119.24)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 8:28 pm: | |
hey guys i had every intention of runnung my suburban heater while i was running i was tod that this was acceptable i wil have to rethink my heating desighn if i cant do this i saw one of those ciramic heaters in a conversion i guess i could use one or two of those while im running i dont think that my engine will keep the coach warm while im running need some help here |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.176)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 9:25 pm: | |
If you can save the original heater core and ducting, you should be able to heat from that while you're on the road. At sixty miles an hour, there is something like 250,000 btu of waste heat in the engine water to get rid of. Compare that to the usual 35,000 btu a Suburban puts out.
I haven't run across this business about it being illegal to run a propane furnace while under way; we had to do that for heat before we got the original coach heater working again.
I did know that there were places like ferries and some tunnels that required the propane to be turned off. What gives? Anyone?
About the 8D batteries. Sometimes, they are marked or advertized as deep cycle but they're a hybrid. The way to figure it out is if they will give you CCA ratings. If they do, you don't want to use it as a deep cycle. Look for amp hour ratings only.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 |
CoryDane RTSII IL (4.17.253.13)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 9:36 pm: | |
Some of the "powerless" heaters would mount right in your living area. they are not terribly unattractive and you don't require a trailor of batteries to run the fan. There are many heaters out there that use no power and perhaps one will be a good choice for you.
The bay is a good place to install a heater or water heater, and yes , you could use it underway, the RV's do, there is no difference, except a bus is just a tad larger. But the blower fans will pull your voltage down and some furnaces have a safety in them where they wont fire if the dc is at a certain voltage, then you get cold. The powerless unit runs as long as you have fuel. There are some that have pellet stoves too if that is your bag. Oh there I go, I love taking about all this stuff and when I see it happening, I get all teary eyed, LOL. cd |
Ross Carlisle (Ross) (216.107.195.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 10:23 pm: | |
Doug...I wouldnt worry to much about it. If it will run underway, run it. I've heard from a lot of sources, including DMV Enforcement that it is illegal to run any propane appliance while underway.
When I bought my Precision Temp, I asked if it would run while underway and they said that it might, but it is illegal.
I plan to use the bus heat while underway. As someone else pointed out, you have lots of BTU's there to use while underway.
Ross |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 10:41 pm: | |
In my past 30 years of RV'ing, I have never seen anything stating that it was illegial to operate a propane furnace or other appliance while underway. I have owned several new RV's, and I feel certain that if it was unlawful to operate an appliance while underway, there would have been large and prominent warning signs.
I would not believe that it is unlawful until someone provides a link to a state law.
Richard |
Scott Whitney (24.205.233.143)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 11:14 pm: | |
I've always ran mine while underway. But I turn them off to fuel up. This takes planning cause you have to turn them off before you sit down in the driver's seat or make a pit stop to shut them down before arriving at the fuel island. I suppose one could always turn them off at the fuel island, but I prefer to arrive with them already off.
Don't understand why it would be unsafe to use them down the road.
Scott |
FAST FRED (65.56.24.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 4:38 am: | |
For a rather interesting look at the use of non- RV items in a coach , check out ;
http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html
Although I contacted the Mfg. of the "COZY ' brand of heater sold by Grangers and recomended Phred , and he was shocked with the concept of his product in a RV .
He was worried by the burner breaking away from the unit and gassing the occupants.
Yet there seem to be lots of them out in low cost camper land working quite happily.
A thru the wall , no power vent unit , might be OK with a CO monitor .
FAST FRED |
john wood (206.252.229.114)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 9:52 pm: | |
Biggest problem with a Cozy thru the wall is that they generally have a pilot and will at the most inopportune time blow out. Not really suited for a traveling man. |
JME (63.25.25.213)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 7:23 pm: | |
Tom,
I believe that it is illegal to enter many, if not all tunnels if you even have propane aboard. Isn't that what the prominent no hazardous materials signs designate with a crossed-out "p"?
JME |
Tom Connolly (64.58.193.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 8:48 pm: | |
I wonder what a propane powered vehicle does? Isn't a half tank of gasoline more hazardous?
Tom C |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:03 pm: | |
As far as I know, "permanently mounted" vehicle tanks aren't considered any more hazardous than tanks of gasoline mounted to cars and are allowed anywhere on US highways. It's the portable tanks they're talking about that you can't take into tunnels. I took a week long intensive from Impco on propane engine conversion and everything from A to Z including the kitchen sink was covered, and I don't remember anything about DOT approved, permanently mounted vehicle cylinders being a problem... That said, things may have changed and I'm not an authority...
Cheers
Gary Stadller |
DaveD (216.18.113.69)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 1:55 pm: | |
If want to think of something unsafe, how about the old VW bugs that had a gasoline fired heater in them as an option and virtually no up front crash protection? They were legal at the time.
DaveD |
Scott Whitney (24.205.228.169)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 3:27 pm: | |
I don't know what the law says in regards to bridges etc., but as Gary says the two tank types are probably where the difference lies. The permanent tanks are ASME certified and the portables are DOT. For example, the ASME tanks have had the Overfill Protection Devices as standard for some time. Only this month did the OPD devices become law in most states for the portable DOT tanks. Maybe now that the tanks can't be overfilled, the bridge and tunnel rules/laws will start to reflect the higher safety standards.
Scott |
fleenerburger (66.242.161.69)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 1:32 am: | |
In regard to the refer in other than against an outside wall, go look at some of the newer travel trailers with the galley in the slide-out. Some of them have refers in mid-coach and use a small electric fan to provide a exaust to the outside. |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 2:31 am: | |
$100 bucks gets you a Marinco Nicro solar powered fan that has a nicad battery in it and runs 24/7 with no power supply other than sun. A 6" hole in floor and a 6" vent on roof with this fan in it and your fridge is set...no more ugly big holes in the side of the bus...
Cheers
Gary Stadler |
RJ Long (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 2:41 am: | |
Gary -
Is that Marinco Nicro fan available from West Marine?
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
FAST FRED (63.215.234.49)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 5:16 am: | |
Good places that have 800# and do a bit of discounting are :
Defender Ind in CT
Hamilton Marine in RI and,
West Marine in CA
West has a very good info filled catalogue but the others are frequently better on pricing , and have different goodies. .
Defender has lots of source mfg co. addresses , so you can write or call the mfg for the FULL catalog and instalation / operation instructions .
Many times reading the instalation book before purchase can help in equipment selection ,
or better, finding out that what you thought would be a good idea , is not as great as first thought.
To make the coach the 'BEST' for your use , you need a handle on ALL the items that can work to your goal.
FAST FRED |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 9:31 am: | |
http://www.marinco2.com/companies.asp?strCompany=nicro |
Don Hughes (209.36.53.212)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 1:44 pm: | |
I have an unvented propane heater (with oxygen sensor)in my Eagle 05 and have lived in it for the past two years. The heater is on during the Winter when traveling and the pilot has never gone out. I also have co2 and propane detectors installed which have never gone off. I'm probably breaking some law but it has worked for me. |