| Author | Message | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.13  Rating: N/A |
After cleaning out my bays of all the extra parts Dounan gave me with the bus (I think I hauled one whole bus up my new garage stairs!!) I can finally get to tracing circuits. All the wiring is Romex 14, 12, & 10, 2 conductor w/ground. Lots of splices here and there so I'm just going to rewire most of it. I know most seem to be against Romex, but what if it's already there? If I go with single conductor stranded, sized appropriately to the circuit, how to you bundle them and keep them out of the way. I hate to do BX throughout. Plastic sheathing an option?? Just tape & zip tie the bundles?? Thanks folks.... Jamo | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 165 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.74.6 Rating: N/A |
Jamo I have used romex for the 120 volt circuts and in the 23 years I have had the bus I have never had a problem with the wiring. I ran it in plastic tube to the locations I needed it for. I used stranded wire for the 12 volt circuts sized to suit the load. I think if it is fastened securely there is little problem with vibration concerns. Bill | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 407 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 72.66.161.19  Rating: N/A |
My bus was converted in 1979 and the PO used romex. So my bus is approaching 30yrs with no problems. You would have to decide if there is much to gain by spending the extra amount for the other wiring types. Romex is relatively inexpensive, available and easy to work with. I don’t have a problem with it. | ||
| Jack Campbell (Blue_goose)
Registered Member Username: Blue_goose Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 71.100.207.86  Rating: N/A |
My bus was converted 22 years ago. I used all romax and have never had a problem. There is no reason to use stranded wire in a motorhome. There should be no movement of the wire. If you do use stranded wire you have to use one size larger wire than you would with solid wire. Jack | ||
| James Robinson (Jjrbus)
Registered Member Username: Jjrbus Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 68.56.32.83 Rating: N/A |
Romex is listed for use in motorhomes. It says something like it must me securly or properly fastened. So dont duk tape it to the weall. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 423 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Can I ask a couple of questions? (Then I will duck when it hits the fan!) 1. How much solid wire did the BUS manufacturer put in it when it was built? We all know the answer to that one, maybe there was a reason... (There are only a couple of bus nuts in it, no wire nuts from the factory either!) 2. Type NM, Romex, is approved for residential use only, not even in a commercial stationary building. (I know, this is a statement. Romex has an outer sheath, and Romex's current rating includes that sheath, and does NOT include putting it in conduit.) 3. Where in the National Electric Code does it say that stranded wire has to be one size larger than solid wire for the same ampacity? 4. Why do people build extension cords into bus walls, when it is expressly forbidden to do it in a building, and its the same electricity? Not to mention that the house stands a much better chance of being properly connected to the public utility than a bus!! 5. What is "It says something like must me securly...Dont duk tape... to the weall"? (But we're REAL SURE its safe, AND we reccommend it to others??) This is both serious, and facetious, and really doesn't deserve a reply, its NOT personal! The beauty of owning a bus is that you can build AND drive it any way you choose!!! This time I have the popcorn, and something which will not only quench the thirst, but dull the pain of the turnip truck head wound. George | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.74.6 Rating: N/A |
George I respect your postings. Your a very knowledgable bus nut. I just wrote what I had done 23 years ago and have not had a problem with it. If it ain't broke why fix it. Keep up the good work George. Bill | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 149 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.99.21.210 Rating: N/A |
Can I ask a couple of questions? (Then I will duck when it hits the fan!) 1. How much solid wire did the BUS manufacturer put in it when it was built? We all know the answer to that one, maybe there was a reason... (There are only a couple of bus nuts in it, no wire nuts from the factory either!) NONE. All the 12/24 volt wiring in the bus falls under completely different regulations from the NEC. 2. Type NM, Romex, is approved for residential use only, not even in a commercial stationary building. (I know, this is a statement. Romex has an outer sheath, and Romex's current rating includes that sheath, and does NOT include putting it in conduit.) True, and if you are using your bus for commercial purposes you should use metallic conduit for all your wiring. No reason you can't use solid wire though. If your bus is more than three stories tall, you can't use NM either. Art. 551-10(3) Single wire low voltage conductors shall be of the stranded type. Art. 551-47(a)Rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, rigid nonmetallic tubing, flexible metal conduit, Type MC cable, Type AC cable, and non metallic sheathed cable shall be permitted. 3. Where in the National Electric Code does it say that stranded wire has to be one size larger than solid wire for the same ampacity? It doesn't 4. Why do people build extension cords into bus walls, when it is expressly forbidden to do it in a building, and its the same electricity? Not to mention that the house stands a much better chance of being properly connected to the public utility than a bus!! Extension cords are forbidden for that purpose and those who use them in buses are just wrong. If I bought a bus wired with extension cords, I would have to rewire it before I could sleep in it. 5. What is "It says something like must me securly...Dont duk tape... to the weall"? (But we're REAL SURE its safe, AND we reccommend it to others??) No answer for that one. This is both serious, and facetious, and really doesn't deserve a reply, its NOT personal! The beauty of owning a bus is that you can build AND drive it any way you choose!!! This time I have the popcorn, and something which will not only quench the thirst, but dull the pain of the turnip truck head wound. George Also both serious, and facetious. Do it your way but be safe. I have seen bus conversions that were rolling firebombs just waiting to go off. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.188 Rating: N/A |
I prefer marine wire , multy stranded , tinned , and Ok for a damp and vibrating enviroment. To secure the wire bundles insert a dowel when laying up the bundles, and wire tie every 4 inches if the wires are not in a trough. The simplest was the old Custom Coach setup, two troughs from front to back, and everything dropped right in . No vehicle code in the world will allow single strand wiring for ANYTHING! although the ols Romex coaches survive , its probably not the way to do it 35 years later. FF | ||
| Frank Allen (Frank66)
Registered Member Username: Frank66 Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.73 Rating: N/A |
i used romex in my 06 20 yrs ago have never had a problem, solid wire is used for ac and stranded wire is used for dc, wire needs to be secured properly, my former factory rv was wired with romex also. nothing wrong with it in my opinion Frank allen | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 425 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Bill, Len, and Fred, I appreciate YOUR posts and wisdom! Prior to the bus, I had a 72 motorhome that had Romex for the rooftop A/C, the gen, and the connection from the converter to the shore input. It ran 20 years without a failure, because it was installed by a yacht company that did conversions for a couple of years, and didn't leave anything loose where it could vibrate. I wouldn't take Romex out of a conversion that looked OK either, I just wouldn't put it in to start with... Fred's idea of a dowel is slick, the locomotive mfrs. have just started doing essentially that, with a 1/4 inch steel rod bent into short radius ends about four feet long, welded about an inch out from a wall, then holding a slit loom to it with wire ties. Thanks, George | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1093 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228  Rating: N/A |
Automobiles NOW, at least GM use solid aluminum in their cars for the lighting wires to the rear of the car. Try connecting to that! At least only one vehicle code FRED. I would prefer stranded myself just for the flexibility in installation and any wiring that would move around. But if installed and secured properly, I can't see why solid wire wouldn't work in most uses for 110 volts. As far as vibration, it isn't going to see that much unless it is used in engine compartment. Fine strand is nice but probably not worth the expense for use in a coach. THHN stranded wire is plentiful and economical and available in several colors and gauge to do all the wiring. The DC could be put in plastic loom for neatness and conduit for 110 + volts. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 308 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.7 Rating: N/A |
As far as vibration, it isn't going to see that much unless it is used in engine compartment. Guess the potholes are missing in your neck of the woods. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.144.230 Rating: N/A |
 RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1098 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
come on Fred, properly secured wiring doesn't jump around even on potholes except possibly in your 06. The biggest wiring failures are in my, experience, at connection points or rub through. The major flex failures that I've seen are in car door hinge areas WITH stranded wire that failed from hundreds of flex cycles.BTW, Wearing a seat belt will keep you from jumping around when going over potholes. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 309 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.87 Rating: N/A |
properly secured wiring doesn't jump around even on potholes IF its properly secured it wont, but many times the entire bundle is secured to itself , with little to provide no movement near EACH feed. When this happens the mass of the bundle is strong (heavy) enough to move , with most of the movement being at the end of each run. Flex single strand , and it work hardens and FAILS. Do it your way, FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1101 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
Back to the bottom line Fred " properly secured " | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 312 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.134 Rating: N/A |
Back to the bottom line Fred " properly secured " Yes , easy to write , but lots harder to actually DO in practice. A look at an aircraft repair or construction book will give the best idea of what is required. FF | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 412 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.12.119.214 Rating: N/A |
Yep, a bunch of airplanes were grounded because the ty-wraps were 1/8" too far apart per the spec. So it can be tough to determine what 'properly secured' actually is. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 641 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.37 Rating: N/A |
Stranded wire will handle much more vibration than solid. I think it will carry more current in the same gage too but not certain about that? A bus that doesn't vibrate from stem to stern, I can't imagine that?? | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.144.145 Rating: N/A |
Strand tying....like beauty, may be in the eyes of the beholder. Once a "rule" is made by the bureaucrats, it is usually enforced that way....whether good or bad. Doesn't mean it is the best way,\\ 1/8th of an inch can, however make a difference....sometimes.... RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 320 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.82 Rating: N/A |
Yep, a bunch of airplanes were grounded because the ty-wraps were 1/8" too far apart per the spec. So it can be tough to determine what 'properly secured' actually is. If your'e refering to the AA DC 9's the hassle was the wire bundle was too close to the path of the gear extending. Only an 1/8 of an inch but perhaps enough to have the wiring destroyed on gear extension at 200K+. FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1115 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
Remember that the wire is encased in insulation and paper and vinyl outer covering which would help to protect the wire from vibration. Probably why few, if any have suffered failures with romex. Also, planes experience a lot of vibrations over a he@l of a lot more hours than any motor home would ever see.Personally, I'd use stranded, but don't think the other is as failure prone as some seem to think. BTW, Gus, I asked an electrician at work about the current carrying capacity of stranded vs solid. He said that the outside circumference of the wire determines the amperage or current carrying capacity of the wire. So with stranded you calculate the circumference of each strand and then add them all up.This would make stranded a little higher in capacity; don't know by how much though. |