| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.1 Rating: N/A |
We are contemplating an engine tranny swop on an old Flx VL 100. It has the same Torsalastic suspension as the Eagles. The drive package Ser: 50 and 740 Allison is longer than either the origional 6-71 and 10 speed RR or the existing CAT 1160 and MT 654. The current drive shaft is 14 inches from U joint to U Joint. How short can we go ??? Hope not to have a bump out in the rear if this classic but,,,whatever it takes. Would love to use a world tranny , as there shorter but out of my price range , so far, and would be more difficult to operate than a TV controlled "dumb" 740. FF | ||
| AL (Proudeagle10)
Registered Member Username: Proudeagle10 Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 75.104.192.38 Rating: N/A |
FF I want to say, I've seen them as short as about 12 inches, maybe shorter. There is a big truck junk yard, here in San Antonio TX. that has a large pile of drive shaft, all sizes. That's where I've gone to get mine when ever I need one. AL. | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
are you sure it was originally a road ranger. most of the flx had 5 speeds | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 169 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60  Rating: N/A |
I think you are right. The driveline in my flx is origional and it has a 5 speed spicer | ||
| Bill McMackin (06_bill)
Registered Member Username: 06_bill Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 68.45.254.247 Rating: N/A |
FF Seems I remember the old twin tranny ford trucks had a center shaft that was only 8" or so. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 170 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60 Rating: N/A |
I think what Fed is getting at is how short can you go and still allow the carier to travel up and down without the driveshaft binding. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 389 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.40.147 Rating: N/A |
The angle of the 2 components and the size are going to play a big part in what the length can be | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1141 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228  Rating: |
You get much shorter shaft and you're going to start having u-joint and vibration problems....just so you can brag about having a series 50....big deal. You want fuel mileage? get a smaller diesel and trans. You want longevity? You'll never afford to put enough miles on it to justify the expense. DIYW. Ok, I'm done ranting; boy that felt good. Price of bbl of oil is $133 now, so I need to go have a couple of beers  ANYWAY- I've been looking, but had no luck so far in finding a double cardan 1700 series u-joint setup for an idea I've been toying with. That would allow increased angles from a shorter shaft if one exists, or a large cv joint that was rated to handle the torque. Let us know if you find one. Another option, although a lot of work would be to lengthen the rear of the coach a foot. When you get to a large joint capacity, the yokes and slip joint eat up a lot of length. I just went down and measured the one in my 4905; it's 16 1/2 inches center to center on u-joint caps with about one inch of room to further compress length of shaft at slip joint. Overall length face of yoke to face of yoke is 22 to 23 inches. It looks as though the shaft could be physically shortened about 4 inches and a little trimming in the slip yoke might yield another 2 inches at most.This is on a shaft with 1700 series joints. If your shaft uses 1500 or 1600 series, you will be able to have a shorter shaft as all the components are somewhat smaller and yokes are a little shorter. Your angles are going to be critical though and will require very careful alignment of your power package. Use a driveshaft angle gauge or inclinometer to set it up. the latter item can be purchased at Sears.Hope some of this was helpful. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 253 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Fred I measured the lenght of the driveshaft on mine, and it is 13 inches from the center of the pinion U joint to the edge of the bolt up flange. I abandonded the idea of an automatic because I would have had to give up another inch wich I didnot think was a good Idea considering the small lenght I started with. Bill An 8 inch shaft in fixed position should work fine. Joe. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 254 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Fred Is the torque level too high to reuse the 654? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 346 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.223 Rating: N/A |
"The angle of the 2 components and the size are going to play a big part in what the length can be." I know how far air bags allow the suspension to travel on a Sports car '06 but have no idea how far the travel in this rubber band spring Torsalastic setup allows the rear axle to move. Would love to solve the problem by switching to an independant rear suspension , but haven't seen one in the wrecking yard that will fit. "Is the torque level too high to reuse the 654?" The problem is I want to get a tranny retarder as well as the overdrive the Ser 50 requires to get best fuel mileage.The Allison 740 has both .."just so you can brag about having a series 50....big deal." It is yet undetermined weather this 1160 will need to be yanked , and I'm simply collecting parts and information to expidite the change IF its required. The 1160 starts and seems fine , but shows light black smoke from both banks at 30 to 75mph. The injector guys say its probably the age of the fuel in the tank , so old its still burning in the exhaust manifold. The past owner had all sorts of crap junk cures from a western trip, added auto electric fan , and water sprayer for the radiator to get up hills. Guess 210 intermittant HP at 2600rpm is marginal for the weight of this beauty. The swop would be to bring the coach out of the 70's and into the 90's , although the current (claimed 10 -11 mpg)would go up another mpg or two , the real reason for the swop would be driveability. If 210 marginal hp is replaced with 350 Cont hp , and the retarder can lower us down the big bumps , we can just drive it like a car, 75 up hill, 75 down hill, with complete safety. Sounds OK to me, FF | ||
| ned sanders (Uncle_ned)
Registered Member Username: Uncle_ned Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.213.111.136 Rating: N/A |
Fred You need to talk to Dave Lang. He is the guy with the ISM Cummings in his flex. ned sanders | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60 Rating: N/A |
Fred if you follow this link I uploaded the Flxliner maintenance manual. I have to beleive the torsalistic values for the flxliner and VL are similar. Since it is fairly large you need to download all the files listed into one directory then run the executable and it will merge them back into a single pdf http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/flxowners/files/SERVICE%20DEP%27T/FlxLiner/ Tim | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 442 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
A 740 with overdrive? G | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 390 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.40.147 Rating: N/A |
FF is there a place you can buy parts for the torsalistic on a Flx have a friend that needs a front one | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 173 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60 Rating: N/A |
There is a guy up hear near Atlanta from the Flx board that said he has 6 sets of front tubes. Here is his email dubledeuce@earthlink.net He owns a VL and has other spares as well. If that is a dead end there is a guy named Mario in CA who orders Flx parts out of Mexico where Dina built Flxliners up through the mid 80's dinabus87@yahoo.com (Message edited by timb on May 22, 2008) (Message edited by timb on May 22, 2008) | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 392 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.40.147 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Tim we were told that the parts from Eagles are the same but they aren't | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1144 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: |
allison 740 overdrive? Seehttp://www.industrialautomatic.com/html/htspecs.htm | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 348 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.136 Rating: N/A |
Da Book for my 1970ish HT740 version shows a 5th gear that IS an OD.And has a retarder. Thanks Tim , I will download it at the library (were on dial up) and have them print it out. Does it include a parts section? FF (Message edited by fast_fred on May 23, 2008) | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.60 Rating: N/A |
Fred yes it does have a parts section everything down to the rivets in the skin. Like I said it's for the flxliner but I'm sure there is a lot of crossover with the VL and certainly the maintenance procedures for adjusting the suspension etc should be the same. The whole thing is about 10 Mg | ||
| Tom Yaegle (Tom_5c)
Registered Member Username: Tom_5c Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.169.118.50 Rating: N/A |
Fred, I have an extra shaft. 13 11/16 closed to 17 7/16 opened center to center of u joints. I removed the flange from my drive shaft and put a u joint yoke on the back of my 740, it saved some length. I can't just drop the drive shaft now,flange on one end only. I talked to a Allison shop at lenght and never heard of a overdrive in a 740 or 750 trans. Goodluck Tom Y | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1148 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
Fred, you better do some more looking. I've never seen an overdrive in those Allisons. 740-4 speed; 750-5 speed, both direct. You may be looking at an older Allison model that isn't a 740 series. The 740 is 2nd, 3rd, and 4th basically the same as a 730 angle drive 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I remember that Allison had some other trans in the 60's and 70's that possibly had overdrive, but can't remember the model numbers. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 757 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.3.173.51  Rating: N/A |
I seem to recal an older Allison model 70, but can't find any information on it. Jack | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1150 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
I think it was something like ht70 or h70 or something like that. It's going to be a problem finding parts though if you need them. Modern engine with obsolete transmission. Change rear axle to ratio you need and use a 740 or 750. 3:36 or 3:08? Or stay with what it has and rebuild if necessary. Add a low boost turbo and gain 150ft lbs of torque and maybe 50 hp. Takes care of the high altitude also. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 261 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Fred I reread your post and decided to get my hands dirty once more. The length measured from center to center on the U joints is a very short 9 7/8 inches with the shaft in its shortest position. The yoke measures 5 1/2 inches on the outside. Hope this helps. Joe. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: |
Fred If we ever get to meet face to face, it will cost you at least a cup of coffee. Joe. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.70 Rating: N/A |
f we ever get to meet face to face, it will cost you at least a cup of coffee. From 1 Nov to about 1 May were in Ortona Fl , 15 miles south of Lake O'. Only a 15A plug in but you wake to see the gators in the canal. Come on down , but leash your dog , gator breakfast! FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 353 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.209 Rating: N/A |
I have Da Book here and the tranny is an HT70 from the 1970's era. It started life in a fire truck , and was eventually transplanted into a coach (eagle?). Since it has an SAE 1 and will take the Ser 50 Hit should do ok. Input 350HP, 775ft lb at 2500rpm. Unknown is the choice of std or oprional gear choices. Std w/1.31 steps .. Optional w/1.41 steps 1 3.000....... 1 4.00 2 2.277....... 2 2.824 3 1.731 ....... 3 2.00 4 1.313....... 4 1.412 5 1.000....... 5 1.000 6 .759 ....... 6 .706 R 2.846 ....... R 4.769 Downside , basic weight 1000lbs! and about 36 in long. Should do fine with a 30,000 lb coach , and has a retarder. Sad that it has lots of PTO that I havent figured out what to do with. FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1153 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
Fred, if you use that transmission, you might want to freshen up the internals, esp. the clutch piston lip seals. They tend to harden over time and not seal as well, esp when not up to temp. OR you could change the rear and put in 50,an angle drive with electronic vr730 and 3:55 rear from a 4104. 3:55 X .875=3.10. If you want economy, why not a Roadranger RTO9509. Or an Automate manual. Maybe that could solve length issues. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1159 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
Fred: here's more info for you:http://www.copelandintl.com/allison/CLBT-4000/clbt-4inf.htm | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1160 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
Went to Roadranger site and looked around- Auto shift uses clutch when starting and stopping; Ultra shift needs no clutch linkage- totally automatic with added driver control. Neither needs shift lever, just a automatic trans like control joy stick. Weight 650 lbs and only 29.9 inches long. Computer can be setup to work with electronic engines. 10 speeds or more. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 354 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 208.100.193.233 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, but this setup is for a project, FLX VL-100 not for the Sports car. I watched the conversion of a Sports car to ser: 50 and although it fits the work is horrific. The owner wants "IT ALL" so the HP will be screwed to the max , and both retarder and Jake will be used to slow the beast. This required a huge amount of welding in much of the shell interior , not so much for the HP, but mostly for the retarder (400HP ) and Jake , (another 250HP) that the frame has to eat. The work was so huge , requiring the roof and much of the interior to be removed that I started to look for a different style of coach to bring into the 21st century. I really love driving my Sportscar , but reality (age/health) intrudes so the swop of machines becomes more realistic. Also I know the Eagle guys have a grand time , just listening to the coach rust , so can join them round the campfire with a disoving frame FLX. After its finished , hopefully in a year , the trusty Sportscar will go on the block. Hopefully it will go to someone in a movie making area NY, LA, Toronto as the exterior is stock , as is the area b behind the driver, so she can continue the EZ work of being a movie ,TV prop. Plan D is to simply stuff a 730 in the Sportscar , but 6 or 7 mpg will be hard to take with $6.00 diesel. Roadranger Weight 650 lbs and only 29.9 inches long. Computer can be setup to work with electronic engines. 10 speeds or more. The fear here is it may take $5000, just to get the computers to talk to each other, as I;m not a computer guy. FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1161 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.48.228 Rating: N/A |
The electronics on the 50 series are the same as used on the 60 series. The trans are already used on the 60 series. Buy a takeout auto or ultra shift trans from a truck with a 60 series and all the harnesses and computer from it and can't get any easier. Don't be afraid of the electronics; same systems as have been used in cars for last several years, just different sensors.And what a sweet setup.At least that Flex'll look different and should make a nice conversion. |
